Timestop Reverted Discussion Thread

[Diegovog]

I like to see some needed changes to timestop, especially in this dex/wis/cha potion chugging meta.

But my current concerns are:
Crowd Control immunity gone means that we will go back to huge DC meta with wizards being king of dispel, crowd control and instant kill spells with much less concern to their survivability.
Physical vulnerability below 50% HP is giving yet another powerful tool to spellswords which already are getting huge numbers into AB/AC and dmg.

[Ork]

This was a great change. It needed to happen.

[the grim yeeter]

Let us all please take a moment to read this thread from earlier this year, where a number of players who do know what they are talking about, predicted dead on that this would happen: viewtopic.php?f=37&t=28219

And so this just shows, after all, that the time stop nerf in April wasn't thoroughly considered, balance-wise. The consequence? Eight months of an evidently terrible mechanic that had everyone with mechanical know-how going "what the heck?" the moment it was implemented.

Reverting it was always the best choice. It just took eight months too long. Next time, I genuinely hope people who know their mechanics (and who provide copious examples to support their observations and opinions) will be taken more seriously to prevent these things from happening in the first place.

[Flower Power]

I despise the DEX/CHA meta, so anything that helps them get nuked is a good thing in my book.

Encore.

[Drowboy]

It's now possible to heal through a mage burst extremely easily.
A mage is unlikely to threaten anyone unless they're ungeared, poorly built and make big mistakes.
Periphery SS which has shored mediocre AB with timestop use is in trouble.
The div meta strengthens, div bards espescially, mage-nuking is the biggest danger to them.
Shotgun strengthens vs mages.

Cassandra Curse post

[AstralUniverse]

Path mages (spellswords, wildmages, and shadow mages) will probably need to take a hit in trade for this, but I'm in favor of this change because I dont like that builds with 8 con can have the whole cake and survive with heal potions, and be immune to mages.

[SilverSnake]

I consider that a terrible choice even though i play a soc . This will ruin pvp experiance for me , fights will be terribly dull now . Timestops on timestops. Timestop and death magic , timestop and storm. To people who think casters could use this buff . I think they should just take away the morde shards and not do something this drastic.

[Arienette]

I am extremely pleased about this change for several reasons.

Thanks to the team for responding to feedback and/or the evident issues caused by a harmless Time Stop.

[Nitro]

100% a great change. Deciding to have low CON will actually be a dangerous choice with consequences again, not just a default go to for higher stats elsewhere.

[Tarkus the dog]

Now that the wild mages can cut your HP in half during timestop again and then proceed to kill you, what exactly is the counter to this outside of having your own mages to counter timestop with a timestop or a gang of axe throwing halflings and arrow flinging elves to break their concentration?

[Bunnysmack]

Now that the wild mages can cut your HP in half during timestop again and then proceed to kill you, what exactly is the counter to this outside of having your own mages to counter timestop with a timestop or a gang of axe throwing halflings and arrow flinging elves to break their concentration?

Same counter that has always been in place: Shoot first. Still dependent on concentration rolls. Still can't target if you mess with line of sight somehow. Wild mage is scary cause it counters everything, but ALSO everything counters it right back, especially melee or ranged DPS. They pay to have that power, they pay by having no oppose-roll class skills, low hp, and no AC. It's rocket-launcher tag in both directions.

[Tarkus the dog]

Now that the wild mages can cut your HP in half during timestop again and then proceed to kill you, what exactly is the counter to this outside of having your own mages to counter timestop with a timestop or a gang of axe throwing halflings and arrow flinging elves to break their concentration?

Same counter that has always been in place: Shoot first. Still dependent on concentration rolls. Still can't target if you mess with line of sight somehow. Wild mage is scary cause it counters everything, but ALSO everything counters it right back, especially melee or ranged DPS. They pay to have that power, they pay by having no oppose-roll class skills, low hp, and no AC. It's rocket-launcher tag in both directions.

I hope you're not suggesting that the solution is to be the one to initiate the PvP, because if the PvP is initiated by default and your literal first action is not getting into the mage's face ( As in, you being in the hug-range of them as melee as it starts) -- They get timestop off and you die. I'm aware they have no AC or discipline, however that doesn't matter when my character is in the fugue. Like, I get it -- This is the pro-gamer-move-big-barbarian-guy-strategy, but it's not really fun for the other person.

EDIT: I also understand that once they shoot their musket the wild mages is regulated down to normal mage without discipline -- But, again, my question stands. Unless it's entirely fair for them to have the ability to take out one person from the enemy team ( ... or give give your friends unbreachable fire/acid/magic shields. At least 80 SR is the thing of the past ).

[jomonog]

Im not fussed by timestop reversion really. At the end of the day its just a question of which builds have the most unsatisfying experience pvp as you'll never really balance things entirely. Nerf one thing and another thing pops up. Timestop is now once again probably going to be the strategy defining pvp experience for those who can.

Can we confirm though now that e-dodge is not being touched ? Surely now with blinding speed nerf, gear nerfs, time stop, etc this gives enough play against dex divine builds to balance pvp back to where peoples want it to be? I think its good where possible to have some certainty about upcoming changes so we can build and plan and grind without fear of things changing again too much.

[Itikar]

I am sorry, but I am not really sure this change really manages to make low constitution builds and dexterity builds in general less functional. And the rollback brings the situation back to the original problems

Of course, I will suspend my judgement for now, until the full effects of the change will be seen, and ultimately I certainly won't lose sleep over the balance of a PvP system that is not really good in the first place. But I am really afraid it will be worse.

The server take on timestop was something I particularly liked and it encouraged a spellcaster playstyle that was a bit deeper and more nuanced than "who hits first", and now we are regrettably back to square one.

I commend the intention to make divine dips less appealing, but I would have preferred a change with fewer side-effects and more extensive, such as that heal potion nerf that was proposed a while back. Or anyway a change similar to that of the epic damage reduction lowering. The aftermath of this timestop revert seems to have quite a few excessive side effects and a buff to classes, arcane casters, that were already very strong in the right hands, and which therefore did not really need it in my humble opinion.

But again, let's see how things go first, at least.

[Archnon]

I am eager to see the results of this change and I can respect how it makes Monk/Divine dips more problematic. The more stats you have to gear up for, the harder it is.

However, I will say this. I feel like this solution to having some type of overpowered meta out there was to just hand out a bigger gun to the other side. In the end, if you keep handing out bigger guns to solve these problems, you just end up with a lot if itchy trigger fingers.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

I would have like to see new life into certain arcane specialist/paths to bring more bite to the table over time stop just being really strong. It represented proper DnD when you could not effect people while Time was Stopped and was still really powerful when utulized right in DnD (and was still before this revert). Know we have to consciously use things like -pray to counter timestop which I never was a fan of (not a fan of pvp meta and the -pray feature in general, but that is a whole other philosophy discussion). I understand 'I have no opinion as I am skilled/veteran PvPer', but I was actually looking forward to creative ideas (ideas that take me far longer than 8 months to actualize because I am a REALLY SLOW PROGRESSING player) I had cooked up to counter the low con meta.

[kinginyellow]

This patch has brought me a little closer to heaven.

[Might-N-Magic]

This was a great change. It needed to happen.

Doubt (X)

I haven't lost PVP too many times in my career, but most have been due to Timestop (aka, might-as-well-get-up-and-take-a-bathroom--break-because-you-can't-do-anything-about-it).

Breaking something that affects everybody else negatively just to nuke one lousy build-type is a dumb way to "balance" things and since when do we change the entire reality just because someone else made their dude to have 10 con? Geeze.

Anytime you might as well be afk because it's not going to matter is a situation that should be remedied mechanically with good game design, not more bad game design. This is not the way to "balance" any sort of game. Timestop and True Sight are the worst offenders.

For the record, I have no DEX/CHA guy at all and never plan on building one and have never had a dude with less than 12 con/toughness in forever. It's still poor game design that does nothing but reek of cheese and/or class-favortism.

If you want to "fix" a divine dip, you fix the divine dip itself. You limit the AC/DMG gained by DMight/Shield to X levels of a divine class like most every other server has. Boom. Done. Personally, I don't find it a problem simply due to wind-up, so who cares if a guy wants to waste 5 rounds "powering up" all his little buffs just to fight you? He'll be dead before he ever gets there if you're not stupid.

[jomonog]

Let us all please take a moment to read this thread from earlier this year, where a number of players who do know what they are talking about, predicted dead on that this would happen: viewtopic.php?f=37&t=28219

And so this just shows, after all, that the time stop nerf in April wasn't thoroughly considered, balance-wise. The consequence? Eight months of an evidently terrible mechanic that had everyone with mechanical know-how going "what the heck?" the moment it was implemented.

Reverting it was always the best choice. It just took eight months too long. Next time, I genuinely hope people who know their mechanics (and who provide copious examples to support their observations and opinions) will be taken more seriously to prevent these things from happening in the first place.

When i read that thread i see lots of really good arguments as to why it was nerfed in the first place. End of the day as i said above decisions like this dont really balance things at all, they just tip the meta back in favour of a different unbalanced strategy that makes some classes just better at PVP than others.

[Arigard]

The issue forever has been monk dips. You can still build caster builds that can sit comfortably at 70 ac without expertise, be full casters and now nuke people with Time-stop. Rather than fix the monk dips we go back to a meta that simply punishes everyone including strength builds which for a long time have been completely disregarded in PvE and PvP. Perhaps changes for them are coming, but I honestly don't see anything that can be added to them at this point that can deal with the dex meta. When monks are hitting for 40-50 dmg a hit due to the amount of damage around on items and class bonuses, even having 20+ DR doesn't help.

The ridiculous high AC builds with epic dodge that require double 20 rolls every round to hit (almost impossible, might as well just run away) is down to monk dips. The broken spell-sword meta is down to monk dips. The fact AC is so high people can completely disregard attributes like con, is largely also down to monks. Divine is also an issue, but at least it's not constant, it requires feat investment and wind up.

Monk dips and monk as a class is fundamentally broken and it's left a trail across the balance of the server that simply is not being addressed. Monk items got 'nerfed' but it did absolutely nothing to actually effect the meta because other things still got buffed like monk gloves that ended up getting ninja buffed to +4. I don't get it. It's not a nerf if you rebuff things to balance out the nerfs.

Can we please just finally balance the glaringly obvious things that are actually broken? If AC creep wasn't so high and every build couldn't just push their AC to crazy levels with a 3 dip, we wouldn't be in the position to begin with where we need work arounds constantly.

PvP where every encounter ends up with you simply being frozen for 9 seconds and then blitzed down by spells, or hellballed/greater ruin combo'ed whilst you can't do anything and finished off by summons is just a terrible experience in general. Time-stop is literally an "I win button" versus anyone that doesn't have it. Casters have more than enough in their arsenal to nuke down opposition already.

[the grim yeeter]

Let us all please take a moment to read this thread from earlier this year, where a number of players who do know what they are talking about, predicted dead on that this would happen: viewtopic.php?f=37&t=28219

And so this just shows, after all, that the time stop nerf in April wasn't thoroughly considered, balance-wise. The consequence? Eight months of an evidently terrible mechanic that had everyone with mechanical know-how going "what the heck?" the moment it was implemented.

Reverting it was always the best choice. It just took eight months too long. Next time, I genuinely hope people who know their mechanics (and who provide copious examples to support their observations and opinions) will be taken more seriously to prevent these things from happening in the first place.

When i read that thread i see lots of really good arguments as to why it was nerfed in the first place.

Can you share with us which arguments those are?

[jomonog]

Can you share with us which arguments those are?

I could but it would be a waste of my time repeating them when they are already pretty well set out in the thread including from current devs who were very much in the nerf timestop camp at the time.

[jomonog]

The ridiculous high AC builds with epic dodge that require double 20 rolls every round to hit (almost impossible, might as well just run away) is down to monk dips. The broken spell-sword meta is down to monk dips. The fact AC is so high people can completely disregard attributes like con, is largely also down to monks. Divine is also an issue, but at least it's not constant, it requires feat investment and wind up.

Monk dips and monk as a class is fundamentally broken and it's left a trail across the balance of the server that simply is not being addressed. Monk items got 'nerfed' but it did absolutely nothing to actually effect the meta because other things still got buffed like monk gloves that ended up getting ninja buffed to +4. I don't get it. It's not a nerf if you rebuff things to balance out the nerfs.

I cant agree that the problem is monk dips when the builds this timestop reversion are aimed at are divine dex builds which dont dip monk. The only monk dip PVP meta builds are spellmonk (27/3) and maybe ranger/monk (27/3) both of which dont hit that high ac and are in my view fairly well balanced at the moment. I dont think monk dips are a problem at all.

[the grim yeeter]

Can you share with us which arguments those are?

I could but it would be a waste of my time repeating them when they are already pretty well set out in the thread

What's the point of your post, then?

[...] including from current devs who were very much in the nerf timestop camp at the time.

How is this relevant? Smells like argumentum ad verecundiam to me. Believe me, there are most certainly devs, past and current, who really are not that great at understanding mechanics and balancing. It would be a fallacy to base your faith in their (and anyone's) mechanical expertise on their title or role.

[Arigard]

I cant agree that the problem is monk dips when the builds this timestop reversion are aimed at are divine dex builds which dont dip monk. The only monk dip PVP meta builds are spellmonk (27/3) and maybe ranger/monk (27/3) both of which dont hit that high ac and are in my view fairly well balanced at the moment. I dont think monk dips are a problem at all.

70+ ac isn't high then I suppose?

I also guess Cleric/Monk doesn't exist, or Druid/monk, or Shaman/monk, or Ranger/AA/Monk. You can stick monk on a wizard/pm and hit 70+ ac whilst still having 42-43 DCs. Monk is universally the one dip that makes pretty much any dex based build better across the board on 9/10 builds with barely any investment except 14 or 16 wisdom.

Monk is the single most broken dip out there in what it provides for 3 levels in contributing to the dex meta & it always has been. Divine comes a close second, at least it requires feats, charisma/str 13 and a wind up. Those requirements are usually why monk is simply better pound for pound across the board.

The dex meta has always been lead by monk dips, closely followed by divine dips, because monk AC is simply better than Divine Shield, as it's not dodge and it's constant, plus the other massive benefits you get from dipping monk (Tumble/Discipline/Hide/MS deflect arrows/evasion/mind saves/APR). Everything you can do on a divine high dex build (take low CON + spam potions) you can do on a monk dip, except you don't need to spam divine shield constantly. You can still get amazing saves without needing dark/divine blessing with the right gear.

You simply can't have a problem with a high dex meta and say monk dips aren't a problem but divine is. It makes zero sense. Monk contributes way more generally to the AC creep across the board with less sacrifice.

A) Why is the divine dip suddenly being considered what needs targeting when monk dips still reign supreme? Just balance the dip mechanics for both already. Why do all dips across the board except these two have scaling input? Why do they have this immunity and fear of being touched/balanced when everything else in the game has been on the chopping board at some point?

B) How is this helping vs this meta (dex/high AC chars with low con) when Spellsword/Monks (particularly quarterstaff version) are some of the biggest offenders and this buffs them?

I'm not sure how I feel about this change yet, but rather than dancing around the issue for years isn't it time the source of all these balance issues was just dealt with? Scale the dips already.