Arelith

Monk specifically shouldnt be able to turn off their eye glow.

Detect Corruption sounds absolutely awesome as a much more interactive replacement to the binary and useless detect evil.

Ithalan wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 10:53 pm

The GrumpyCat wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 8:21 pm The sad fact is that for some mechanics, we have to allow for the dumbest, most malignant, most unfriendly player around, and when it comes to revealing mechanics, especially ones that would effect a very wide vareity of pcs, that's the case with DE.

Addressing this specifically with regard to Detect Evil; Why? What does the ability actually offer that is beneficial to roleplay interactions on the server and worth the potential for abuse? I started a paladin character recently, and I can't think of a single scenario to use it in where it wouldn't just cut off a more interesting avenue of roleplay for either me, the target or most likely both of us.

I get that it was a thing in pnp D&D because Smite Evil was a precious resource you didn't want to waste against something that isn't evil. But on Arelith Divine Smite is just a 3 minute cooldown at most that still has minor benefits even when used against someone of your own alignment. Even if you use it to relatively little effect, it's going to be available again by the time you find something likely to have a different alignment than the previous target.

I actually somewhat agree with you there. As I believe I said before, I think it's now nurfed to the point of not impotency, and costly enough that Paladins don't want to spam it- so I don't think it's a danger. But beyond the 'well it's a signature thing of pnp paladins so of course we should have it' - it brings much useful to the table.

Cleric Languages, I would opt for maybe grant it at level 6. The language you get determined by the deity you serve. One time deal, you change deity, you gotta learn the new language.

Could do things like give Neutral clerics of Good gods celestial. Sylvan clerics get Sylvan. Clerics of Mask/Brandobaris and other thiefy themed gods get Thieves Cant.

In Sorrow We Trust wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 6:05 pm

garrbear758 wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 5:11 pm Totally agree. One thing I wanted to do but never got around to when I was on the team was a corruption mechanic to replace things like alignment gates and detect evil. It would have been similar to the piety meter, but go up from summoning undead / demons, using objectively evil spells or abilities like curse weapon, dark invocations, etc. Replace detect evil with detect corruption, and make it an aoe instead of targeting a single person so you can't completely narrow down who the source is with one button.

i'm stealing this idea garrbear

Please do. I was hoping someone would take it up. There should still be a FD thread for it that has it a bit more fleshed out, but I don't think it was ever officially approved.

The best ways of improving -detect_evil revolve around the delete button.

-XXX- wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 3:58 pm The best ways of improving -detect_evil revolve around the delete button.

I dont necessarily disagree here but like... I think it's still salvageable. Unlike other lore-supported things we have which are not all that good in nwn PW (*cough* scry) I really do believe still that detect evil (or corruption) can be reworked into something cool.

I think detect evil should check the current area, and give feedback on how 'tainted' it is, whether by recent PCs, NPCs, local spawns and recent spellcasting (evil spells when cast would add to value of the area).

It would provide RP opportunities to paladins "I cannot spend another moment in this tavern, it reeks of licentiousness!"

As for items with evil restriction? No way I'm getting rid of those, this is a D&D fantasy RPG, and such things are massively thematic (besides there is UMD)

Mythal should be changed to just restrict monster races.

Stuff like smugglers? This is on players really, it's very much metagaming.

Overall? I'm not sure anyone much cares who is evil and who isn't any longer - every second character is a warlock. This just isn't a big issue, at all.

Irongron wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:43 am As for items with evil restriction? No way I'm getting rid of those, this is a D&D fantasy RPG, and such things are massively thematic (besides there is UMD)

The main items mentioned in this thread are not really alignment-restricted item per se, which were never in serious question, but actual racial items that are currently alignment-restricted due to the lack of mechanics at the time to properly differentiate subraces.

It is hardly thematic or immersive that evil elves can use drow weapons whereas non-evil drow cannot, and end often being easily outed due to the widespread diffusion of these items. It is definitely manageable, but hardly the best system to maintain or encourage, especially following the mold of D&d, which allows subrace restrictions. Getting rid of drow using moonblades was a step in the right direction, but now please let also drow have their own /racial/ weapons too. Of evil alignment weapons we have more than aplenty, of drow racial weapons on the other hand there are mechanically none.

Itikar wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 11:56 am

Irongron wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:43 am As for items with evil restriction? No way I'm getting rid of those, this is a D&D fantasy RPG, and such things are massively thematic (besides there is UMD)

The main items mentioned in this thread are not really alignment-restricted item per se, which were never in serious question, but actual racial items that are currently alignment-restricted due to the lack of mechanics at the time to properly differentiate subraces.

It is hardly thematic or immersive that evil elves can use drow weapons whereas non-evil drow cannot, and end often being easily outed due to the widespread diffusion of these items. It is definitely manageable, but hardly the best system to maintain or encourage, especially following the mold of D&d, which allows subrace restrictions. Getting rid of drow using moonblades was a step in the right direction, but now please let also drow have their own /racial/ weapons too. Of evil alignment weapons we have more than aplenty, of drow racial weapons on the other hand there are mechanically none.

What if they just said they were using it and actually weren't?

That sounds like a pretty easy way to get out of this issue of "hehe.... you better equip that crossbow so i know you're evil..."

And if the issue is demanding it on the spot, then that's easily reported.
I personally would just go "let me go stow my old one and then we can try it out" then come back and if they ask why it looks different you can argue it was customised, which is also a pretty weird "gotcha" mentality if they go so far as to use the appearance.

Sounds like alot of the issues here are rare or not really a thing and if they are you can easily report them and fake your way out of it.

To top it off, the Mythal has a multitude of ways to bypass it now. It actually was INCREASED recently to 4 ways.


Edit:
I'll go find the corruption fd when it comes up because I don't know how I feel about it.
It just feels like yet another gotcha mechanic but who knows.

Sincra wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 2:52 pm What if they just said they were using it and actually weren't?

That sounds like a pretty easy way to get out of this issue of "hehe.... you better equip that crossbow so i know you're evil..."

And if the issue is demanding it on the spot, then that's easily reported.
I personally would just go "let me go stow my old one and then we can try it out" then come back and if they ask why it looks different you can argue it was customised, which is also a pretty weird "gotcha" mentality if they go so far as to use the appearance.

Sounds like alot of the issues here are rare or not really a thing and if they are you can easily report them and fake your way out of it.

What you describe was not really what I saw happen and overlooks the nature of the issue. What commonly happens is that somebody eagerly gives out a crossbow and the receiver finds themself at an impasse. It then becomes evidently clear to the well-intentioned giver which is the reason for not using the crossbow, and the fun and potential for roleplay in discovering the alignment of the receiver is then irremediably lost.

There are much better and interesting ways to discover the alignment of a non-evil drow. Outing by crossbow is not one of these, plain and simple.

In fact I believe you are looking at the matter from the wrong angle to begin with. The reason why I am personally bothered by this is because I was playing an evil inquisitor type of drow, who often observed their targets for a long time, speculating about their intents, nature and aims, by studying even their smallest acts and demeanors. I found always ways around this crossbow issue, and never gave any weight to the fact in character, but would you not agree that seeing that was for me as player of a character like that an absolutely unneeded spoiler? Because for me it was precisely that.

And while for one or two single drow this may not be an issue, when you begin to monitor the whole drow population of Andunor, even the uncommon or rare instances can become frequent. And no, it was not fun for me at all to learn their alignment OOC in that fashion. I would have preferred as a player not to know it or to learn of it from much more immersive sources.

Call me silly, but for me, mechanics that let me guess so easily the alignment of other player characters are something that actively harms /my/ fun, even when they do not directly affect me.

In Sorrow We Trust wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 6:05 pm

garrbear758 wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 5:11 pm Totally agree. One thing I wanted to do but never got around to when I was on the team was a corruption mechanic to replace things like alignment gates and detect evil. It would have been similar to the piety meter, but go up from summoning undead / demons, using objectively evil spells or abilities like curse weapon, dark invocations, etc. Replace detect evil with detect corruption, and make it an aoe instead of targeting a single person so you can't completely narrow down who the source is with one button.

i'm stealing this idea garrbear

Hah check out Taint mechanic, and slap some heroes of horror / book of vile darkness.

If your corruption meter is at a certain point, magic has a chance to attract demons.

Is it possible to remove the "Death Attack" popup and make it look like a sneak attack?

The number of times I've seen "Wow, that's an assassin's fighting style! You must be evil!"

Irongron wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:43 am I think detect evil should check the current area, and give feedback on how 'tainted' it is, whether by recent PCs, NPCs, local spawns and recent spellcasting (evil spells when cast would add to value of the area).

It would provide RP opportunities to paladins "I cannot spend another moment in this tavern, it reeks of licentiousness!"

As for items with evil restriction? No way I'm getting rid of those, this is a D&D fantasy RPG, and such things are massively thematic (besides there is UMD)

Mythal should be changed to just restrict monster races.

Stuff like smugglers? This is on players really, it's very much metagaming.

Overall? I'm not sure anyone much cares who is evil and who isn't any longer - every second character is a warlock. This just isn't a big issue, at all.

I sort of disagree here. At least when it comes to 'I'm not sure anyone much cares who is evil and who isn't any longer.'

I have on numerous occasions had any real attempt at RP shut out, and replaced with threats of 'Do as I say or die' by anyone who is good aligned. Double points if they are a paladin of some sort.

There are -some- people who are willing to actually RP and not immediately thing "This person is evil so we have to kill one another" But it's way fewer and far between than one may think. Being evil is a good enough justification to allow for exiles, PVP, and anything else you can name to the right sort of people. Even for things which aren't actually a threat to society.

TroubledWaters wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 5:30 pm Is it possible to remove the "Death Attack" popup and make it look like a sneak attack?

The number of times I've seen "Wow, that's an assassin's fighting style! You must be evil!"

This would be amazing. Same for sneak attacks to be honest. I would like to either be able to disguise Death Attacks as Sneak Attacks or simply have a command to disable both (-nosneak) and there would be no sneak or death attacks until toggled again.

Shadowy Reality wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 5:58 pm

TroubledWaters wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 5:30 pm Is it possible to remove the "Death Attack" popup and make it look like a sneak attack?

The number of times I've seen "Wow, that's an assassin's fighting style! You must be evil!"

This would be amazing. Same for sneak attacks to be honest. I would like to either be able to disguise Death Attacks as Sneak Attacks or simply have a command to disable both (-nosneak) and there would be no sneak or death attacks until toggled again.

Honestly just change death attack to sneak attack and add assassin to the sneak attack stacking library zaphiel made. Assassins aren't going to be hurting without it, and it'd fix the metagaming issues without a more complex workaround that may or may not work consistently.

I rarely used detect evil as a paladin. The DC to beat it was so low it made it pretty useless. I never met a paladin that just walked about spamming detect evil.

JubJub wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:32 pm I rarely used detect evil as a paladin. The DC to beat it was so low it made it pretty useless. I never met a paladin that just walked about spamming detect evil.

If it still uses the old formula, the DC scales off of Wisdom and not Charisma, which may explain why it's so low.

It Came From Beneath The Earth wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 5:51 pm

Irongron wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:43 am I think detect evil should check the current area, and give feedback on how 'tainted' it is, whether by recent PCs, NPCs, local spawns and recent spellcasting (evil spells when cast would add to value of the area).

It would provide RP opportunities to paladins "I cannot spend another moment in this tavern, it reeks of licentiousness!"

As for items with evil restriction? No way I'm getting rid of those, this is a D&D fantasy RPG, and such things are massively thematic (besides there is UMD)

Mythal should be changed to just restrict monster races.

Stuff like smugglers? This is on players really, it's very much metagaming.

Overall? I'm not sure anyone much cares who is evil and who isn't any longer - every second character is a warlock. This just isn't a big issue, at all.

I sort of disagree here. At least when it comes to 'I'm not sure anyone much cares who is evil and who isn't any longer.'

I have on numerous occasions had any real attempt at RP shut out, and replaced with threats of 'Do as I say or die' by anyone who is good aligned. Double points if they are a paladin of some sort.

There are -some- people who are willing to actually RP and not immediately thing "This person is evil so we have to kill one another" But it's way fewer and far between than one may think. Being evil is a good enough justification to allow for exiles, PVP, and anything else you can name to the right sort of people. Even for things which aren't actually a threat to society.

I could say the same about evil shutting out good people from rp. How many times have people run into the I'm evil I must kill anyone good attitude. It goes both ways.

Detect Evil is pretty useless.

It Came From Beneath The Earth wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 5:51 pm
I sort of disagree here. At least when it comes to 'I'm not sure anyone much cares who is evil and who isn't any longer.'

I have on numerous occasions had any real attempt at RP shut out, and replaced with threats of 'Do as I say or die' by anyone who is good aligned. Double points if they are a paladin of some sort.

There are -some- people who are willing to actually RP and not immediately thing "This person is evil so we have to kill one another" But it's way fewer and far between than one may think. Being evil is a good enough justification to allow for exiles, PVP, and anything else you can name to the right sort of people. Even for things which aren't actually a threat to society.

Here, I hate those ‘do something or die’ threatening as well, feels very much like I am bullied... not to mention that the opposite is clearly saying they what no rp. Keep talking and they will just start to kill.

The only case I feel it is ok, the opposite was a blackguard, totally evil.