Timestop Reverted Discussion Thread

[the grim yeeter]

I'm usually not the person to (want to) say this, but I think we should try a tad harder to stay on topic. That is, to discuss the Timestop change.

[Nitro]

This directly nerfs dex builds only in so much as it forces them to get enough CON to stay above the oneshot line from a timestop, that's it. Other than that it makes arcane casters have an actual means of finishing someone once they start dipping low, as before it was literally impossible when the target could chug heal potions which heal for more than your highest damage moves do, and everyone can currently gear for saves in such a manner that save or suck spells have an extremely low chance of succeeding.

Timestop is still very much a finishing maneuver, unless you're fighting someone with low enough max HP that they just outright die to the combo. If you open a fight with a timestop, whoever you're fighting can just heal back up afterwards and leave you with your pants down.

However, now that arcane casters don't outright suck, wild mages and shadow mages do really need a looking at. They are already stronger than baseline wis/sorcs and anything that buffs the baseline also buffs those.

[Arigard]

I'm usually not the person to (want to) say this, but I think we should try a tad harder to stay on topic. That is, to discuss the Timestop change.

If this Timestop change was (as is mentioned) aimed at targeting low con builds that can turtle because of their high AC, then it has very much been on topic. You can't talk about the change in a positive/negative light without bringing in debates surrounding the meta that it's trying to address.

This change doesn't solve the issue it's seemingly trying to address outside of adding more firepower for those that can cast Time-stop against it, tweaking the dip mechanics does, because the annoyance of those issues extend further than just divine dips fighting mages. They are a problem for every class trying to deal with high AC low con builds that can't reliably do anything about their AC.

[Nitro]

Unironically, reverting the lore change would help even more to fix the current state of balance, because a UMD dip becomes so much more valuable, making div builds a lot harder to accomplish.

[Shadowy Reality]

I will say again, what I probably wrote in the last thread. That Timestop (the way it functions now) to be so essential to mages shows that there is an issue surrounding mages, and it's not Timestop. A single spell should not be the enabler of a whole class archetype, this is flawed.

The real problems aren't being solved here.
Do you want to stop people from healing through mage's nukes? Nerf healing potion chugging, nerf healing kits in combat.
Do you want to stop people from having stratospheric saves? Add a cap to bonus from divine dips (I am not even saying 1 per level, but 1.5 or 2 per level, dips still function), or remove Universal saves from the enchantment basin, leaving only specific saves.

The real issue is that mages do not function because if they use burst damage, it's not bursty enough due to the healing, and if they try to use DC spells they encounter a wall which are characters with 40+ to all saves. Another route can also be to add secondary effects, even when the spell DC is beat.

[jomonog]

70+ ac isn't high then I suppose?

I dont personally think 70 ac is that high if youre talking about in IE which either of ranger/monk or spellmonk would need to be to get 70+. Both sit closer to the low 60s ac mark. Monk dip means you're not using a shield. Divine dip can get its ac much higher.

There are a number of builds including archers and COTs which can push pretty high ABs even without true strike and hit through 70 ac particularly if the build is turtling in IE and not presenting a damage threat.

Its true though you can do some interesting monk dips on mages and end up with high acs and keep high dcs so they will be nice to build with timestop as it is now.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

This was inevitable. Not because of the self important folks saying "I told you so" earlier in this thread, but because the more mechanical savvy devs thought this was an issue from the beginning as well. And yes, anyone who understands the game mechanically could see that high dex divine builds were going to be an issue going forward, since high saves plus high ac plus heal potions galore were going to make them impossible to kill, and really the heal potions were the least of these issues. I personally wish that the solution was aimed at nerfing dips instead of bringing back one of the most unfun ways to die, but I also admit this is easier to balance and timestop evo was definitely what kept these builds in check before it was changed, so here we are. I do think that ultimately people will just adapt their divine builds now that they realize how good they are to make sure they have a little more con and only get slightly nerfed from where they are now, leaving us still with the issue that certain dips are just too strong if you are trying to balance pvp, but I suppose time will tell.

Good luck out there!

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

I will say again, what I probably wrote in the last thread. That Timestop (the way it functions now) to be so essential to mages shows that there is an issue surrounding mages, and it's not Timestop. A single spell should not be the enabler of a whole class archetype, this is flawed.

The real problems aren't being solved here.
Do you want to stop people from healing through mage's nukes? Nerf healing potion chugging, nerf healing kits in combat.
Do you want to stop people from having stratospheric saves? Add a cap to bonus from divine dips (I am not even saying 1 per level, but 1.5 or 2 per level, dips still function), or remove Universal saves from the enchantment basin, leaving only specific saves.

The real issue is that mages do not function because if they use burst damage, it's not bursty enough due to the healing, and if they try to use DC spells they encounter a wall which are characters with 40+ to all saves. Another route can also be to add secondary effects, even when the spell DC is beat.

I concur, though specifically with more secondary effect spells, not lowering saves.

[the grim yeeter]

[...] Not because of the self important folks saying "I told you so" earlier in this thread, [...]

Ahh, you couldn't resist, of course. Good for you.

I do think that ultimately people will just adapt their divine builds now that they realize how good they are to make sure they have a little more con and only get slightly nerfed from where they are now

Which is why the specific update post doesn't say "This is the one and only thing we're going to do about dex-based divine builds."

Yes, we all (or most in here, at least) know there are issues with certain (types of) builds. And the way Timestop worked before the reversion was one of them. This change was just one of the steps in the right direction. Further tweaking will be (or is already being) considered (and hopefully implemented), I'm fairly confident.

[Shadowy Reality]

[...] Not because of the self important folks saying "I told you so" earlier in this thread, [...]

Ahh, you couldn't resist, of course. Good for you.

Let us all please take a moment to read this thread from earlier this year, where a number of players who do know what they are talking about, predicted dead on that this would happen: viewtopic.php?f=37&t=28219

Let's not pretend you didn't do exactly the same.

If you don't want comments like that, then maybe you should refrain from comments implying you and other people do know more than others. This change doesn't validate your opinions any more than the original change validates mine. For all we know in one year Timestop will change again, you will be sad and I will be happy.

Over the years many players on the forums have given some sort of mechanical savvy medal to themselves and use it to validate their opinions. There are many players out there that understand mechanics. If you think there is a single way to balance Arelith, you are most entirely wrong. I don't like the change, I have said why, but I won't lose any sleep over it and will just keep playing as I have, and I am sure most people will do the same.

[Irongron]

What better way to celebrate Christmas and ring in the new year than a divisive mechanics change? I had asked the team if they could squeeze in a monk update too, but sadly it wasn't to be.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

[...] Not because of the self important folks saying "I told you so" earlier in this thread, [...]

Ahh, you couldn't resist, of course. Good for you.

Nope. Just like you couldn't resist the allure of "I told you so". Looks like we both failed our will save

As for the rest of what you wrote, if that's the case then why make this change at all? Wizards need help, its true, but that could have been accomplished by making sure folks can't get 40+ saves in all 3 slots. The problem they have had in the current meta is that they are fishing for ones, and even if they get them it can just be prayed away, so they are really fishing for two ones. If that were addressed, a wizard would have choices and decisions to make in a fight and people would have a chance of beating the spell. Instead we are just going back to a universe where you need a specific amount of con or you just loose to the same thing over and over again, making what I already consider boring (nwn pvp) even more so. I'll live with the change of course, I always do, I just wish there was more thought put into the issues instead of the simple and undeniably boring approach.

[garrbear758]

[...] Not because of the self important folks saying "I told you so" earlier in this thread, [...]

Ahh, you couldn't resist, of course. Good for you.

Nope. Just like you couldn't resist the allure of "I told you so". Looks like we both failed our will save

As for the rest of what you wrote, if that's the case then why make this change at all? Wizards need help, its true, but that could have been accomplished by making sure folks can't get 40+ saves in all 3 slots. The problem they have had in the current meta is that they are fishing for ones, and even if they get them it can just be prayed away, so they are really fishing for two ones. If that were addressed, a wizard would have choices and decisions to make in a fight and people would have a chance of beating the spell. Instead we are just going back to a universe where you need a specific amount of con or you just loose to the same thing over and over again, making what I already consider boring (nwn pvp) even more so. I'll live with the change of course, I always do, I just wish there was more thought put into the issues instead of the simple and undeniably boring approach.

The problem is that when most spells are save or die/be paralyzed/lose some other way, rebalancing saves would require rebalancing every spell in the game which is a huge undertaking. Its something we've talked about but its a lot more involved than simply lowering reasonable max saves.

Also, please stay on topic and discuss the changes not each other.

[mjones3]

A reminder for everyone to keep things civil. I understand this can be a hot topic but we are all people on the other side of the screen.

[AstralUniverse]

Do you want to stop people from healing through mage's nukes?

yes.

Nerf healing potion chugging, nerf healing kits in combat.

No. This would unnecessarily affect literally every character and every class and it's a huge can of worms that would have fallout which would take months or years to balance afterwards.

So what can we do? Give mages back their core once-in-battle 9 seconds nuke window. This is not uncounterable unless your character can lose all their hp in 9 seconds and this is exactly the sort of builds this update targets. While it is true that most of these builds have monk or a div class in them, there still be a crap load of div/monk builds which dont neglect their con to dust and remain in a pretty good spot.

Also, while it's true that this isnt even a nerf to anything and it just screws low con builds in combat vs timestop users, I think that alone is a big drawback from going 8-10 con ever again for more sensible people who know the game, so in that, it's going to do it's job. Some people will choose to keep their con at 8 and just run away from mages. That's ~An option too.

What better way to celebrate Christmas and ring in the new year than a divisive mechanics change? I had asked the team if they could squeeze in a monk update too, but sadly it wasn't to be.

I can see it...
After a long and tiring inner debate among the team, we've decided that spellsword is too strong now and that EMA will only give +2 ab. Happy Holidays Everyone!

[Ork]

Socks predictions to the 2020 nerf came to fruition. That's data. That's proof. Low CON dex/div builds became more common after the timestop nerf. You can look at those facts yourselves. You can disagree with the timestop revert, but you can't argue with facts. As a low CON dex/div player, you better believe I'm questioning my choices.

Queue the monthly discussion about timestop.

[Shadowy Reality]

[/quote]

Do you want to stop people from healing through mage's nukes?

yes.

Nerf healing potion chugging, nerf healing kits in combat.

No. This would unnecessarily affect literally every character and every class and it's a huge can of worms that would have fallout which would take months or years to balance afterwards.

This might be being a bit off topic, but it's hard not to touch alternatives when discussing the change.

I know it would affect everyone, but are healing potions even necessary? Don't they do more harm than good? They incentivize the need to have burst damage, as otherwise with just a little bit of space one can recover over 200 HP in a single round. Arelith went through many years where Heal Potions were a rare commodity, they weren't craftable and only dropped from Dragons and Wyverns iirc. PvP wasn't wildly unbalanced because of that.

What would exactly happen if they ceased being as big of a factor in PvP as they are now?

The problem is that when most spells are save or die/be paralyzed/lose some other way, rebalancing saves would require rebalancing every spell in the game which is a huge undertaking. Its something we've talked about but its a lot more involved than simply lowering reasonable max saves.

This I can entirely understand. I entirely recognize that making most spells viable in the current meta, without making them too weak, or too strong is a lot of work. I am not naive to say that simply lowering saves or increasing DCs is the solution, it is not. Otherwise disabling spells become as effective as any death spell or burst damage.

[AstralUniverse]

I know it would affect everyone, but are healing potions even necessary?

Yes. Healing kits being the only healing source is too binary and counterable. You have one source that flat-foots you and another source that kicks you off expertise. This is good.

They incentivize the need to have burst damage

They indirectly give more meaning and strength to high burst and crowdcontrol. Is that a bad thing? In this low hp, high ac meta I think it's actually a good thing.

Arelith went through many years where Heal Potions were a rare commodity, they weren't craftable and only dropped from Dragons and Wyverns iirc. PvP wasn't wildly unbalanced because of that.

Arelith also had rogue or bard on absolutely every build and heal skill in the basin. It's a different game now.

What would exactly happen if they ceased being as big of a factor in PvP as they are now?

It would screw warlocks, which is alright I guess, but other than that it would generally screw low ac builds and it's not a good thing to do atm. Lets talk about this again in 6 months.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

Ahh, you couldn't resist, of course. Good for you.

Nope. Just like you couldn't resist the allure of "I told you so". Looks like we both failed our will save

As for the rest of what you wrote, if that's the case then why make this change at all? Wizards need help, its true, but that could have been accomplished by making sure folks can't get 40+ saves in all 3 slots. The problem they have had in the current meta is that they are fishing for ones, and even if they get them it can just be prayed away, so they are really fishing for two ones. If that were addressed, a wizard would have choices and decisions to make in a fight and people would have a chance of beating the spell. Instead we are just going back to a universe where you need a specific amount of con or you just loose to the same thing over and over again, making what I already consider boring (nwn pvp) even more so. I'll live with the change of course, I always do, I just wish there was more thought put into the issues instead of the simple and undeniably boring approach.

The problem is that when most spells are save or die/be paralyzed/lose some other way, rebalancing saves would require rebalancing every spell in the game which is a huge undertaking. Its something we've talked about but its a lot more involved than simply lowering reasonable max saves.

Also, please stay on topic and discuss the changes not each other.

I guess it just comes down to the question of what's better, having a chance on every type of character surviving the wizard or forcing everyone to have 14+ con to do so. As someone who enjoys janky builds from time to time that are indirectly effected by this change even though they are not scary to anyone, I would rather just make sure I always drink death ward and have -pray on a hotkey at the start of the fight in case they try to paralyze me. For those characters, Timestop into evo is just a insta death spell with no save at all, so obviously I would prefer the roll of the dice and access to counters in the form of potions.

[mjones3]

I don't quite get what the issue is. Low con high dex builds now die to timestop spam much easier than their str counterparts. Their STR counterparts still die easier to low con high ac dex builds. And mages die about the same to high con STR nukers.

Some counters to Timestop. If a mage starts casting do the following. None of these are perfect or applicable to everyone but can all counter/possibly counter timestop.

HiPS and avoid it because you're not a valid target anymore.
Rogue grenade with a beholder dust or flashbang.
scroll of Incendiary cloud. Waste their time having to leave the blind AoE. (not sure if possible with the casting speed differences)
Mage yourself? Counterspell.
Terrifying rage.
Potion of silence.
Mighty rage might even break you out of its effects since it ends CC and is an instant action.
Run around a corner/ close a door in their face.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

And mages die about the same to high con STR nukers.

I don't think this is true.

[mjones3]

Maybe not? I don't know for sure but I think someone who can deal 400-600 damage a round and survives the spam will kill them. Considering how easy it is to pierce premonition and such these days.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

I don't quite get what the issue is. Low con high dex builds now die to timestop spam much easier than their str counterparts. Their STR counterparts still die easier to low con high ac dex builds. And mages die about the same to high con STR nukers.

Some counters to Timestop. If a mage starts casting do the following. None of these are perfect or applicable to everyone but can all counter/possibly counter timestop.

HiPS and avoid it because you're not a valid target anymore.
Rogue grenade with a beholder dust or flashbang.
scroll of Incendiary cloud. Waste their time having to leave the blind AoE. (not sure if possible with the casting speed differences)
Mage yourself? Counterspell.
Terrifying rage.
Potion of silence.
Mighty rage might even break you out of its effects since it ends CC and is an instant action.
Run around a corner/ close a door in their face.

Some of these are decent ideas, but none of them are as clean as drinking a potion of death ward and making the wizard try to dispel it first before they cast the death spell, to use gar's comparison. Now if shield blocked issacs even if you didn't have abj focus, we might be on to something.

[AstralUniverse]

I don't quite get what the issue is. Low con high dex builds now die to timestop spam much easier than their str counterparts. Their STR counterparts still die easier to low con high ac dex builds. And mages die about the same to high con STR nukers.

Some counters to Timestop. If a mage starts casting do the following. None of these are perfect or applicable to everyone but can all counter/possibly counter timestop.

HiPS and avoid it because you're not a valid target anymore.
Rogue grenade with a beholder dust or flashbang.
scroll of Incendiary cloud. Waste their time having to leave the blind AoE. (not sure if possible with the casting speed differences)
Mage yourself? Counterspell.
Terrifying rage.
Potion of silence.
Mighty rage might even break you out of its effects since it ends CC and is an instant action.
Run around a corner/ close a door in their face.

These are all valid situational solutions which can do the job if used properly. The main thing to remember tho, is that getting someone's hp bar from 100% to 0% is kinda hard to do in 9 seconds. Most mages dont have hellball AND gr (and maybe even none of the two). They have some damaging spells that are nice, maximized igms is their main damage spell (and they dont have that many of those maximized) and their damage can be out-healed as a result.

Because of that, the argument that fights will be decided by who uses timestop first is simply incorrect. Time stop is a finisher that you ideally used after your enemy is badly wounded. If I see a dexer casting divine shield I might as well nuke them sooner but if my enemy maintains high hp for the course of the fight while handling my summons and passing my DC spells (perfectly possible) there's a chance I'll end up wasting my time stop and they will just click 2 heal pots after. It is by no means a death sentence unless you disrespect your enemy's skills by neglecting your constitution. Simple as that. There's a direct relation between how big your hp pool and how many counters you have to this Timestop.

[Aniel]

Hello everyone,

I wanted to pop in and offer my own insights. Please note that everything I'm about to type largely reflects my own opinions and not that of the entire contributor team.

I originally supported the timestop nerf. I was not pushing for it, but I was asked my thoughts on it and I gave tentative approval purely on the basis that timestop death combos aren't what I consider healthy game design. Being on the receiving end of it, even if it is balanced, isn't very enjoyable. That was the extent of my input on it.

I had always intended to see about doing more eventually to try to support casters with what Garrbear hinted at, a large spell review and revision, but ultimately that will not be happening anytime in the immediate future due to the large scope of the project.

Where we were left then is with mages under-performing, and other builds that used to be countered by mages now running rampant. It was to these respects that I also gave my own approval to reverting the timestop nerf.

While we can all agree that timestop evo combos aren't enjoyable I personally believe that having a lopsided, horribly unbalanced meta will erode enjoyment far faster. The goal of the reversion is to push for more diversity among builds and to balance the PvP metagame further.

Personally I understand full well that this isn't ideal, and I don't believe that the contributor team is dead set on keeping timestop as it is forever either, but until such a time that a significant amount of work is put into redistributing mage's power across their spellbooks it will have to remain this way.

I hope this has helped clear up any confusion as to how this decision was reached.