Arelith

They still hadn't fixed like few writs. Hey at least they scaled the worst writ up by 4 levels. Still borked tho. Derro dudes.
Outcasts is a mistake. Still is. I'm fairly sure the DMs will be happily willing to point you few of their threads based on the responses made to Outcast, especially for the reason it was elevated to an award status. A throwback to DM Rex's post on viewtopic.php?f=37&t=27975&p=221755 with this quote;

The tags were implemented to ensure people would not loaf about on the surface in plain sight which was seen a lot. Without the tags people didn't roleplay as being an outcast as often, and simply behaved as a 'person with access'.

This thread shouldn't be derailed for outcast-talk, otherwise this thread is going to get locked because of it. We've explored too much on Outcasts, and end-all-be-all is simply this; Outcasts roleplayed not being outcast despite being warned that they're outcast, and ignored the outcast stigma attached to their character. Therefore driving that community made a choice, and ignored the consequences. DMs cannot monitor every outcasts, and judge whenever or not to delete the outcast character, or not. They have life, a job, and other things to do. They can't monitor a bloody hundred and fifty players average a day with hawk-like perspective.
I didn't exactly establish a stance, nor did I partaken in it. I ain't saying thing.
This is going to be tied into stagnation. So we're going to skip over updates for Stagnation.

This one is to be blamed on the poor decision of the creation of Andunor overall. The lack of expansion, the suffocation that led to not being able to go beyond. Every district is essentially their own city, but is just a rock-throwing distance of one another. Which essentially boils down to 'Hey we can't do anything really'. If a player 'rocks' the boat, they will be enemy of Andunor for several weeks, and unable to do anything, cannot progress, cannot get to haven. And will just get camped until almost everybody killed that player and cannot kill them again within 24-hours restriction.

The issue of stagnation isn't just because communities decided to get together to defend Andunor. It's because there is Just Andunor.

Literally Just Andunor. In fact. Slap this quote onto my door.

Just Andunor.

There is no other districts, no other cities. Just Andunor. No other haven, no other escapades. just Andunor. What, you mean that Svirf village? Nobody else can go there. So Just Andunor. Oh yeah, what else? Oh yeah. Just Andunor.

Literally the only Underdark City in all of Underdark content. On Surface, a player got a bit more lee-way with what they want to do. But on Andunor. Nope. Just Andunor.

The stagnation is caused by simply the lack of any other places to be. They shoehorned Andunor's role as trading city, and led us down to having one global-city for all of Underdarkers. Just Andunor.

There need to be another city to allow players to get away from Just Andunor lifestyle. As it stands, it limits the growth of the players greatly.

Open Sibayad to Underdark-races again. Burn the signs that people misread as permission to kill us. Drown the elves and paladins who disturb the trade so we may bathe in peace.

I would love if the Great Grotto was turned into second UD-settlement.

Does another city really solve the issue? If another PC-led city were created: what would stop a character getting excluded from both?

Surely the easiest solution is to change cities from being a binary Inclusion/Exclusion to a trinary Inclusion/Fringe/Exclusion?

i.e. It should be difficult to exclude/exile characters immediately or entirely.
i.e. There should be an Underclass area in each city. This should be large enough / porous enough that non-desireables can enter, and as long as they can "keep their head down" through appropriate RP ( or not get caught) they can exist. Though the living standards might not be ideal, etc. And good luck getting into the desireable wards of the city without proper aids, RP etc.

Sure - the server itself could change and new areas and stuff added. Or maybe things need to be taken away or RP itself needs to adapt.

I don't think add, add, add, is always the right way to go.

-- Tath.

I'm convinced that the outcast tag system has a significant role in contributing to these issues. What Skibbles said in their post about conflict and intrigue on the surface comes to mind.

Tathkar Eisgrim wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 11:58 am what would stop a character getting excluded from both?

It depends on why the player would do something to get excluded from BOTH cities.

Tathkar Eisgrim wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 11:58 am i.e. It should be difficult to exclude/exile characters immediately or entirely.
i.e. There should be an Underclass area in each city. This should be large enough / porous enough that non-desireables can enter, and as long as they can "keep their head down" through appropriate RP ( or not get caught) they can exist. Though the living standards might not be ideal, etc. And good luck getting into the desireable wards of the city without proper aids, RP etc.

Which will never properly happen for as long as Divining [Read -Scry] exists. If anyone want to see you dead. They would simply need the name of your character, and -scry away. People usually search hunt parties for these kind of situation. Only way to avoid this is with FOIG, and alternative methods and heavy-handed moderation which will cut down the F U N in your character.

Overall, most important is this;

Tathkar Eisgrim wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 11:58 amDoes another city really solve the issue?

The DMs won't add another city. If you've been observing, and reading the forum for long period of time. This is pretty much held quite some forum threads --That I can't find-- but it's definitely a conversation at one point.

The Underdarkers' activity is contained to just one place in all of Underdark. Where there's no real safe haven for people shaking things up in Andunor, because if they shakes anything up. They'll be hunted almost immediately because of how self-contained it is in Andunor. There is no other places. There is no other locations. They're just stuck outside of Andunor, and have no where to truly belong. It doesn't apply AS much to Surface because there is still a place for surfacer to go to [Read: If player is exiled from Cordor, They can just go to Guldorand, Myon, Bendir dale, etc] whereas players in Andunor cannot really avoid Andunor because it's all there is.

It's Just Andunor. Nothing else, nothing more. Just Andunor. The underdarkers are contained to literally the only place that hold them, and they don't get any varieties of location to explore unlike the surfacers which have aplenty of cities.

And then there's takeover discussion. Which amuses me. It's been a discussion for while, and no Underdarkers group ever bothered to take over any cities to convert it into UD city.

Every time I have noticed there be any sort of takeover discussion, even joking about it, (mostly in discord groups or any group chat oocly) the ending note is that people will, every single time I have witnessed, go "Well, they'll just Wharftown it if we try."

EDIT: I'd love some sort of place for outcasts to go to that isn't just cricket caves (which is within a city controlled area, so not even that) or outright "you have to be okay with monsters, slaves, torture, cannibalism" town.

Outcast doesn't mean someone has lost all of their morals. It doesn't mean they're evil. It doesn't mean they're undead summoners or fiend consorters.

Anyone wonder about the amount of elven slaves in Andunor? Well, they absolutely won't be outcasts there, because with the exception of /very/ few that started out as slaves, an elven outcast or even half elven would basically be unplayable.

Hell, give it NPC government if need be so we don't have Wharftown Declares War On Surface 2: The Electric Boogaloo, or make it a shanty town with just quarters and people getting mugged in the alley and a bank.

The idea of an Upperdark Trading Town is great, that maybe isn't "welcome to vacation town full of all the evilest evil" but is more about an actual trade city, with quarters and shops, and similar guard rules as surface cities about not attacking others due to disrupting trade. And leave Andunor to the powers of whatever the hell people guide it to be through rp.

Some place with clear cut guidelines on how it should be.

Right now, Andunor is presented as a Trade City with Trade Central (the hub) and Three Districts with laws, exiles, leaders, as the hardass "follow our rules".

But the Hub isn't free of that, people get accused of being spies, etc, etc, you can't go freely to trade.

EDIT 2: Similarly if we're going to keep Andunor as "be outcast or die" there should be a more realistic way to check outcasts. as well as making it a bit more difficult. Maybe like an IG bounty office or something where you can go to enter someone's name and check if there's any record of them, rather than a tag

Or maybe only show the outcast tag when within a settlement, to nod back to GrumpyCat's idea of talking about NPCs avoiding that person.

Multiple times someone has said "well they don't speak undercommon so they must be a surfacer spy" or "they're not outcast, must be surfacer spy despite them walking around with a pit fiend" without thinking about what were people BEFORE they became outcasts?

It all sounds like the status quo needs a good shake.

It also sounds like Scrying needs a big nerf.



-- Tath.

Aradin wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 10:26 pm I'm of the opinion that the Underdark needs to take itself less seriously. Sure we're monsters and dark elves and bad guys, but we don't need to be doom and gloom and conflict and strife all the time. Laughter and fun and quirks and inventions and juggling and dancing and goofing around in character translates to fun out of character. Andunor is an edgy place and it doesn't need to stop being edgy, but give it a little vivacity and fun! Without new ideas, the stagnation will only get worse.

There are a few things written in this thread that made me wonder whether in the last few months I played in some sort of pocket dimension instead than in Andunor but this is the one that struck me as the oddest. Perhaps I am misunderstanding the point made but personally I have seen many putatively serious characters, even within the Temple "faction", make often funny gags and quips in the appropriate situation. I believe a degree of comical outlook is necessary to balance the gloomy nature of the Underdark setting, with dark humour being particularly fitting in my opinion, and that's how I have always played my monstrous character even before arriving on Arelith.

Petrifictus wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 9:44 am Please keep Outcasts as reward.
Andunor needs more drows, duergars, deep gnomes and monsters. Their Numbers grew when humans were locked and made Underdark feel Underdark.
If we unlock Outcasts, you do more damage to others.

Also as dedicated monster player, I say you’re very wrong by saying that monster RP is one dimensional.

I also cannot agree more with what was expressed here, especially on the last point. In my experience in Andunor so far I have been amazed at seeing the multi-faceted and ever-original ways with which monster characters are played. This is particularly true for some of the bestial races, for instance it is incredible how no two kobolds are alike, but it is true to a good degree for all the Underdark races, up and including drow, duergar and even deep gnomes.

My impression of human rp in the Underdark was that, with the few due exceptions, these characters tended to be variations of the human villain and a good number of these characters did not show in their behaviour any awareness of the fact of being in the Underdark. What I am trying to say is that, even when the characters were roleplayed well, they did not feel like /Underdark/ characters, they just seemed neutral or evil humans who played in some evil-friendly town... on the surface.

And the necessary result of this is that essentially they dilute the setting. These types of characters would probably be way more enriching to the Underdark, and the server as a whole, as outside allies or anyway neutral parties to Andunor than as residents, in my humble opinion.

Petrifictus wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 11:25 am Open Sibayad to Underdark-races again. Burn the signs that people misread as permission to kill us. Drown the elves and paladins who disturb the trade so we may bathe in peace.

This will never be changed. UD is not going to be accepted in Sibayad. Only ever tolerated, and it's a come at your own risk situation.

People are nervous about threads getting locked? Don't be.
Don't attack each other, explore ideas, and threads can remain well open.

The UD is -not- the surface and that's a good thing, it doesn't need bake sales every week, or weddings etc. There is a large amount of RP that is happening, but it simply just doesn't happen as publicly, but there's nothing wrong with that. The Kobolds are having their meetings, there's lots of stuff happening with the Drow, the Legion are doing Legion things. It's easy to get involved with factions if you wish, I haven't noticed it being cliquey at all, if anything as a new player a year or so ago up to now, I've found it much easier to find my way in than the surface, which is dominated by, on the whole macro level RP plots that have pre-defined movers and shakers. It's very difficult to get involved in that without weeks and months of effort to establish your character & it's easy to feel overshadowed as a newer character by those that have been around for many years. In the Underdark, at least in my experience, you've always been able to just crop up and either witness RP happening, or get involved in things, because much of the squabble and drama happens in the day to day life on the city. I've seen new characters go from absolutely nothing, to central to large RP plots and drama within a few weeks of their creation. I did not notice the same on the surface, at least when I was leveling characters there. If anything it felt more cliquey to me than the Underdark did.

It seems confusing to have people on the one hand laxing lyrical about how amazing RP is on the surface and then seemingly desperate to be able to go to the Underdark all the time on their characters. The two don't really match up.

From what I've seen, the big issue with the UD is that it's not allowed to be UD enough. Conflict should be less drama-ey OOC & have less stigma attached to it. It seems people want more RP, but RP that doesn't end up in violence, but that is a heavy part of playing in a monster driven setting. You're surrounded by monsters who don't take kindly to being belittled/insulted and are deeply defensive over their beliefs and culture etc that also think themselves superior to most of the surface races. To say they are one-dimensional is a little insulting to all the players that have created very deep and rich RP, the Kobolds would be a great example. Their -appearences- can be a little restricted, due to the models, but the RP isn't.

Yes, it's a trade city, but then so is every city in reality on the surface too, that doesn't mean they allow Drow to go there simply because it's actively trading. Andunor is a trade city within the Underdark, so certain UD tensions are not as strong there, but having it basically being a human settlement just below the surface was always lame to me. People seem to constantly not be able to make up their mind over whether they want it to be buddy-buddy or a wild west town where everyone fends for themselves.

The one thing that seems to remain consistent though is that humans/surface players do seem to want the ability to be able to just pop in whenever they want with no issue though, whilst monsters get one lined hostiled and put into the dirt the second they step foot above. I guess it's natural, it is rich in the resources people need and it's a fun place to be and people never like to feel like they are missing out, but the fact the UD is cut off from the surface, as it should be will develop interesting RP repercussions, they will just take time to evolve as these changes filter through.

As the player of a Svirf, I can confirm that I've come into a lot of interesting role-play that revolves around our ability to be allowed to be one of the few races allowed to trade with both areas, but the one things I've noticed in the UD is that yes, there are less huge arching plot story-lines that seem to have been semi-organised in the way they play out and their ambitions, but it is a reactive place to RP. Things happen that you don't expect, you are able to RP freely and naturally as the character/monster you choose and as long as people see a clear reason for your reaction, are on the whole fine with it. There has always been an issue with groups 'holding onto' property and old characters mysteriously coming back to vote for people etc, but those are not RP issues, they are humans playing the system and that exists everywhere.

Itikar wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 2:50 pm

Aradin wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 10:26 pm I'm of the opinion that the Underdark needs to take itself less seriously. Sure we're monsters and dark elves and bad guys, but we don't need to be doom and gloom and conflict and strife all the time. Laughter and fun and quirks and inventions and juggling and dancing and goofing around in character translates to fun out of character. Andunor is an edgy place and it doesn't need to stop being edgy, but give it a little vivacity and fun! Without new ideas, the stagnation will only get worse.

There are a few things written in this thread that made me wonder whether in the last few months I played in some sort of pocket dimension instead than in Andunor but this is the one that struck me as the oddest. Perhaps I am misunderstanding the point made but personally I have seen many putatively serious characters, even within the Temple "faction", make often funny gags and quips in the appropriate situation. I believe a degree of comical outlook is necessary to balance the gloomy nature of the Underdark setting, with dark humour being particularly fitting in my opinion, and that's how I have always played my monstrous character even before arriving on Arelith.

I might have phrased this poorly. I meant more that of the general goings-on I see in Andunor, it all seems to centre around conflict and combat and strife. I think there's more to life than that, even for monster races. That doesn't mean we need to be doing joyous and flowery activities like surfacers do, I just hope for more variety out of UD culture. More variety = less stagnation.
I fully admit I may be wrong about this, and that I may not have been in the UD long enough to grasp the full, nuanced picture, and that this view may run counter to the vision people have for Andunor, but there's my two cents.

No, I agree, recreational activities and celebrations are part of most Underdark cultures, and they should have perhaps a better presence. I think drow are more guilty of this than the various beastbloods. Mundane topics and gossip do exist in drow rp, from what I have seen, but I have not seen many activities centering around those.

But the Hub isn't free of that, people get accused of being spies, etc, etc, you can't go freely to trade.

I think this is the biggest problem with Andunor. Some monster players take it upon themselves to make Andunor by monsters for monsters and no one else allowed, it's no wonder it's getting stagnant when there's active pushback on outside actors.

As far as other UD settlements, I wish the Trading Post was expanded slightly with a bit more amenities, shops, housing, and a writ giver (moving the level 12+ Grotto writs there and adding maybe 1 more focused on the surrounding area). Maybe even make those writs open to all as technically many surfacers can already grab them now, they just tend not to.

No one starts there but you now have a location you could move to if Andunor grows too hot for your PC and closer to the surface to interact with.

Likewise you'd have a place where a bit more level parity might exist in interactions between surface and UD where interests could align or conflict and build from there.

This isn't meant as a "and then humans should keep out of Andunor!" rather attempting to open up possibilities that can happen sub-30 in addition to what already exists and giving a potential hide-away spot for UD PCs who can't stay in Andunor for whatever reason.

Nitro wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 4:33 pm

But the Hub isn't free of that, people get accused of being spies, etc, etc, you can't go freely to trade.

I think this is the biggest problem with Andunor. Some monster players take it upon themselves to make Andunor by monsters for monsters and no one else allowed, it's no wonder it's getting stagnant when there's active pushback on outside actors.

I don't really see what else you expect them to do? They get beaten down the second they step anywhere outside of the Underdark, almost as a reflex action (there's always very little RP more than 'Monster kill it!" *hostile*) and their natural nature is to distrust and dislike those that could be coming below to kill all of their family/friends and fellow monsters and free their slaves.

This is an RP consequence of the lore and setting. Being suspicious of non-monsters and those that cannot speak the languages is an important aspect of monster races. Why would they not be suspicious? The world is full of races that naturally believe themselves superior and are actively xenophobic. Letting everyone live together making daisy chains in one direction so surface races can do as they like but protect their home lands just doesn't make any sense. It may be getting stagnant in the interests of those who want to further surface race RP below, but the RP for underdark races is as strong as it's ever been.

People are talking like the Underdark has 5 people logging into it. It currently has 50+ players off peak. The numbers seem no different to me than they've been for a long time.

People are really taking my one-dimensional comment in exactly the way I didn't mean it. It's about numbers, not individuals. Fewer players, especially in the heavily segregated manner of monster rp = less opportunity and less variety.

As the population dwindles relative to the surface servers, and as covid recovery eventually starts to drastically lower the overall population of the server, there will be markedly fewer players in the UD and it could threaten to become a self-inflicting downward spiral as its done once or twice already.

Before Andunor it was solely monster races, and it was generally empty.

Then Andunor came, with outcasts, and the UD exploded overnight with tons of players and all the monsters started coming back because there were people to play with again. It was frequently well over the population of surface which I think was the main module at the time.

I simply see it as an established trend that could be returning. Covid does wonders for the game population but it won't be forever. I think this is critical to consider.

The outcast reward lock started March 22nd, almost exactly as quarantine began in the US and I think a little earlier in other parts of the world. Yes we have more monsters now, but we also have over twenty million people without jobs or reduced hours stuck at home - and that's just the US. I really don't think the outcast change has suddenly made more people play monsters. Covid did, and it will end one day, and the UD could be left reeling.

Most people acknowledge the vast majority of RP in Andunor is stellar. I certainly think so.

My concern is in the quantity and the sustainability of engaged population relative to established server history. The UD has absolutely bottomed out before. EE may be able to stop this trend, and I really hope it does, and the numbers will tell us (or rather, the devs) over the next year I think.

Surfacers are not innocent of this. One thing that constantly and consistently amuses me is the,

"DROW/pirates/Banites/undead/abyssals are in x/y/z/ location. SUMMON ALL EPICS. WE MUST ROAM AND FIND THEM AND ???"

This creates a bad culture between surfacers-Andunor because it largely pivots around some sort of violent confrontation. But it's also no one's fault because lore/expectations compel violence - right?

One of the best and brightest things about the Magocracy was that it created an environment of conflict, and for victory, but one that didn't necessarily hinge on PvP - and one that couldn't.

As much I often bemoan "surfacers-UDers cannot sit down have tea and crumpets" there needs to be more cross-pollination. I don't know what is appropriate or "good roleplaying" but I always wonder if there's ways for good-surfacers to get involved in Andunor indirectly. Would "good" Andunor ever align with some of the shady do-gooders of the Radiant?

If Andunor was not unequivocally and irrevocably "bad" there would be a better space for conversation and interaction.

Also if the Surface was more overtly morally-grey rather it's we're-morally-"complex"-and-say-we're-good-but-not-really-good it would create a big space for UDers to get involved.

I think a good barometer for Arelith is what are your LG paladins doing. Are they fearful? Are they fighting? Are they worried about Andunor? Do they care about Cordor? You know? Because as much as evil is important, evil really really womps to play when everyone is corruptible/chaotic neutral/indifferent.

This is a tangent, but Andunor is always directly/indirectly tied to the health of Evil on the server, imho. If Evil generally womps, then Andunor will mega-womp because it's all Evil.

Most people have rewards. I don't see why people can't use their rewards.

Before this, the complaints were always how humans were so good because they could start in the UD, use a -ECL reward and access all the UD levelling. Now it's the same thing, except your leveling process is less optimal.

Skibbles wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 6:18 pmThe outcast reward lock started March 22nd, almost exactly as quarantine began in the US and I think a little earlier in other parts of the world. Yes we have more monsters now, but we also have over twenty million people without jobs or reduced hours stuck at home - and that's just the US. I really don't think the outcast change has suddenly made more people play monsters. Covid did, and it will end one day, and the UD could be left reeling.

Why would this only effect the UD? If people stop playing the game they stop playing the game, period.

The Underdark is the base server for a lot of players, me included. You talk like it's an afterthought for everyone. There are a variety of players in Arelith and not everyone has a 'human centric at all costs' viewpoint. I don't even have a human in my vault and I doubt I ever will. They are level 30 monster races, or Underdark characters. There's a lot of players who main monster races and characters and there's no indication from player numbers that the UD is somehow dwindling. As of this post it has 60 players just like distant shores and the surface and earlier it had the most players on any server.

I know for me at least, I started playing an UD char to get away from the surface style day to day RP. I wanted more conflict, plotting, subterfuge and that's what the UD brought. The Underdark is not the surface, it has its own rules, atmosphere and style, trying to turn it into 'surface light' where it's basically exactly the same because everyone is playing nice-nice with each other regardless of race, background and are a human using the systems to just avoid having to make any sacrifices at all, creates a much worse atmosphere and makes Underdark RP deeply confusing from what i've seen. It's a trade city, but it still isn't the surface and when every other character is a human, elf or surface character slave having free reign of the city to say and do what they like it starts to get a little out of hand. That's where we were at and that's why restrictions were brought in and so far from what i've seen it's had a positive effect.

I think looking at the facts and numbers we have is a really good idea and a good way to drive discussion. Being able to objectively quantify change is valuable in understanding it. That being said, I do wonder if we're getting a bit too speculative when focusing more on the future of the UD in light of these relatively recent changes. It's not exactly constructive discussion, and more often than not leads to bristly responses from the players and the team alike. I'd rather focus on the present, and understanding the mistakes of the past to see how its negative effects can be reversed.

And for those of you speaking up while recognizing their lack of experience in what they're talking about, please keep an open mind! Lots of the people posting have years of play with a wide range of characters, humans and monsters and surface and UD alike. Listen to people's perspectives and try and understand where they're coming from - no one is trying to ruin your fun, we just wish things were more fun and are trying to figure out what went wrong.

I do agree that Andunor should have more festivals, feasts and such of their own, which often open a good peek for anyone interested, such as our Scourge Feasts that has given great view on monster RP that has served as example.

Underdark can do more than just raid. We should also make our events include others, limiting things for just drow for the example might make sense IC for drow but if you open them as public, you give a chance for the interested to see their RP and maybe get inspired to make drow of their own!

Ok, we'll do more fun parties!

But in all seriousness? Andunor, huh? Zelos is my first (and only) UDer and my second character ever. I've been playing for about a year now. And most of that time is spent on Zelos. I think there's plenty of conflict, intrigue, and tension going on in the city. Is it cliquey? I'd argue it's more hidden, personally. I will say as someone who played before Outcast 2.0 and after...it actually feels like a monster city, for better or worse. I've definitely seen the 'run out of town,' PVP-RP play out. This is why it's important to set some sort of terms of surrender beyond 'DIE REPEATEDLY.' Despite all that? I'm glad Andunor is so compacted. It's just so much easier to get something going RP wise. This is why I'd really hate to see another town in the dark. Andunor right now can feel empty during off-hours. I don't see how splitting the player base will help in that regard.

As for surfacers visiting the Dark? It's basically already completely fine as long as you're a human/exotic race. Literally all you need to do is be able to speak undercommon, linger in the hub enough to be 'recognized' without disturbing anyone, and you are basically good to go from what I can gather. And I honestly think some of the more 'unaccepted races' could pull this off. Some already do! It's kind of odd to witness given the recent change to Outcasts with the reasons given. Outcasts/surface humans serving as a shady in-between is classic and certainly intriguing, but it is a bit constricting if you aren't either.

Personally I'm of the mind that this is a game first and foremost. I think liberties need to be taken in order to ensure people enjoy playing. I love Andunor and how contained it is. But onne of the above posters is right. 'It's Just Andunor.' It really is just Andunor.

Let's be honest: I think even the most fervent believers that Andunor is too cliquey and anti-conflict due to pvp-escalation would concede that Underdark/Surface RP is WAY WORSE in that regard. Mere coexistence is enough to bring it to the immediate boil of 'get out or I am killbashing the heck out of you.' And recently it's starting to swing back the other way what with 'Sunlander hunters being spotted, rally and kill 'em,' but at least there's some access to our city, albeit only to a handful of races. Don't get me wrong: I'm just as guilty. And I can totally get behind it playing out like that in the wild. But I think the game would be for the better if places such as Sencliffe and perhaps Sibyad (And yes I hear it's never going to happen) were more intermingled and wild-westish LIKE Andunor. Admittedly: I am not up-to-date on 'current' Sibyad or Sencliffe acceptances/practices/going on's. This is mostly me rambling.

I'm generally opposed to things that cleave off entire sections of a player base and isolate them. There should be tension. And murder should be just one wrong word away between persons. A genuine sense of hostility should be the default. But I don't think any killbash or 'get out now' will ever hold a candle to interacting with even the most dull of players/characters.

Additional Edit: Some of the races literally aren't allowed on the majority of the server zones if the IN-GAME CLOCK IS NOT WHAT IT SHOULD BE. Think about how hilarious and ridiculous that is if you can push aside the lore from your mind. Though given how interactions are between topside and bottom -- it's probably best it stays that way.

Xerah wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 6:25 pm Most people have rewards. I don't see why people can't use their rewards.

Before this, the complaints were always how humans were so good because they could start in the UD, use a -ECL reward and access all the UD levelling. Now it's the same thing, except your leveling process is less optimal.

Why on earth would I ever use an award to play a regular human when I could use it play something more exotic, or just apply -ECL on a surface human?

Tathkar Eisgrim wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 2:27 pm It all sounds like the status quo needs a good shake.

It also sounds like Scrying needs a big nerf.



-- Tath.

Not really. It eats a lot of spell components or piety and usually doesn't give much of value if it even works. The recent server split made it even less useful(underdarkers can't easy scry on Cordor any more for example.) It's easily countered with spells anyone with 10 lore can cast from a scroll. It is great for locating someone who isn't on guard, yeah, assuming they're on the same server. Don't forget it also takes three feats to get the ability and there aren't many other benefits to ESF Divination.

Personally I think it could even use a boost but certainly not a nerf. It works about well enough now to be worth the investment, any less and it wouldn't. Anyway some paranoia that you might be scried on is good for every sensitive meeting.

Nitro wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 10:18 pm

Xerah wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 6:25 pm Most people have rewards. I don't see why people can't use their rewards.

Before this, the complaints were always how humans were so good because they could start in the UD, use a -ECL reward and access all the UD levelling. Now it's the same thing, except your leveling process is less optimal.

Why on earth would I ever use an award to play a regular human when I could use it play something more exotic, or just apply -ECL on a surface human?

An outcast is not a regular human. So for that reason.

How do you answer people when they ask about taking gifts? It's usually "everyone gets to 30 eventually, so take your gifts; ECL doesn't really matter".