Arelith

Shrouded Wanderer wrote: Mon Mar 09, 2020 3:38 am

Zavandar wrote: Mon Mar 09, 2020 3:14 am

Shrouded Wanderer wrote: Mon Mar 09, 2020 3:11 am Would be great if these spells had these damages if, and only if the caster was a shadow mage, and give them a damage reduction if casted using the weave.

a non-shadowmage wouldn't be using these spells for damage. the ONLY exception would be darkbolt. non-shadowmages have igms.

I'm confused.

So did you always have a problem with shadow conjuration?

please read my post above. you did make me realize that i mislabelled shadow conj as shadow evo and forgot to assess shadow evo. i'll do that now.

Seems that, yes, these spells are OP. The same thing happened with the last set of spells. It wasn't two weeks before a wave of nerfs came through and now no one complains about them.

However, the relation with shadowmage is a bigger issue. Basically, it opens up higher DC spells from illusion that were on their barred lists. It also gives them access to direct damage. It would be on par with saying that spellswords could suddenly get access to summons if they burned a spell slot higher to have the same summon.

chris a gogo wrote: Mon Mar 09, 2020 2:30 am Give it a week then if it stays as is roll up a shadow mage they will be the new apex predators.

The problem with this and why it wasn't as big a deal with the current apex, Spellsword (?) is that this class requires a very specific RP. You have to be a sharran. You have to do what Sharran's do. It should not be RP'ed as anything else.

There is another class that is massively OP but has to be played in a very specific capacity - Harper. That class is locked behind a gate with an application. Perhaps that is the direction Shadowmage should take if it stays so powerful. Limit their numbers and actually expect players to play a sharran and not choose it for the power.

Imagine that on top of all of this you're also dealing with HIPS.

Would shadowmages even be able to cast darkbolt, as it is an Evocation spell?

BHR55 wrote: Mon Mar 09, 2020 1:05 am Darkbolt can be used by shadow mages

and since he is presumably the dev behind this, it's probably how it works

Zavandar wrote: Mon Mar 09, 2020 10:11 am

BHR55 wrote: Mon Mar 09, 2020 1:05 am Darkbolt can be used by shadow mages

and since he is presumably the dev behind this, it's probably how it works

Nice.. Well, I assume these new spells will be towed in line, just as the previous spell additions did.

Zavandar wrote: Mon Mar 09, 2020 10:11 am

BHR55 wrote: Mon Mar 09, 2020 1:05 am Darkbolt can be used by shadow mages

and since he is presumably the dev behind this, it's probably how it works

When you see the player of a spellsword pointing to other classes cous op

Nobs wrote: Mon Mar 09, 2020 11:02 am

Zavandar wrote: Mon Mar 09, 2020 10:11 am

BHR55 wrote: Mon Mar 09, 2020 1:05 am Darkbolt can be used by shadow mages

and since he is presumably the dev behind this, it's probably how it works

When you see the player of a spellsword pointing to other classes cous op

That's not really contributing to the feedback thread. Ad hominem is uncool.

Deleted as my math was off.

(Edited)

Naiinara wrote: Mon Mar 09, 2020 1:11 am Freeze I think was conjuration too. Freeze even makes someone weak to fire. I wouldn't want to get hit with flame arrow then.

Freeze is Druid only though.

I played a spellsword since before the lore changes went in, and I actually play one of the weaker variants of it, nobs

Meanwhile you rolled a hips build post change

Anyway

2d8 per darkbolt, 7 bolts, so 7x2x8 for 112 damage. Meanwhile igms is 2d6 per missile hit can fire 10 into a single target. 10x2x6 for 120. Both can be maximized and that's what the calculation assumes. The only "saving grace" is that each dark bolt has a touch attack it must succeed. It checks the will save vs daze only once per cast, though. This is what I've been told anyway

Zavandar wrote: Mon Mar 09, 2020 12:03 pm I played a spellsword since before the lore changes went in, and I actually play one of the weaker variants of it, nobs

Meanwhile you rolled a hips build post change

Anyway

2d8 per darkbolt, 7 bolts, so 7x2x8 for 112 damage. Meanwhile igms is 2d6 per missile hit can fire 10 into a single target. 10x2x6 for 120. Both can be maximized and that's what the calculation assumes. The only "saving grace" is that each dark bolt has a touch attack it must succeed. It checks the will save vs daze only once per cast, though. This is what I've been told anyway

Ah, you're correct. I should stop doing math before getting my morning coffee.

Zavandar wrote: Mon Mar 09, 2020 12:03 pm I played a spellsword since before the lore changes went in, and I actually play one of the weaker variants of it, nobs

Meanwhile you rolled a hips build post change

Anyway

2d8 per darkbolt, 7 bolts, so 7x2x8 for 112 damage. Meanwhile igms is 2d6 per missile hit can fire 10 into a single target. 10x2x6 for 120. Both can be maximized and that's what the calculation assumes. The only "saving grace" is that each dark bolt has a touch attack it must succeed. It checks the will save vs daze only once per cast, though. This is what I've been told anyway

Dont think any thing changed for my build as i can still use all the stuff i was using before that

Also if you dont like to get RTA's hit you cast imp invis for that 50% miss

stay on topic and cease your childishness, please

Zavandar wrote: Mon Mar 09, 2020 12:24 pm stay on topic and cease your childishness, please

Was just responding to you chief.

dust of visibility can be used for invis purge, and is an item anyone can use that is also readily available

Nobs wrote: Mon Mar 09, 2020 12:25 pm Was just responding to you chief.

Nobs wrote: Mon Mar 09, 2020 11:02 am When you see the player of a spellsword pointing to other classes cous op

This post is to illustrate the advantage shadow mages have over regular mages because of HiPS, when casting darkbolt.

Assuming the go-to shadow mage build versus a STR-based non-div melee with uncanny dodge:
which comes down to:
Against a standard STR-based divbuild without uncanny dodge that would be:
which adds up to:
Lastly, against a dex-based melee:
which translates to:
It is very clear that this spell is much more valuable in the hands of a shadow mage than in those of a regular caster, owing mostly to access to HiPS, with which they can induce flat-footedness in their target very easily (see the recent, locked HiPS thread for an explanation on the how-to: viewtopic.php?p=215905#p215905).

nevermind the fact it can be done in time stop and is not countered by the shield spell

Moreover, once a target is dazed, they will very likely remain flat-footed during, which means you'll be given another darkbolt cast (or potentially two, if caster is hasted) at flat-footed AC.

I'd also like to point out the irony in a calling me out for being a spellsword asking for nerfs, when this spell is GOOD for spellswords because they get ab and blind fight

Shadow mages do a little bit more damage with Darkbolt too, though it is very little. "Users of the Shadow Weave deal 1/2 their caster level ( up to 7) in additional damage with this spell."
Each bolt also rolls a touch attack to hit, it's not 1 roll for the whole attack.

also does UV counter shadow plague blind? cause if it’s like inc cloud/world of faith which are two blinding spells that shadowmages cant use...

even if UV counters it i’d still find it funny that it exists. i will be honest and say that i appreciate your hard work bhr55 and i understand why you would want to create stuff for you to enjoy but this isn’t it.

you took a class with a very clear direction and trade off (direct damage for high DC and hips) but then jumped on the sourcebooks to justify adding just what this path lacks: direct damage (darkbolt being the biggest concern but all the other spells contributing, even in minor ways).

it doesn’t help that you say “we can all enjoy this” when you play the class that benefits the most from this (and it is the only one that really does since you were targetting shadowmage’s weaknesses considering all other mages have enough damage but no hips or higher DC).

if you consider the lack of direct damage a design flaw, then recognize that the entirety of the path is flawed and act accordingly. lack of direct damage was a single aspect of what makes the whole shadowmage path, yet you only addressed that (a weakness) and didn’t even bother to tweak all the boons this class gets in exchange.

Wait, where does it say shadow weave users do MORE damage with it??

that's not in the forums update thread