Let's talk about tags

[Seven Sons of Sin]

If the tags are about instigating conflict, "us vs them" is probably the most boring.

I agree. I have never seen a situation where a tag adds benefit to roleplay experience in a scenario of conflict. And if tags exist meant to inform characters who may be on the same side, it seems wholly unnecessary.

But the symmetrical design of pirates vs. knights, etc. is indeed the most boring. If you don't want Sencliff pirates to be two-dimensional evil corsairs (rather than the vast amount of archetypes that could exist), then why on earth did you give them tattoos to give ammo to Arelith's lowest denominator to build exile-roleplay off of.

[DangerDolphin]

I think tags make sense if you're wearing a signet ring for an open/lawful organisation like the Helmites/Radiant Heart.

For anything else (particularly pirates and outcasts) I think they are terrible.

The problem with tags is they are mechanically rooted and not clever enough to distinguish between different characters as Seven Sons mentions:

Character A is an Outcast who has the disgraced family background (http://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Outcast) but who is otherwise largely not a big deal. Not even evil aligned, just tries to get by trading where they can and avoiding large settlements.

On the other hand, you could have Character B who isn't an Outcast but literally eats babies, summons demons, and animates undead on a daily basis. They are exiled from a bunch of player settlements as a result.

Of these two though, Character A has the big warning in their description. Character B does not.

I would much rather we had something player driven, whereby it shows a list of settlements and groups that have set statuses on you, e.g:

This character is an exile from Cordor
Guldorand has made this character a Pariah
The Radiant Heart has condemned this individual
The Necromancer Hunters guild has declared this person their enemy </3

This could then be expanded to positive tags too, such as:

The Sharps District has made this character a citizen
This character is recognized as a noble in Cordor
The temple of Bane recognizes this person as an official priest

We also shouldn't be showing most tags immediately, but have them based on time spent investigating a person.

For instance do -investigate "Evul Necroomuncer" and then you get rolls based on your search/spot/whatever every hour for a chance to reveal more information on them based on the list above and your own status (If you are a cordor citizen, it's easy to recognise a noble from there)

[Red_Wharf]

I think these tags are the worst thing ever, and with that said, why does the Outcast system need to exist, anyway? Sometimes I wonder if it wouldn't be better to simply make no mechanical distinctions between a Human who starts in Cordor and a Human who starts in Andunor. Let roleplay decide who's the bad guy, not the bad red words in someone's description.

[Chosen Son]

Really cool ideas by DangerDolphin.

I also think now that outcasts are gated behind a normal award, the tag that shows regardless of any king of check is unwarrented. Sencliff ink which is a physical think on someone might not show, but something reputation based like outcast, shows always regardless of any attempt to lay low, or hide.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Idea #1
Makes tags like pirates and RH no different in appearance to a custom tag. So people can pretend to be something they are not.

Idea # 2

A board system that keeps track of real ranks.

Like the radiant heart in their head qaurters would have a way of verifying actual member names and rank

Or the cities would have a way of knowing who outcasts are (you can at this point remove the outcast tag and let city officials have an on going list of active outcasts, Adunour can too for those who want to do the extra study work and be unwelcoming to those not on the list)

[Archnon]

I think tags make sense if you're wearing a signet ring for an open/lawful organisation like the Helmites/Radiant Heart.

For anything else (particularly pirates and outcasts) I think they are terrible.

The problem with tags is they are mechanically rooted and not clever enough to distinguish between different characters as Seven Sons mentions:

Character A is an Outcast who has the disgraced family background (http://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Outcast) but who is otherwise largely not a big deal. Not even evil aligned, just tries to get by trading where they can and avoiding large settlements.

On the other hand, you could have Character B who isn't an Outcast but literally eats babies, summons demons, and animates undead on a daily basis. They are exiled from a bunch of player settlements as a result.

Of these two though, Character A has the big warning in their description. Character B does not.

I would much rather we had something player driven, whereby it shows a list of settlements and groups that have set statuses on you, e.g:

This character is an exile from Cordor
Guldorand has made this character a Pariah
The Radiant Heart has condemned this individual
The Necromancer Hunters guild has declared this person their enemy </3

This could then be expanded to positive tags too, such as:

The Sharps District has made this character a citizen
This character is recognized as a noble in Cordor
The temple of Bane recognizes this person as an official priest

We also shouldn't be showing most tags immediately, but have them based on time spent investigating a person.

For instance do -investigate "Evul Necroomuncer" and then you get rolls based on your search/spot/whatever every hour for a chance to reveal more information on them based on the list above and your own status (If you are a cordor citizen, it's easy to recognise a noble from there)

This please! This seems amazing and able to generate so much RP. Though perhaps not a spot/search check. Unless Cordor has taken to physically branding outcasts orlopping off an ear or something, to then it is a matter of knowledge not sight.

[Ork]

Or, why can't we just go back to putting in the work to find out who people are? Want to be known as a noble? Make that apparent throughout your roleplay. Pirate? Same thing. Giving IC information through the description is intrinsically non-roleplay. Work for what you want your character to be known as. Renown does not come for free.

[Eira]

*All of this*

I am reminded of when people have complained about their secrets being revealed and accusing others of meta when in fact there is a rich network of characters who go to the effort to do serious spying and information hunting. Making tags more common just feels like rewarding people who don't go to any effort of learning about the world around them and just assume everything is surface level.

Also I strongly predict an uptick of descriptions that are just 96 carriage returns to hide info at the bottom if this happens.

[Xarge VI]

I don't have big issues with pirate and outcast tags. Pirate tag in particular is logical. You've made the effort to earn reputation in that particular community for good and for ill.

Radiant Heart tag however is behind an alignment and class check if I've understood it correctly. This makes it little different to the infamous Lightkeep Arch that was nuked by an angry kobold and associates.

Overall I think tags add an artificial level to roleplay which I find unnecessary.

As an example: Wearing a Radiant Heart ring is logical and expected for a knight and it entirely fits the setting that everyone is able to recognize it. However the same knight could just put it in their description manually to get the same effect only without all the OOC implications. (Alignment knowledge, etc.)

And the same applies to a pirate. It's neat to have this pursuit to earn the Dread Pirate tattoo. But in the end the issues of starting as a pirate and being pwned while trying to do writs is easily solved by removing the tag. You will get your share of people after you when you start doing pirate things.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

Or, why can't we just go back to putting in the work to find out who people are? Want to be known as a noble? Make that apparent throughout your roleplay. Pirate? Same thing. Giving IC information through the description is intrinsically non-roleplay. Work for what you want your character to be known as. Renown does not come for free.

The current -description has a separate tag for like "faction symbol" or something, which is where some of the impetus of this thread has started.

It's not just the mechanical pseudo-factions of the Radiant Heart and Sencliff, but universally, the description tools have created a bias to slapping OOC information in the description.

Walk around any settlement and you're bound to see a bunch of tag-like sentences in character's descriptions. The system is actively encouraging this.

edit:

Radiant Heart tag however is behind an alignment and class check if I've understood it correctly. This makes it little different to the infamous Lightkeep Arch that was nuked by an angry kobold and associates.

Someone's articulated why it always bothers me so much. I get it now. I hate it.

[Xerah]

Radiant Heart tag however is behind an alignment and class check if I've understood it correctly. This makes it little different to the infamous Lightkeep Arch that was nuked by an angry kobold and associates.

Someone's articulated why it always bothers me so much. I get it now. I hate it.

Is is something that has been already in the works to address.

[Ork]

</c>This character is wearing the signet of a Duke of Cordor marking him as an elite member of civilized society. Everyone should pay him the respect due a noble of Cordor.

[The GrumpyCat]

Or, why can't we just go back to putting in the work to find out who people are? Want to be known as a noble? Make that apparent throughout your roleplay. Pirate? Same thing. Giving IC information through the description is intrinsically non-roleplay. Work for what you want your character to be known as. Renown does not come for free.

The current -description has a separate tag for like "faction symbol" or something, which is where some of the impetus of this thread has started.

It's not just the mechanical pseudo-factions of the Radiant Heart and Sencliff, but universally, the description tools have created a bias to slapping OOC information in the description.

Walk around any settlement and you're bound to see a bunch of tag-like sentences in character's descriptions. The system is actively encouraging this.

edit:

Radiant Heart tag however is behind an alignment and class check if I've understood it correctly. This makes it little different to the infamous Lightkeep Arch that was nuked by an angry kobold and associates.

Someone's articulated why it always bothers me so much. I get it now. I hate it.

Whilst you do have a bit of a point, I don't think it's quite that bad.

With the RH, you need to be cleric/Paladin/COT, to get in - it's restricted to certain classes and is a 'Thing.' With the Arch you could just grab any old spod off the street and force them through the arch.
So whilst the Ring does currently act as proof that the person you're talking is definatly Not Evil, it doesn't work to prove that anyone at all isn't evil - if that makes sense?

Still - I do take the point. It is problematic but, as Xerah says - it's being worked on.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

That's a fair point, GrumpyCat. But to me, that was never the issue with the Arch of Light, and this ties into the OP's point, so I'll get into it. I am happy this is being worked on for the Radiant Heart Auxiliary, but it should be changed for Sencliff too, because:

Some of the best conflict on the server is intra-factional conflict (that is, factions imploding). Where guilds and organizations can be prone to subterfuge, earn renown through reputation, and be undermined from within.

The main problem with Light Keep is not that paladins dragged in shady individuals to be judged (although still a problem) -

the problem with Light Keep is it could never have to deal with a Lawful Evil Helmite wanting to join its order. Because that Lawful Evil Helmite (not a villain, but certainly evil and an antagonist to other paladins) would explode before he could swear his oaths to the divine light.

How fascinating would it have been if you have a Lawful Good Ilmateri, and a Lawful Evil Helmite, both out patrolling the forest and having to deal with conflict? Both having sworn the same oaths?

Instead, Light Keep prevented all of this kind of roleplay. And anything that was like it.

The Radiant Heart's acceptance is actually MORE restrictive (ironically) than Light Keep from this sense of roleplay inclusiveness. James Malhinde, the LKer who tried to become King, later leader of the Forsworn, was a good-aligned barbarian.

The Radiant Heart Auxiliary cannot support a James Malhinde today, because of tags.

You also cannot have a Lawful Good rogue infiltrate the Pirates of Sencliff.

And so on, and so forth. This "gating" is regressive, and honestly, once again, stems from a place of "us vs. them", promoting safety and big walls and keeping characters (and players) out. It's safeguarding sacred places of roleplay rather than leaving everything to chance, the quality of the roleplay of the character's involved, and the willingness for all parties to tell an awesome story.


(and yes, obligatory the Mythal should be destroyed too)

[Nitro]

That is very well said and I agree with every last word of it.

[Morgy]

Solid post

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Tags are truly the antithesis to roleplay and I am sad they exist. The greatest injustice is outcasts. When they rolled out, the definition for what was an outcast was muddled to the point of irrelevance. It was left to outcasts to define for themselves what that meant to them. Some people didn't ever develop that definition, but some people never do on Arelith. Some people are content to play the NPC, the resource grinder, the non-important individual, and thats okay. Why outcast tags are a necessary evil, I have no idea. If someone's chumming it up with the surface and also schmoozing in the UD - there's plenty of non-outcast characters doing that right now.

If the tags are about instigating conflict, "us vs them" is probably the most boring.

*edited*

Part of the reason there are plenty of non-outcast characters doing so is Adunour has no way of telling who is and is not an outcast. Sure I can through RP. But honestly by the time I reach level 20, i will probably have encountered 3 generations of outcasts due to my limited playtime. So I can never do anything to make surfacers feel unwelcomed because I as a player can not keep up with who is who and there is no alternative for "knowledge local check" other than our horrendous tag system.

So my previous post tried suggesting an alternative.

[Ork]

Again, that "us vs them" conflict is shooting yourself in the foot. By saying "we only allow Underdark rp, and if you're a surfacer, you'll be ostracized" over time means you lose the interplay between Underdark and surface. You might as well be playing on completely separate and unconnected servers.

"us vs them" tends to remove RP if it becomes the status quo.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Again, that "us vs them" conflict is shooting yourself in the foot. By saying "we only allow Underdark rp, and if you're a surfacer, you'll be ostracized" over time means you lose the interplay between Underdark and surface. You might as well be playing on completely separate and unconnected servers.

"us vs them" tends to remove RP if it becomes the status quo.

I think you are pigeon holing me here and doing "us versus them" on an OOC level.

I'm looking at all sides of the arguments, Grumpycat himself says DMs have monitored surface more heavily than underdark for cross border relations because underdark apparently has done and, or does a better job (I am assuming in the past and not necessarily present), suggesting there is suppose to be challenge in cross relations (not impossible). I never said ostrichized, heck I might even recruit those who are ostrichized as an oppurtunity to power for myself if nobody seemed to be throwing them a bone. By unwelcoming, i mean exactly 'unwelcoming'. Like odd stares of 'who the heck is this' maybe a few people step up and see an opportunity to 'help themselves' maybe some enforcers approach them and say they need to be escorted while doing trade down here less they be stabbed, lots of in between spectrum opportunities that can be created out of tension! For the record, I'm not part of the camp you assumed I am. If there were camps, I am somewhere in the middle and consider the most harmful "us versus them" to be OOC "us versus thems". I don't see you or the people you are arguing against as being the 'wrong side', but rather just over emphasizing certain sides of spectrum of "knowledge local check" (I think an alternative system would be great!)

I actually pushed for interplay on a previous character of mine (a pirate merchant elf)! I spoke of my inability to act against surfacers, I never claimed what I should or should not be doing against for for them, but the devs has always suggested that is should be a place that surfacers can, but not necessarily with open welcome arms, for surfacers to visit.

Neither of us are the problem, we just got different perspectives, and hopefully through discussion we can have the best middle ground solution. Like if it was Garbear's server, wed all be playing super hardcore mode, but that wouldn't necessarily be the best action for the server as a whole. With outcast reward beings required to start in Adunour, we probably can just remove all the tags now, but I am still open an optimistic for some new middle ground too!

[Skibbles]

I have seen a Radiant Heart or two in my time here but I don't know what an outcast tag looks like.

Isn't the Radiant Heart tag tied to the ring? Can you simply remove the ring and the tag goes with it?

I think it might be kind of cool to have a mundane 'faction ring' sellable that can be enchanted all the same as a regular ring and when you put it on it activates whatever -faction information you tied it to. I could see this being crazy useful for many of the player factions that add their own tags (like drow houses or mercenary companies). Moreover if you wanted to go incognito you can simply remove the ring.

I have mixed thoughts on outcast tagging. More or less I agree with Orc. When outcasts first dropped it was so damn hard to tell outcasts from non-outcasts that you could have hundreds of hours of entertainment just trying to sort through the confusion with spying and backroom deals.

Of course you had to have that kind of spare time.

I very much believe that the tag/outcast reward/slave reward system was a natural response to the unnatural inflation of Arelith's numbers during the opening months of the pandemic quarantine. You can check and see that both the servers were split and the reward was added just two weeks or so after it began - such was the immense volume of new blood. New blood is great but I would think it's going to be a ton of players that aren't as well versed in the relatively high bar of Arelith (which by now I imagine can take months to absorb everything about it here) and thus have merely a learning curve would could translate into some fiddly things like outcasts schmoozing in Cordor.

The counterargument to this is of course non-outcasts simply schmooze in Andunor presently but that might be a design choice to keep UD numbers inflated (UD population dropped to 3 last night FYI).

I can't find the update thread for when tags were added to outcast though, oddly, but I would think it's tied to an explosion in player numbers. Perhaps a little after or just before the EE release.

Essentially I think this is likely to be temporary in the long run.

[Kuma]

Radiant Heart is fine, because you can wear it or not, there's a clear system, you're an auxilliary not a real leader with authority to abuse, and it's generally fairly niche. It also incorporates content - writs, rewards, etc. It could be considered akin to a sub-class.

It's also ICly voluntary and well-defined. This is important.

Assassin doesn't have tags, but has a writ/reward system in similar vein. It's ICly voluntary and well-defined.

Pirate is exactly the same. Your character has chosen to do this, the ranks are concrete, earned, and mean things.

The Beast Belt was the same, too. Your character did something and I can react to that accordingly - and your reaction to that reaction generates story content.

Outcast is not like this. Outcast is a poorly defined state of being of someone who struggles to operate in surface settlements, gets UD writs, speaks Undercommon, costs a whole-Snuggybear normal award to make, and can be pinged by anyone as other. As a target, much like pirates, but not even for anything concrete. This DOES NOT come up in roleplay. It will either be ignored or make you a PvP target. Shady/grey area/"I'm not as bad as they say" etc doesn't actually happen because the concept of "outcast" has been degenerated into an agency-free award burnt for a dubiously useful status.

Nobody's making them any more, instead, people are just bringing surfacers to the UD, learning Undercommon/Xanalress, and becoming ingratiated with the locals; cutting shady backroom deals, being sponsored by powerful people/guilds, used as pawns, etc etc.

Those same people can go to the surface, own houses, use NPC services, etc. unmolested. Should I be reporting them? Should they be given Outcast tags as some sort of DM punishment? No, honestly, because this is now much closer to the way outcast was at the start - R O L E P L A Y

I would not recommend anyone roll up an Outcast any more. I would recommend they start as a surfacer and earn their place in Andunor. It's more naturalistic than supposedly being reviled by the entire world at level 3 (tags and surface troubles), and encourages far more interaction between everyone in the process.

I played one of the first outcasts, and I LOVED playing a smuggler of goods and services from the surface to the UD. My character became the first human settlement leader in the Underdark. It was dope. It'd have been a lot harder to do if I had some sort of nebulous "THIS PERSON'S AN OUTCAST" tag on him- sure, partly because it'd make travel and settlement NPCs harder to deal with, but that's not even the big problem. The problem is it DISCOURAGES player agency. It's carte blanche to open your interactions on uneven footing, rather than allowing a situation where the paladin merchant doesn't realise he's being duped into supplying healing supplies for Underdarker. But then his rogue friend thinks I'm acting shady (I am!), and follows me to the Dreadnought docked in the swamps as I sail off with my ill-gotten wares.

THAT'S roleplay.

If I had a "bwoop! this guy's shady!" tag on my description at the time, this would've been reduced to- well, you know what it'd have been reduced to. This is based on multiple true events of the time, btw. I ran a dope smuggling operation that got narrowly busted a number of times and it was great. Tags and NPC auto-hate would've meant that could never happen - unless I was already level 30 and max'd Bluff. This should NOT be encouraged.

Furthermore the surface is already down there often enough. The same thing is already happening, just without a convenient tag. Nobody treats dealing with UDers/lurking in Andunor like the warcrime it is because, well, it isn't one any more. Characters don't seem to care as much about people living "between" places. I get that "outcast" is supposed to be a backstory thing, but man. It really feels weird when they're heavily restricted and others are way better at being Andunor Humans than they are.

Remove the tag on examine and EITHER: start policing it (it isn't unfair to expect DMs to DM) with a better definition, OR just accept that what we think it is doesn't fit on Arelith any more and just let people play Underhumans.

And, if you want to stem the tide of surfacers going there and just being Better Outcasts, let them make outcasts without mindlessly grinding out awards. Make slave and outcast awardless again.

basically, go back to how they were at launch. people won't treat them how they're "meant to be" treated because that's already happening with non-outcasts. it's a weird dichotomy of second-class player states where the ones with the award and background are objectively worse than those without, with no benefits. and PLEASE don't take this to mean that the module/NPCs should instead go harder on "surfacers" in the UD, and "UDers" on the surface, like. that doesn't create RP. it doesn't. NPCs yelling doesn't create RP. it's the outcast tag in a different channel. it's the same thing.

[ReverentBlade]

Uh? There's usually extreme consequences for being caught in Andunor in my experience.

[Kuma]

Uh? There's usually extreme consequences for being caught in Andunor in my experience.

Absolutely nothing like they used to be.

EDIT: I should clarify the main thrust of my post was more about how "people who are caught being in Andunor a lot, but are not mechanically Outcasts" are treated ON THE SURFACE.

[ReverentBlade]

Which is what I meant. The rights words to the right people and they get exiled form surface settlements at the drop of a hat.

[Kuma]

Which is what I meant. The rights words to the right people and they get exiled form surface settlements at the drop of a hat.

honestly all the more reason to remove the tags, then