Let's talk about tags

[Nitro]

So, we've had various tags around for a couple of years now. Everything from Outcasts to pirates to Radiant Heart members. To clarify, for the purposes of this topic i refer to tags that are publicly visible at the end of a characters description, like the ones mentioned previously. NOT tags like the harper pin which is only visible to other harpers.

So how do people feel about these now that we've had them for a while? Does anyone have any personal anecdotes or experiences to share about how the system works? Or just any thoughts or ideas about the system in general.

Myself I have a rather dim view of the whole system. It seems to put people into a "Red VS Blue" mindset, wherein someone who has a tag opposed to their alignment or opposed to their faction/concept is either killed or forced away if they try to roleplay anywhere near them. Or used to ensure that a faction remains free of infiltrators by making sure that everyone in it has the tag, thereby ensuring that they are of a similar alignment with mechanics.

That's why I personally feel like the tag system stifles RP, or rather skips it. Instead of roleplaying to find out if someone actually is an honorable knight like they claim, you can just glance down at their description and know on an OOC level that they are not an evil blackguard trying to trick you because they have the RH ring on. That's what I mean with skipping RP, you just go straight past everything that might come before validating what or who a character is and skip right to after it is confirmed.

But that's just my feelings, I'll be interested to see what other people have to say about it now that we've had tags around for a while.

[The Rambling Midget]

Honestly, I'd like to see the tag system expanded so that custom factions can create optional unified rank based tags for their members, in order to help with identification and cohesion.

Badges, insignia, and heraldry are points of pride and can serve as protection as often as putting a target on your back. Plus, if tags were more common, it would drown out the existing ones a little bit.

Also, it's perfectly okay to hate and distrust RH members. They can be just as bad as any BBEG, despite what their intentions might be.

[Dovesong]

Also, it's perfectly okay to hate and distrust RH members. They can be just as bad as any BBEG, despite what their intentions might be.

Tyranny in a lace glove is still tyranny. -- My Harper

[Hazard]

I'd like to see the total removal of tags and their mechanics and just let everyone do everything, and things to be regulated by roleplay rather than mechanics.

I'm totally fine with how things are too, though .. So. I don't know. Whatever I guess.

The least helpful comment, but that's all I've got.

[Nitro]

Honestly, I'd like to see the tag system expanded so that custom factions can create optional unified rank based tags for their members, in order to help with identification and cohesion.

Badges, insignia, and heraldry are points of pride and can serve as protection as often as putting a target on your back. Plus, if tags were more common, it would drown out the existing ones a little bit.

Also, it's perfectly okay to hate and distrust RH members. They can be just as bad as any BBEG, despite what their intentions might be.

I think I would like that more honestly. Player made and handed out tags are less reliable than an automated system and introduces some uncertainty, you don't know OOC'ly someone is evil just because they've been given a token by an evil guild.

[The GrumpyCat]

The Radient Heart and the Pirate tag I am pretty ambivilent on.

The Outcast tag I find irritating, but sadly a neccesary evil.

People weren't playing 'Outcasts' as 'Outcasts.' Or treating 'Outcasts' as 'Outcasts.' And it was unfair of us, as a DM team, to expect people to treat Outcasts as they are - when there's were so few ways of telling if someone was an outcast. So the tag had to be added.

I don't particularly like it though, and hope one day we come up with something a little better, a little more sublte.

[Baron Saturday]

The Radient Heart and the Pirate tag I am pretty ambivilent on.

The Outcast tag I find irritating, but sadly a neccesary evil.

People weren't playing 'Outcasts' as 'Outcasts.' Or treating 'Outcasts' as 'Outcasts.' And it was unfair of us, as a DM team, to expect people to treat Outcasts as they are - when there's were so few ways of telling if someone was an outcast. So the tag had to be added.

I don't particularly like it though, and hope one day we come up with something a little better, a little more sublte.

What if any NPC who sees the outcast (or breaks their disguise?) gives out a bark, along the lines of "You! *points at X* You shouldn't be here! Finish your business and go!"

That way, while a PC may not know an outcast on sight, the game world itself provides that info in a more IC way.

[Tyrantos]

Sounds pretty good, what Baron says. And I reckon with points in either persuade, or bluff it might be possible to stop NPC's from doing such? Make Persuade a skill used!

[The GrumpyCat]

The Radient Heart and the Pirate tag I am pretty ambivilent on.

The Outcast tag I find irritating, but sadly a neccesary evil.

People weren't playing 'Outcasts' as 'Outcasts.' Or treating 'Outcasts' as 'Outcasts.' And it was unfair of us, as a DM team, to expect people to treat Outcasts as they are - when there's were so few ways of telling if someone was an outcast. So the tag had to be added.

I don't particularly like it though, and hope one day we come up with something a little better, a little more sublte.

What if any NPC who sees the outcast (or breaks their disguise?) gives out a bark, along the lines of "You! *points at X* You shouldn't be here! Finish your business and go!"

That way, while a PC may not know an outcast on sight, the game world itself provides that info in a more IC way.

Hay, y'know in the Mayfield, and how irritating it when you're trying to have a conversation with someone-

'OUTCAST! OUTCAST! BEWARE AN OUTCAST!'

and the npcs around you won't

'OUTCAST! OUTCAST! BEWARE AN OUTCAST!'

shutup so you have to move

'OUTCAST! OUTCAST! BEWARE AN OUTCAST!'

away. Well imgine if alol the

'OUTCAST! OUTCAST! BEWARE AN OUTCAST!'

Npcs around you constatly

'OUTCAST! OUTCAST! BEWARE AN OUTCAST!'

did that. Functionally it'd be the same as a tag as

'OUTCAST! OUTCAST! BEWARE AN OUTCAST!'

it'd still out you, except now people could just ignore the

'OUTCAST! OUTCAST! BEWARE AN OUTCAST!'

Really irritating npcs. There'd also be lag issues of the

'OUTCAST! OUTCAST! BEWARE AN OUTCAST!'

constant screaming, it'd be pretty heavy on the

'OUTCAST! OUTCAST! BEWARE AN OUTCAST!'

system for it still to mean anything.

[The Rambling Midget]

Cordor rules the outcasts!

[Seven Sons of Sin]

Is this a suggestion?

[Baron Saturday]

'OUTCAST! OUTCAST! BEWARE AN OUTCAST!'

That was definitely a concern! You could probably limit it to just NPC guards, or even just guards at settlement entrances.

[Nitro]

Is this a suggestion?

[DM Rex]

We also would have to oversee and approve rank names if players designed them and they were to be put in the system. Sadly not everyone is mature enough.

To a degree I'll say that tag RP is crutch RP. It should not define automatically how you treat someone, or how they're expected to act. But it allows a degree of meta so you aren't unaware of someone's status.

And having NPCs spam it would actually make the situation 1000% worse, instead of a passive observation it'd be annoying as all hells.

[The Rambling Midget]

We also would have to oversee and approve rank names if players designed them and they were to be put in the system. Sadly not everyone is mature enough.

No more than you currently need to oversee and approve character descriptions. The reason why I suggested the addition was because players are already doing it in droves, and with multicolored text. Drow houses, guard factions, noble houses, mercenary groups, and more. It would only be a way to automate an existing system, and there should naturally be a means of disabling it for both faction leaders and members.

[Hazard]

Since metagaming- I mean "tags" have been introduced, I haven't personally seen them used for anything other than justifying instant PvP/exclusion. Rather than generating RP, they appear to be discouraging RP and even gifting people new ways of shutting down or avoiding roleplaying in favor of pure mechanics.

Someone new/disguised/stealthed walks into surface town. You examine. Tag says bad. Person is surrounded by warded people. Leave or corpsebash. You've never roleplayed with this person, and now you likely never will ... Fun.

In your head, you may imagine a cool scenario where your character keeps quiet, keeps their head down and really just tries to get business done and leave. Maybe people see you and talk about you. Maybe some try to talk to you, to see if their suspicions have any merit. Maybe this, or that, or anything, or something- But I just don't see it happen. All I see is, "Oh. I have identified an enemy. PvP! Game says PvP now." It's not too different from the auto-hostile days, only now it requires a spot check from at least 1 person first.

I think the tags/status being hidden and restricting portal access and citizenship stuff is enough.. and the rest can be removed, while that part is expanded on. Either that, or it needs to go both ways.

For example, an outcast can't just walk into Cordor. Likely you're going to be slaughtered.
A non-outcast can however stroll through the Underdark casually in the name of "trade" and just socialise or go shopping or do whatever, y'know? ^_^ It's the Underdark, it's a cute and cuddly place. It's all good man, come have a seat. Here is your complimentary giggling drow GF.

If we're going to mechanically enforce welcomeness/unwelcomeness I think it needs to go both ways. It makes sense for it to favor the bad places being more inhospitable than the good places. Trade city or no, it is still an EVIL place. Currently the mechanics enforce a cuddly Andunor where everyone is welcome, while the surface settlements are actually behaving in an evil bloodthirsty, savage way.

It's just waaaay too easy for the good and bad guys to insta-travel to each others territories too. I'd like to see nearly all surface/underdark portals become restricted, respectively, to the appropriate playerbases. No more teleporting into the bramble/outskirts/whatever surface place for easy raids. No more teleporting to slums/outpost/coastal where ever for easy UD shopping trips.

It would be MUCH cooler if the surface and underdark actually felt separated, FAR apart, and alien to one another. Currently Cordor is about 10 seconds away from the Hub. "Do you ever miss the surface?" Nah, fam. I can go there like right now, ez.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

Is this a suggestion?

I am sorry. I had to. <3

I actually wish the system looked more like harper pins - a one line of description at the complete bottom of the character, that simply said

"This character is wearing a Gauntlet/Shield/Warden pin!"

[Morgy]

Would it be possible to only have the Outcast tag visible at closer proximity? That way PCs can shuffle about at distance from others to avoid attention, which might draw some RP’d interest from evasive behaviour and prompt closer investigation/revelation of outcast identity.

Perhaps very close proximity to certain NPCs could also trigger reactions as suggested above, but only if very close by. I could imagine an outcast skirting about commoners to keep to themselves.

[The Rambling Midget]

For example, an outcast can't just walk into Cordor. Likely you're going to be slaughtered.

I feel it's unreasonable to blame that on the tag, though. That was the whole point. That's what they signed up for. That's why I made my Tiefling red and obvious, so that she would stand out and be targeted, and it made for one of the best RP experiences I've ever had.

I've never seen an Outcast killed outright simply for being an Outcast, but what I have seen a lot of is those Outcasts strutting through Cordor like they own the place, and then pulling out the Modern Indignant Libertarian's Handbook for Dealing with Cops when they get faced down by twenty armed guards.

The whole leave or die thing was the RP opportunity that they requested, and then turned down, which I don't understand. There are a lot of places to go from there, with even a limited imagination, and the merest shred of humbleness.

As for Andunor, I suppose tags could be added, but they'd be pretty meaningless, since everyone is already hostile toward everyone else. That's why the Peacekeepers have to be so strict. As soon as that guy who looked at you the wrong way walks outside of Andunor, he's fair game, tag or not. UDers shouldn't care who belongs where, so much as who's of use and who's exploitable, and you can't tag that.

[Xerah]

Personally, I’m a big fan of the tags.

[Hazard]

For example, an outcast can't just walk into Cordor. Likely you're going to be slaughtered.

I feel it's unreasonable to blame that on the tag, though. That was the whole point. That's what they signed up for. That's why I made my Tiefling red and obvious, so that she would stand out and be targeted, and it made for one of the best RP experiences I've ever had.

I've never seen an Outcast killed outright simply for being an Outcast, but what I have seen a lot of is those Outcasts strutting through Cordor like they own the place, and then pulling out the Modern Indignant Libertarian's Handbook for Dealing with Cops when they get faced down by twenty armed guards.

The whole leave or die thing was the RP opportunity that they requested, and then turned down, which I don't understand. There are a lot of places to go from there, with even a limited imagination, and the merest shred of humbleness.

As for Andunor, I suppose tags could be added, but they'd be pretty meaningless, since everyone is already hostile toward everyone else. That's why the Peacekeepers have to be so strict. As soon as that guy who looked at you the wrong way walks outside of Andunor, he's fair game, tag or not. UDers shouldn't care who belongs where, so much as who's of use and who's exploitable, and you can't tag that.

We have vastly different experiences of Arelith, clearly.

[Ork]

Tags are truly the antithesis to roleplay and I am sad they exist. The greatest injustice is outcasts. When they rolled out, the definition for what was an outcast was muddled to the point of irrelevance. It was left to outcasts to define for themselves what that meant to them. Some people didn't ever develop that definition, but some people never do on Arelith. Some people are content to play the NPC, the resource grinder, the non-important individual, and thats okay. Why outcast tags are a necessary evil, I have no idea. If someone's chumming it up with the surface and also schmoozing in the UD - there's plenty of non-outcast characters doing that right now.

If the tags are about instigating conflict, "us vs them" is probably the most boring.

[Kuma]

there's plenty of non-outcast characters doing that right now.

If the tags are about instigating conflict, "us vs them" is probably the most boring.

this.

i have lots of thoughts on this but i'll save it for when i've had a coffee instead of a beer

[Archnon]

Character made tags can be done well. I love what people do with describing a patch or pin or marking without saying "this is X organization". Why should I know that ic? Without it, I am intrigued and want to RP. With it, I really don't know how to approach as well. It is the rp equivalent of providing a character name in a post instead of a description. I think the RH tags and pirate tags and outcast tags all fall into the same flavor. I get their necessity to keep people honest but I wish the had more flavor. Like a description of an outcast mark that you choose based on player background.

[Morgy]

I do think the concept of Outcasts is a little weird on characters which are supposed to be rolled fresh.

It's sort of like wanting an epic reputation for evil/past deeds without actually having gone to the trouble of doing them IC in Arelith.. Which feels backward compared to everything else which is very much defined on IG antics.