Epic Spell: Planar Conduit

[Drowboy]

You're about to get extremely lit up for this opinion, maybe rightly, but I really do have to know: You're still playing a nec with mummy dust, right? I'm not really being accusatory here, I promise. I'm assuming good faith here: You have seen other stuff get updated to be, frankly, overpowered, and have taken Mdust not getting brought to (overpowered power creep parity) as a bad thing, rather than as a yardstick for how other stuff should get throttled back.

If we've had so much blatant power creep that planar conduit's "eating competent players whole" stats are where any hours/level summon should be? Everything needs throttling back.

[Xerah]

Things have been brought up to the level of mummy dust, which was one of the good balancing metrics (even if I personally think it's still way too strong as is, there is some benefit to allowing "ez-mode" level 30 to see content). Just because it hasn't been updated in a few years, doesn't mean it should get another update. Benchmarks should remain benchmarks for good reason and unless it's on an R/L, then nothing needs to be better than mummy dust. PC exists as a spell because people were sad that they didn't get to use it as a good character. Balancing new summons is not always an easy task and generally why I prefer using reskins rather than entirely new creatures.

[-XXX-]

You're about to get extremely lit up for this opinion, maybe rightly, but I really do have to know: You're still playing a nec with mummy dust, right? I'm not really being accusatory here, I promise. I'm assuming good faith here: You have seen other stuff get updated to be, frankly, overpowered, and have taken Mdust not getting brought to (overpowered power creep parity) as a bad thing, rather than as a yardstick for how other stuff should get throttled back.

If we've had so much blatant power creep that planar conduit's "eating competent players whole" stats are where any hours/level summon should be? Everything needs throttling back.

As a matter of fact I am playing a conju/nec with both, so I can casually swap them around and test both on Arelith live. I've yet to see either "eating competent players whole" however. I don't really consider either to be that much of a PvP threat TBH. My personal go-to pet for PvP would still be Gate, but I digress.

Yes, conduit summons can reach some impressive stats, but as has been outlined in the previous thread, that requires a lot of build around and a dedicated spell list, resulting in a one-trick pony situation. More PvP-viable builds tailored for a more versatile playstyle simply won't have the conduit in its most daunting super saiyan form - and that's where I believe is the spot for summons to be in the current meta.


Finally, as I mentioned before, I think that slapping SR on hrs/lvl summons is a poor design. It's OK for powerful summons to exist if they have a reliable counterplay. The Spell Resistance spell as well as the Deathlock/Necro Specialist undead summon SR puts this dynamic on its head. Yes, both the dust and the conduit are nuts if you've just wasted precious tempo reading a WoF scroll to no effect and the "are they? / aren't they?" guessing game does not bring anything to the table.

[Zavandar]

Half the mages I see with mummy dust do that thing where they hide their extremely fully buffed, stealthed vampires in a corner or something. That's like half the point of the vampires. Pretending they aren't swinging for "good enough" AB, on three bodies with collision, and backed up by a mage? Come on.


edit: I didn't bulls str the other two, ab should be a few points higher. easy to test on your own.

So, real talk, this was on an FS, but, fun thing about that: FS both has spell resistance to help with WoF and Deafening Clang, which does work on any summon with a weapon.

The planar conduit guys use weapons, no?

Let's not try and shift the summon overton window to Mummy dust, a spell that has a heads side that says "farm to 30 effortlessly" and a tails side that says "gank anyone unprepared or at least body block them while they try and get rid of them/get to the caster." as somehow underpowered.

Meanwhile:

[Party in the forest at midnight]

Balancing new summons is not always an easy task and generally why I prefer using reskins rather than entirely new creatures.

Why not make everything a reskin of mummies and vampires, and you could use your stream or alignment to determine the skin for it?

[MissEvelyn]

Balancing new summons is not always an easy task and generally why I prefer using reskins rather than entirely new creatures.

Why not make everything a reskin of mummies and vampires, and you could use your stream or alignment to determine the skin for it?

I imagine it's because that would completely disregard creature types and their immunities, something that is a core feature in D&D (especially this edition).

[Party in the forest at midnight]

Right but we can reskin familiars to have all kinds of abilities they wouldn't have in P&P either. The whole issue is people want mummy dust but not blatantly evil. So instead of this uncomfortable balance game going on, why not just reskin mummy dust?

[-XXX-]

They're not the same. Undead summonning works with actual recastable and scrollable spells while the conduit is a 1x/rest use feat.*
You can't just copy paste one onto the other and call it a day.
There's a valid reason for the dust to have slightly weaker summons when compared to the conduit, it's just that the difference shouldn't be that palpable.

*also, remember how I mentioned that undead animation ignores summon warding? That's actually a pretty big deal in PvP.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

Yeah, so why not just give it to everyone and this entire conversation could be done with.

[Ork]

ITT: XXX trying real hard not to get planar conduit nerfed.

[-XXX-]

ITT: XXX trying real hard not to get planar conduit nerfed.

Right back at you, real good and constructive talk as always

[Zavandar]

ITT: XXX trying real hard not to get planar conduit nerfed.

Right back at you, real good and constructive talk as always

could we constructively talk about this please:

[a shrouded figure]

Level 30 Conjuration Specialist w/ Auto Still 2 or 3, PC, ESF: Conj, EMA, and Armor Skin is a bit hilarious if anyone cares to try it. 45 SR Archons or Shiradi are absolutely hilarious when you’re hiding behind massive AC and throwing out quickened spells for support.

Sure KD is always a threat to the caster, but because you rested until you double 6’d your PC cast, they’re more afraid of you than you are of them- lol.

Also Re: 52 AB, as the proud owner of a 50 AB epic fiend, I will concur that it is savagely threatening

[-XXX-]

could we constructively talk about this please:

Yeah, I'm not using that atm, so nerf religiously
Not a fan of the alignment lock of summons. 48 AB I was aware of, but 52 is a bit higher than that.

[Zavandar]

could we constructively talk about this please:

Yeah, I'm not using that atm, so nerf religiously
Not a fan of the alignment lock of summons. 48 AB I was aware of, but 52 is a bit higher than that.

99% sure all variants can achieve this ab since the latest conduit update.

[Curve]

52 an summon is nutty . Consider how many melee builds can’t get anywhere near those numbers. Those are characters.

[Hazard]

-XXX- does raise a lot of good points.

[Zavandar]

52 an summon is nutty . Consider how many melee builds can’t get anywhere near those numbers. Those are characters.

that's also just the AB. let's look at the damage:


which then averages to:


52/50 ab and that kind of damage. These summons can kill a lot of people in a round.

[xf1313]

People focus too much on the summon, but in reality? The caster can be killed rather easily. Especially when monsters recognize that...

10 con wizard says hi....

Perhaps shadowmage can have a shadow stream, fits the theme.

[-XXX-]

99% sure all variants can achieve this ab since the latest conduit update.

OK, so if that's the case, help me out here - where's that extra 4 AB coming from?
Because some of us have done a round of number crunching and PGCC testing the last time this has been brough up and the conclusion was that the max AB for conduit summons was 48, given that you'd be willing to absolutely skew your build toward reaching the max AB for your summons, shooting yourself in the foot and comitting your entire spell list to it in the process.

I've noticed no summon update announcements or changes to the summons that I've been using IG since then, so how is it 52 all of sudden?

[The Vandals of Rome]

I have been playing with necromantic summons and conduits on various PCs.

Planar Conduit summons are grossly overpowered, can be elevated even higher with minimal buffs and have become something I feel like I can't not take even on necromancers. I don't think undead should be buffed. I think planar conduit should be nerfed.

[Arienette]

99% sure all variants can achieve this ab since the latest conduit update.

OK, so if that's the case, help me out here - where's that extra 4 AB coming from?
Because some of us have done a round of number crunching and PGCC testing the last time this has been brough up and the conclusion was that the max AB for conduit summons was 48, given that you'd be willing to absolutely skew your build toward reaching the max AB for your summons, shooting yourself in the foot and comitting your entire spell list to it in the process.

I've noticed no summon update announcements or changes to the summons that I've been using IG since then, so how is it 52 all of sudden?

My napkin math says a pure 30 caster with ESF Conjuration and ESF Trans will get it to 47/48 with Aid. So I assume additional short term buffs (battletide?) and perhaps a bard song.

[Scurvy Cur]

My napkin math says a pure 30 caster with ESF Conjuration and ESF Trans will get it to 47/48 with Aid. So I assume additional short term buffs (battletide?) and perhaps a bard song.

Many layers of content here.

[-XXX-]

Ah, I see... so that'd make aura of vitality + battletide + aid + deafening clang. That's four rounds of wind-up (five to clang both summons) to apply all the necessary round/lvl duration buffs. And the summonner is a pure caster build with no discipline.
While factually not wrong, this is pure unbridled theorycrafting.

[Drowboy]

what do you think battletide does

Ok gonna be constructive here.
Summon in question: Planar Conduit Slaadi because that's what I've got built right now and I'm not making a fresh pgcc 30 to argue with people pretending not to know math or how to test this stuff on their own. These are, give or take, the worst ones, lacking a weapon to enhance or armor to vestement.

Build in question: 27 favored soul, conj, no transmu. (Recognize that transmu would make this at least a little easier).

Unbuffed, right out of summoning gate:
White

grey

Per the wiki, the grey has a 2d6 death attack and the white has 1d12 acid. Their template stats, to refresh-


Sheets are inaccurate as ever, combat log:


Now, using the simple expedient of pre-school level addition, we know that a non-transmutation focused favored soul can still, for a considerable time, provide these summons with +9 to dex, str, con, like so (luckily, they have uneven stats, so these buffs even them out nicely:


and combat log:


AC can be further enhanced with shield of faith and a PGCC default +3 barkskin potion, you'll obviously have a better resource IG:



As well as burning your precious spell slots for haste (or having a friendly mage cast mass haste) for the usual plus four.

The other numbers-
Aid, prayer, bless.

Short term, for sure. Adjust everything higher, for longer, for a transmuter.

In combat:


Bit much. tl;dr, even the "Worst" ones, with the least ability to boost their power, achieve, for a considerable length of time (An epic transmuter, for instance, will be looking at 56 AC/46 AB for much longer just using the available long term buffs) Stats that pretty easily would let them replace a player even if they weren't doing 7d10+1d12 +str damage, with 15/+7 DR and regen. It takes a negligible amount of time to apply bulls, cats, bears, and an AoV, and we all know it.

If you believe my numbers are somehow wrong and that well ackshully thats just for 3 minutes I welcome you to roll up a level 27 caster with planar conduit in good faith and apply buffs appropriately. Hell, I'm probably missing some easy buffs. I'm certainly missing any sort of weird edge case builds.