PVE Dispel too often // Lv28 Mundane Char

[garrbear758]

Wrong.

What I said about items is how it works as of a few months ago. Beamdog fixed that "bug."

Is this an Arelith only fix? (Or a NWNX fix?)

Do you have a link to Beamdog fixing it? I can't find anything!

It certainly works the way Kalopsia described in SP testing.

You use your character level, until you cast, at which point your caster level gets updated.
Then you use your caster level for everything after, until it gets updated again.

So a 27/3 fighter/wizard would have +3 to their dispel check on everything if they cast light naturally, as oppose to +30.

Testing

CHL- Character Level (Provided using an item buff)
CL - Caster Level

> Setting a dispel effect to 1CL, you get a maximum roll of 21 (using the standard spellsDispelMagic)
> You are able to be dispelled at both CHL 1 and CL 1.
> Creating a Bard 1 / Barbarian 29, you have a CHL30 and CL1 (for natural casts)
> You are not able to be dispelled by the dispel effect at CHL 30, if you haven't cast naturally.
> Despite being CHL30, once you cast at CL1, all buffs (Both natural and from items) after are dispellable

I'd presume it's similar to the problem with GetCasterLevel, which has had the same behaviour forever, in that it returns the caster level of the last spell you've cast. Unless you haven't cast anything, in which case it returns 0.

Interesting. Jack Oat and I both tested it a few months ago and it was working as I explained. Maybe I'm wrong though. It is also possible the .9 update broke it. I'll hop on PGCC to verify and get back to yall with proof either way.

[garrbear758]

So, I can confirm there is definitely an issue with dispels. We are looking into it, but it is likely on Beamdog's end. I can confirm that we have not changed anything on our end regarding dispels. Lesser dispel on PGCC was able to consistently dispel potions both before and after casting. Tested on a 25 fighter 5 wizard that had never cast a spell prior to the test.

[garrbear758]

After further testing, here's where we're at.

So, dispels themselves work fine. Character CL vs dispels has changed very significantly.
It appears mundane levels no longer count towards your dispel CL at all.
Pure caster was immune to lower dispels as it should be.
Pure mundane got spells stripped by everything, including lesser dispel which they should be immune to.
25 Mundane 5 Caster was the same as mundane both before and after casting spells.

[Void]

After further testing, here's where we're at.

So, dispels themselves work fine. Character CL vs dispels has changed very significantly.
It appears mundane levels no longer count towards your dispel CL at all.
Pure caster was immune to lower dispels as it should be.
Pure mundane got spells stripped by everything, including lesser dispel which they should be immune to.
25 Mundane 5 Caster was the same as mundane both before and after casting spells.

There's a small chance that they made it work the same way as it does PnP, meaning the item has its own caster level and forgot to tell anyone about it.

Or they just broke it and caster level is assumed to be zero for item cast.

Latest update notes said that "They unhardcoded bunch of stuff", that must be what broke it.

[garrbear758]

After further testing, here's where we're at.

So, dispels themselves work fine. Character CL vs dispels has changed very significantly.
It appears mundane levels no longer count towards your dispel CL at all.
Pure caster was immune to lower dispels as it should be.
Pure mundane got spells stripped by everything, including lesser dispel which they should be immune to.
25 Mundane 5 Caster was the same as mundane both before and after casting spells.

There's a small chance that they made it work the same way as it does PnP, meaning the item has its own caster level and forgot to tell anyone about it.

Or they just broke it and caster level is assumed to be zero for item cast.

Latest update notes said that "They unhardcoded bunch of stuff", that must be what broke it.

We actually just tested that using a variety of items. Mundane CL is defaulting to 0. I may have a fix, but I'm not entirely sure if it'll work until I can test it. I think the issue is a new line in classes.2da when they added custom spellbooks that is a CL multiplier, and I believe it is defaulting to 0 for non casters.

[Sockss]

Ahh, I was testing in oldstable, makes sense if they broke it in the latest patch!

[Sockss]

Just to check. This is being fixed by making sure we're using the following logic for non-innate casting:

Caster level is used if you have cast.
Character level is used if you have not.

If this is 'fixed' by using character level for consumables, always, then it's going to be a humongous shift in balance and also have the very odd effect of making near all consumable buffs better then innate casting buffs.

[Archnon]

Just to check. This is being fixed by making sure we're using the following logic for non-innate casting:

Caster level is used if you have cast.
Character level is used if you have not.

If this is 'fixed' by using character level for consumables, always, then it's going to be a humongous shift in balance and also have the very odd effect of making near all consumable buffs better then innate casting buffs.

I had thought beamdog already made that shift? With the release of EE

[Sockss]

Just to check. This is being fixed by making sure we're using the following logic for non-innate casting:

Caster level is used if you have cast.
Character level is used if you have not.

If this is 'fixed' by using character level for consumables, always, then it's going to be a humongous shift in balance and also have the very odd effect of making near all consumable buffs better then innate casting buffs.

I had thought beamdog already made that shift? With the release of EE

No, it's been 1.69 rules until this patch. (Whether that was intended or not)

[Quidix]

Just to check. This is being fixed by making sure we're using the following logic for non-innate casting:

Caster level is used if you have cast.
Character level is used if you have not.

If this is 'fixed' by using character level for consumables, always, then it's going to be a humongous shift in balance and also have the very odd effect of making near all consumable buffs better then innate casting buffs.

I had thought beamdog already made that shift? With the release of EE

Agreed, since EE and until recent 'issue', I believe the default was to use character level even after casting.

Either way - would be good to have a clearly stated version of how it works once a fix is in place.

Really appreciate this being looked in to!

[Sockss]

No, no, that's incorrect.

To clarify, since EE and forever, the default for dispel CL on non-innate casting was to use CASTER LEVEL after casting, not character level. (Character level was only ever used if the PC had not naturally cast a spell.)

I don't know where all this misinformation has come from. There was no change in EE.

Prior to the unintended consequences of the last patch, the ONLY change that Beamdog has made to dispels is: "Dispel Check calculation now takes a tie as a remove effect, as specified in the Player’s Handbook." which was a launch change.

[satan]

I've noticed the drider clerics suddenly became very nasty for my low level after the last patch. Their spells hit no matter what...remove curse scrolls are breaking his bank lol

[Archnon]

Is it safe to suggest to people to play on the last version of NWN to avoid this problem until a solution comes through?

[satan]

Pretty sure this is all server side stuff..also not sure you could play arelith with a non matching version

[garrbear758]

Correct. This is a server side issue.

[Sockss]

Just so this isn't glossed over, because it will make a huge difference.

I understand a fix is being worked on but it's important that it's not being changed to what a few people thought it was, rather what it actually was.

Just to check. This is being fixed by making sure we're using the following logic for non-innate casting:

Caster level is used if you have cast.
Character level is used if you have not.

If this is 'fixed' by using character level for consumables, always, then it's going to be a humongous shift in balance and also have the very odd effect of making near all consumable buffs better then innate casting buffs.

[Biolab00]

Actually, i'm replying this thread to confirm again if the current way dispel works is as intended.

This is because if the dispel is now based on the "caster level of the Item" such as
Potion of Bull Strength (3), which means a "Caster level of 3" instead of the previous mundane level, it is going to screw up quite a couple of my toon due to the reliance on these potions.

I've currently found myself being easily dispelled even by a "Lesser dispel spell" and the usual dungeon and bosses that i've no issue with fighting are now filled with many uncertain probabilities.

It even happens to the point whereby a single "lesser dispel" that strip me off the barkskin potion, dexterity potion and strength potion which makes my AC falls below par when being attacked by a group of viper monks or giants and resulted in me dying a few times.
It happens sometimes with shit luck that the vampires have lesser dispel on touch and just dispel my negative protection potion and level drain me in the next attack.

Sometimes, i also died because the boss doesn't dispel, but the generated low level creep have a normal dispel and just that single spell make me lose the fight.

The point of the dispel that frustrates me is that it dispel everything entirely, including skleen which doesn't used to be able to be easily dispelled. And worse still, by a lesser dispel spell.

I'm pretty gloomy actually.
If this is the way it is intended to work, i'll likely have to make a new toon now.

[Sockss]

There's an EE introduced bug at the moment, it's not intended.

Essentially, you have 0 CL if you don't have an innate casting class.

(As opposed to previously in which you would use your character level for items. Unless you used innate casting, in which case you'd use the CL of the last class you used to cast, for items.)

[Biolab00]

That's good to know. I'll just have to make do for now ^';...;'^

[Sockss]

Are there any updates on this?

I'd be happy to advise how to make a custom dispel function or do it.

The majority of classes being murdered by a dispel wand isn't great and needing a caster level to be relevant is odd.

[Void]

Are there any updates on this?

I'd be happy to advise how to make a custom dispel function or do it.

The majority of classes being murdered by a dispel wand isn't great and needing a caster level to be relevant is odd.

Like in nwn2 dispel is implemented in a script, and the function call responsible for it could be replaced by an alternative. However, given that this is taking a while, a good idea would be to start developing strategies that can cope with being constantly dispelled.

[Sockss]

It'd be super easy just to make your own with the EE TagEffect and GetEffectTag functions.

You can just tag effects with a CL.
Which you'd get from a localint on PC's.
Which you'd update in the spellhook.
If the CL was 0 you'd use character level instead, you'd also add +CL vs dispel like AD:Abj.
Then you loop through effects, do the dispel roll on each and remove the effect if it beats it.

The only thing that would really take time is changing all spell effects to use the CL wrapper.

I wanted to bump because this is a huge, huge issue. Mundane classes are completely useless right now.

[BaRKyy]

Can we get some word on this from the devs? Is anything being done?

Thans

[Zaphiel]

Any news on this? And I believe a spellhook script can be attached to be fired when a spell cast than editing all scripts one by one.

[Void]

It'd be super easy just to make your own with the EE TagEffect and GetEffectTag functions.

You can just tag effects with a CL.
Which you'd get from a localint on PC's.
Which you'd update in the spellhook.
If the CL was 0 you'd use character level instead, you'd also add +CL vs dispel like AD:Abj.
Then you loop through effects, do the dispel roll on each and remove the effect if it beats it.

The only thing that would really take time is changing all spell effects to use the CL wrapper.

I wanted to bump because this is a huge, huge issue. Mundane classes are completely useless right now.

I was talking abour traditional refactoring. Dispel is processed as a single call somewhere, so tracking down that function, replacing it with your own version that treats caster level properly won't take too long.