Arelith

Why would I make a thread about Astral Deva needing a nerf when I really think all summons are okay. But if we were to hypothetically buff/nerf anything, it should be the Deva rather than the EDK. And WoF is not the only counter to anything, you can also hit the summons to death or ignore them and focus the summoner. Like... why are you trying to kick me out of this thread? lol.

I'm not trying to kick you out of this thread. I just didn't want it to derail any further because of whataboutisms.

You think that summons are OK? Fine.
You think that EDK is OK too? Fine.
You agree that the deva outperforms the EDK?
. . .
But that can only mean that either the deva is too strong or the EDK is too weak!
So you argue for the deva being too strong. OK, but which one is it - "summons are fine" or "deva is too strong" ...aaand suddently we're talking about WoF and that's another very complex topic entirely.


The reason why I started this topic was the fact that EDK compares to the Gate summons very poorly in general, mainly because of its 1/day use.
Gate can be spammed and scrolled, so you'll end up opting for it during PvE most of the time, always saving that one EDK use "for later" - ultimately ending up either never using it at all or being disappointed by its underperformance.

I'm not expecting it to be able to tank bosses like it used to, but ATM it casually dies to low CR monsters which is something that could easily be remedied by giving it a little more physical damage resistance, regeneration or ~something~ ...or at least put it on a cooldown so that using it for fun doesn't feel like such a waste.



The EDK's PvP performance isn't really such a concern of mine TBH. I find its colossal hit box to be very unwieldy and it's super fragile for it to actually fill the role of LOS blocker / area denial niche - air / earth elementals are probably better for that anyway.

There's some things in this thread people seem to be ignoring. EDK has more SR than other spell based summons, True Seeing and a greater fear aura, that when it hits can -10 across the board/versus the lesser fear aura of other summons.

An EDK currently cannot be WoFed away by anything outside of a cleric/favored soul out of the box (WoF scrolls will not work). Other summons can be out of the box (Conduit, 9th level summons/Mummies/Zombies). Some can have SR (PM Necro/Astral) but there's still a very good chance to remove them with a WoF scroll (around 50%). Whilst clerics can provide their own meaningful SR to Conduit/Mummies, mages cannot. Undead have a hard counter in halt undead.

Tldr: A character outside of a cleric fighting an EDK usually has to fight it. if there is a cleric on the field, then all summons are going to be disappearing. We can argue about the strength of WoF, but that's really another discussion and removing it as a means to remove summons would heavily stack the deck against a ton of mundane builds. For most of these other summons out of the box currently, EDK has elements to it that can make it stronger in differing situations.

The way I currently see EDK is one tool among an arsenal of other tools that casters can choose to have that definitely has a situational place as an out of the box summon. It's not great in all situations (But then what is?), but it will still cause problems or at the very least be a barrier to classes without WoF in their spellbook.

Buff it too much and it becomes an I win button, which it was more of in the past. Does it need a little tweaking? Perhaps, but it's not necessarily weaker in it's current form, it simply caters to different circumstances.

I'm seeing the few arguments defending it are only PvP focused. I am not hearing any PvE argument defending it however. The main defense for pvp is you can't dispel it, and it blocks targeting on pathing. Not that it is good at fighting or anything.

Scylon wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 3:22 am I'm seeing the few arguments defending it are only PvP focused. I am not hearing any PvE argument defending it however. The main defense for pvp is you can't dispel it, and it blocks targeting on pathing. Not that it is good at fighting or anything.

It's not really useful in PvE in any way, I've found.
Better off just using gate every time.

EDK was initially nerfed mainly because it had been too tough for the engame PvE content and could turn fighting even some of the most challenging bosses into an academic excercise.
This is something that you can see S-tier builds pull off on regular basis nowdays btw. - so the meta has changed since then as well as how PvE is being regarded and treated.
However, the feat's relative early accessibility during the character's level progression meant that we'd have lvl 22 casters soloing Abazuur for example, so the nerf with regards to EDK's PvE performance wasn't unwarranted.

Then it became also a PvP concern all of sudden and the narrative quickly changed into EDK's PvE utility being sacrificed on the altar of PvP balance, or rather "it is being shifted to different niche" to be more precise.
The actual result: lackluster PvP tool with virtually absent PvE utility.

In PvP the EDK had been only oppressive if the range of strategy applied to combat it consisted of:
"ATTACK THE DRAGON!"

Outrunning the EDK while gunning for the caster has always been a perfectly viable strategy then and now and I've seen it successfully executed many times over.
Nerfing the EDK's durability only facilitated playstyles that prefer thinking over the excel sheet rather than IG.

I admit that simply conjuring the EDK doesn't require much skill either, but its successful execution does (as you're suddenly required to juggle 3 things at once - piloting the EDK with the player tool, strategically positioning your toon and squeezeing in any possible tempo for some kind of proactive action) and still can be trumped by point-click level strategy in PvP despite any skill or effort involved on the caster's end.


The SR argument is somewhat interesting. Without delving too much into the WoF issue, both Gate and Create Greater Undead are spammable/scrollable spells - this leaves room for an attrition fight when pitted against a WoF capable opponent.
(I'd also argue that using WoF scrolls vs. Gate summons that have SR is a trap and the incorrect thing to do - best case scenario you're achieving tempo parity by trading scrolls, worst case you're wasting a round of combat and a scroll)
EDK is a 1/rest ability and the option to casually recast it once it gets unsummonned just isn't there. That's why I'd argue that its high SR is absolutely justified. It's not so much a boon but rather a mandatory feature for the feat to be even remotely relevant for PvP purposes in any shape or form (btw. it IS possible to WoF scroll an EDK away - it's just challenging as you need to lower its SR with a Mord first).
If anything, this could be used as a very valid argument for the conduit summons to be given some SR too.

It does seem extremely odd to have three different epic summoning feats, two of which are mirrors of each other.

-XXX- wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 7:36 am EDK was initially nerfed mainly because it had been too tough for the engame PvE content and could turn fighting even some of the most challenging bosses into an academic excercise.

It was nerfed because people like me said things like "This dragon can 1v1 my fully optimized powerbuild with IE numbers of 39 ab, 73 ac on a brycer. Please nerf" So it got nerf. Because it was a braindead pvp winner. Just to clarify, maybe it was also a braindead epic boss killer but it wasnt the MAIN reason it was nerfed. It was nerfed with pvp in mind first and it wasnt nerfed all that much. It still has the same SR, meaning most people will have to face tank it or use 2 scrolls assuming they have 50+ lore. It still has deceptively high ab and damage and comes out hasted. I really think you cannot buff that thing even a little bit without it becoming a braindead combat winner again.

What if you just double its HP and give it Regeneration 25?

A WM will still eat it for breakfast, just a bit slower, but at least it will feel a bit more threatening, worth an epic feat.

AstralUniverse wrote: Sat Jul 17, 2021 4:31 am

-XXX- wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 7:36 am EDK was initially nerfed mainly because it had been too tough for the engame PvE content and could turn fighting even some of the most challenging bosses into an academic excercise.

It was nerfed because people like me said things like "This dragon can 1v1 my fully optimized powerbuild with IE numbers of 39 ab, 73 ac on a brycer. Please nerf" So it got nerf. Because it was a braindead pvp winner. Just to clarify, maybe it was also a braindead epic boss killer but it wasnt the MAIN reason it was nerfed. It was nerfed with pvp in mind first and it wasnt nerfed all that much. It still has the same SR, meaning most people will have to face tank it or use 2 scrolls assuming they have 50+ lore. It still has deceptively high ab and damage and comes out hasted. I really think you cannot buff that thing even a little bit without it becoming a braindead combat winner again.

Irongron wrote: Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:58 pm The change to EDK stats is actually unrelated to the recent updates, but has been in the works for some time. and based far more around their PVE invulnerability than PvP. Given how many hostile spawns on Arelith are built, that level of DR made them essentially invulnerable to almost everything.

I spend a lot of time monitoring how dungeons are handled, and these summons were the one-stop-shop to defeat some of Arelith's most powerful monsters, creatures that should be defeated by a concerted group effort of PCs rather than a summon while the actual players hang back and watch.

I think this puts them in a good place.

Please stop pushing the false narrative AstralUniverse. As you can see EDK really got changed mainly because of how it performed during PvE.
Irongron stated that the EDK was put in a good place back then, yet 2 years later the general consensus among players of characters that can take this feat seems to be that it's not worth taking.

Again, I'm not arguing for a rollback or a major buff, but I'd say that a minor tweak might be warranted as the current version of the feat grossly underperforms in PvE and offers very little when compared to Gate in PvP. After all, the server and its meta has evolved over the course of the past 2 years too.

-XXX- wrote: Sat Jul 17, 2021 10:12 am
yet 2 years later the general consensus among players of characters that can take this feat seems to be that it's not worth taking.

Best part of the nerf right here. Summoning dragons was always a silly part of the game in a persistent world, dragons should be rare and unique. Changing the feat so it summons something with high damage output and good offense but weak on defense might make it a neat feat to take though, since it will give it a niche use. But yeah, dragons aren't pets

"keep X bad so that it is rare and mysterious" is a very questionable design philosphy. Especially when you can change X into Y if X doesn't fit the server's theme.

-XXX- wrote: Sat Jul 17, 2021 6:09 pm "keep X bad so that it is rare and mysterious" is a very questionable design philosphy. Especially when you can change X into Y if X doesn't fit the server's theme.

Oh, we agree 100% on this. It should be something else.

I just meant that not seeing a dragon at the end of every dungeon like it was waiting to be yoinked by some moe on an island in the trackless sea instead of off doing something befitting of an ancient race of powerful creatures has been a nice side effect of the nerf. And that's leaving out Dracoliches. Sammaster, former student of Elminster turned arch enemy spent years and years figuring out how to make one. And yet every evil mage, cleric, sorcerer, druid, and probably shaman and favored soul on arelith is like "dude, you could have saved so much time if you just found the stream book".

Yeah... Not the biggest issue in the world, but since you brought it up I couldn't help myself.

Babylon System is the Vampire wrote: Sat Jul 17, 2021 6:23 pm Sammaster, former student of Elminster turned arch enemy spent years and years figuring out how to make one. And yet every evil mage, cleric, sorcerer, druid, and probably shaman and favored soul on arelith is like "dude, you could have saved so much time if you just found the stream book".

There are no stream books for the dracolich.


Anyway, the ability's flavor should not reflect on its mechanical performance. If dragon summons being too common is seen as awkward and immersion breaking on the account of them being dragons, then they should probably be changed to something else...

Now you are speaking my language. Its Prime Time!

OK, after some research I'd like to report the following issue with EDK and its hit box (technically it's not a bug, but rather a design flaw so I'm posting it here).


The issue concerns utilizing the EDK vs bosses Quorusthalatharxyl (Aurilite Ice dragon) and Hladrathagalthyarsryl (Styx dragon).
Both of these bosses have an oversized hit box - this causes the EDK getting stuck (really consistently) and unable to reach their target while suffering a one-sided beating.

Balance aspect of the EDK put aside, I don't believe that any summon should be performing this way.

-XXX- wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 5:04 pm OK, after some research I'd like to report the following issue with EDK and its hit box (technically it's not a bug, but rather a design flaw so I'm posting it here).


The issue concerns utilizing the EDK vs bosses Quorusthalatharxyl (Aurilite Ice dragon) and Hladrathagalthyarsryl (Styx dragon).
Both of these bosses have an oversized hit box - this causes the EDK getting stuck (really consistently) and unable to reach their target while suffering a one-sided beating.

Balance aspect of the EDK put aside, I don't believe that any summon should be performing this way.

Confirming this issue. It also happens against giants and other large creatures.