Alignment outing mechanics

[Itikar]

Drawing inspiration from the evil elves thread that mentions a similar mechanics related to Myon, I wanted to raise the issue of alignment outing mechanics, and how they can severely damage the possibilities for roleplay and many character concepts.

I will not mince words and I will frankly admit that I think these mechanics are almost invariably bad, however I think it is more pragmatic and useful to list and point out the mechanics that I, or others too if they will, deem improvable.

Two that always bothered me a lot:

- Monk Glowing Eyes: it's fine if somebody wants them, by all means, but I think they would be much better if they were toggleable, like warlock eyes are now. More in general, there are helmet models that work awfully with monk eyes vfx, so having a way to turn them off when wearing them would have also accessory benefits.

- "Drow" Crossbows and Weapons in general: their restriction is not drow but evil elves and half-elves. This means any non-evil drow cannot use them, and their alignment can be unadvertedly outed through these "drow" items. It is my understanding that the items were done this way because of mechanic limitations, but that such limitations do not exist anymore, since the new Elfblade is restricted to surface elven subraces and blocks drow. I believe modifying the drow items in the same fashion would be good, and it would be consistent with the crafting requirement of at least some of them, that can be crafted just by a drow crafter, regardless of their alignment.

- Alignment Gates: these are portals and doorways that can be passed or opened only by characters of certain alignments. While I dislike all of them and I would gladly see all of them gone for good, I must recognize that in some select and remote places their presence might make sense, prevent situations that would be better avoided and even encourage interaction. On the other hand, those that are in commonly visited places or Rp hubs such as settlements seem just bad to me.

- Detect Evil: the server has it and, well, I am glad I have never had to deal with it. At least it has a save and costs piety, so there is that. I won't pretend that I would also rather see this go than stay, but it is a legit D&d mechanic. One probably better suited to DM supervision than an actuall mechanic, but still I cannot pretend it does not have its place. I think however that it would be nice to have items that block this mechanic, even if one fails the save. In a game where I played before coming to Arelith there were alignment shielding rings, that prevented Detect Evil, and the other Detects that were there, such as Chaos, Law and Good, to reveal any positives. I don't think that having additional counters to such mechanic will impoverish the game in any way.

[garrbear758]

Totally agree. One thing I wanted to do but never got around to when I was on the team was a corruption mechanic to replace things like alignment gates and detect evil. It would have been similar to the piety meter, but go up from summoning undead / demons, using objectively evil spells or abilities like curse weapon, dark invocations, etc. Replace detect evil with detect corruption, and make it an aoe instead of targeting a single person so you can't completely narrow down who the source is with one button.

[Hinty]

Inclined to agree with most of this. Monk eyes especially, there is so much about monk I hate, the idea that they get glowy eyes is near the top of the list, any monk concept I consider I find myself carefully ensuring the build never goes above 19 Monk levels just to avoid this.

I think many weapons are too heavily restricted be it alignment or class wise. Many of the "evil only" weapons seem to have no reason for the restriction other than "well, assassins would like them" sure, but so would other people. Want to use a Katar? Well then, I hope you are either an Assassin or an NG Druid. Sure other good aligned chars could use one of the two, but the bonuses are very much druid themed. Certainly there is nothing in its design that suggests any reason why any other alignment couldn't use it, hell it sounds exactly like a druidic item, restricting it to good only just seems bizarre.
Want to play a spear specialist? Well then, You need 3 level rogue dip for UMD, Ranger levels, or CN/CE/NE alignment.
Want to use those realy cool new Pike models? Well, better hope you are Good, LN, or an elf.
Sure sometimes the UMD requirements aren't maaaasive, but why? Remove or lessen the restrictions on items and suddenly people don't have to consider a 3 level rogue dip on 99% of chars.
If you absolutely MUST restrict weapons so heavily, then for the love of god make sure there is an option for at least MOST if not all chars.


I don't have much issue with detect evil. I can probably count on one hand the number of times i've been in the vicinity of someone using DE while playing an evil char, and I am not aware of a single time that it worked on my char, certainly no one ever indicated that it had. It barely ever gets used.
I used to play on a server that had a far smaller map, one city and a couple of satellite villages, there was almost always a DM or two online and they would actively punish any paladin that knowingly quested alongside evil characters. The result of this was paladins would frequently use DE, especially when gathering a group to quest, but also while interacting in the streets. This meant that most evil characters limited their interactions with paladins as much as possible. (As they should. even if a paladin isn't strong enough to hurt you, just the fact they can finger you as evil makes them a pain in the arse.) There were, however, ways to avoid being detected, most obvious was having a Protection from Good spell active (which would just raise alarm bells anyway) rare items that could shield you from detection while worn also existed (Only ever saw one of these once. in a decade or so of playing).
The most fun way of dealing with DE however was to out think the paladin. At one point I played an evil priest, by far the easiest char to detect (detection worked further if you served an evil god or were a cleric, and more so for both) and managed to avoid detection entirely even developing "friendships" and cooperation with paladin characters. There were a number of tricks. Only join a paladins group if there was someone there who clearly looked/acted evil. If the paladin used DE and was told evil was present, they would accuse the obvious guy, chase them off then 9 times out of 10 not use DE again. If it looked like the paladin was about to use DE, find an excuse to leave for a moment (buy supplies, pop into the inn to rest etc) again, most of the time the Paladin would not think to try again when you returned. Standing behind them meant they got less information allowing you to steer the convo towards suspecting someone else, and, of course, the creme de le creme, a new paladin will always back down if a well respected and established paladin declares that they have tested you many times and utterly trust your integrity.

I don't know how much of this is possible with the way Areliths DE works, Also it was a rule of that server that a paladin had to make sure they made emotes to make it obvious they were using DE, general *runs his eyes over the group appraisingly* type stuff was enough, and DE took a few rounds to fully gather all the info, so observant chars could move away or behind if they were paying attention. I know that on Arelith the only indication I've ever had that DE was being used was a random will save out of nowhere. If it became habit for Paladins to indicate the action, and give evil players a chance to react if they are observant/fast/smart enough it might make DE become a way to make for fun interactions, rather than a fun sponge. (Oh great, some guy just clicked a button, and now he's denouncing me to everyone around because he knows I'm evil.)

[Hinty]

Totally agree. One thing I wanted to do but never got around to when I was on the team was a corruption mechanic to replace things like alignment gates and detect evil. It would have been similar to the piety meter, but go up from summoning undead / demons, using objectively evil spells or abilities like curse weapon, dark invocations, etc. Replace detect evil with detect corruption, and make it an aoe instead of targeting a single person so you can't completely narrow down who the source is with one button.

Dont even need a corruption mechanic. Alignment on NWN is a 0-100 scale. 0-30 = evil 31-69 neutral 70-100 good. Make evil acts (killing civi NPCs, summoning undead, certain writs perhaps) grant a small alignment shift, and have mechanics that interact with the scale, perhaps the Myon portal will stop you from entering if your Evil alignment has hit 5 or lower.

This, however, does kinda need a DM team that is better able to watch players and shift alignments on the fly if you want it to work really well, and with 4 servers and such large maps on each, that is not really viable.

[Shadowy Reality]

Dont even need a corruption mechanic. Alignment on NWN is a 0-100 scale. 0-30 = evil 31-69 neutral 70-100 good. Make evil acts (killing civi NPCs, summoning undead, certain writs perhaps) grant a small alignment shift, and have mechanics that interact with the scale, perhaps the Myon portal will stop you from entering if your Evil alignment has hit 5 or lower.

This, however, does kinda need a DM team that is better able to watch players and shift alignments on the fly if you want it to work really well, and with 4 servers and such large maps on each, that is not really viable.

No bueno. In the past killing/freeing slaves and captives shifted your alignment. This lead to some exploits and it would make it extremely easy to shift around. This stuff is best left to DMs to handle.

[In Sorrow We Trust]

Totally agree. One thing I wanted to do but never got around to when I was on the team was a corruption mechanic to replace things like alignment gates and detect evil. It would have been similar to the piety meter, but go up from summoning undead / demons, using objectively evil spells or abilities like curse weapon, dark invocations, etc. Replace detect evil with detect corruption, and make it an aoe instead of targeting a single person so you can't completely narrow down who the source is with one button.

i'm stealing this idea garrbear

[MissEvelyn]

I love the idea of a corruption mechanic!

On a separate note, regarding alignment, I want to shift the focus away from mechanics for a second and to us as players.

While Detect Evil does exist, currently only Paladin players can cast it. But when you have someone randomly detecting evil on everyone they pass by, that's not a bad mechanic, that's a bad player decision, if not entirely meta. A paladin wouldn't concern themselves with scanning to see if every commoner and traveler they pass by is evil, unless they have a really good reason to do so. And I'm sorry, but simply wearing dark garbs, having glowing eyes (a magical effect in a heavily magical world), or even wearing the colors or symbols of a Fury - a necessary, accepted evil deity on Faerûn, worshipped by most good folk - all don't warrant you trying to detect evil on them.

And when you do spot an evil person, you as a lawful good paladin are still very much beholden to the law. You can't just slaughter them - that would be both chaotic and evil, as there is no evidence of them doing evil deeds. You could shout it from the rooftops that they're evil, but where is your evidence? "I can detect it!" you say, but surely your paladin is wise enough to know that it's not very Lawful to accuse an individual of evildoing when you don't know for sure if they have done any such deed.

An alignment is not the same as outcast status. Being an outcast automatically outs you. The evil or infamous deed has already been committed, while an innocent but evil person can yet be persuaded away from whatever darkness lurks in their hearts. And as a paladin you want goodly races to be redeemed from evil. While genocide is an acceptable and preferred way to deal with kobolds and goblins, you can't just murder a person because you detected evil, and I sincerely hope the DMs would take your paladin-hood away if you acted in such a manner.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

Can the smugglers get looked at too? Right now I think they only react to evil alignment. I've heard there's a bluff check, could that be expanded to perform as well?

Edit: Neutral clerics also don't get any bonus languages, unlike good or evil clerics. Could neutral clerics get a bonus language?

[Watchful Glare]

Totally agree. One thing I wanted to do but never got around to when I was on the team was a corruption mechanic to replace things like alignment gates and detect evil. It would have been similar to the piety meter, but go up from summoning undead / demons, using objectively evil spells or abilities like curse weapon, dark invocations, etc. Replace detect evil with detect corruption, and make it an aoe instead of targeting a single person so you can't completely narrow down who the source is with one button.

This would have been brilliant

[Itikar]

Can the smugglers get looked at too? Right now I think they only react to evil alignment. I've heard there's a bluff check, could that be expanded to perform as well?

Edit: Neutral clerics also don't get any bonus languages, unlike good or evil clerics. Could neutral clerics get a bonus language?

Good catches.

Especially the cleric bonus language one, which outed a few CN Lolthite priestesses in the past.

There is already the award that can grant a bonus language, but perhaps clerics could just benefit from a bonus language mechanic similar to Loremaster. So, for instance, a halfling cleric of Erevan could pick up Elven as bonus language, regardless of alignment. Or a human or any other race cleric of Bahamut/Tiamat could instead have Draconic. Or again the aforementioned neutral cleric of Lolth could pick up Abyssal, which would still make very much sense for them.

It would also muddle the waters of alignment further, which would not be bad at all.

[The GrumpyCat]

Tl;dr: I think you're right and these aer good suggestions, but I don't think the issue is as urgent as you fear.

The long of it:

Monks: Absolutly agree. Probably the most urgent of all of these. I'd personally like the glowy eye to be togglable though, rather than removed entirely. But I can see an argument for 'removed entirely' too.

Drow Crossbows/weapons: Not quite sure how this is a thing? How does this give away alignment in a meta sense? That said - absolutly not against changing these to Drow only. I can look into this. If you could give me the names of the items in question that'd help.

Alignement Gates: I can only think of one that's an issue - the one that's kicked this thread up. I absolutly have no problems with the idea of removing it mark you, but also I don't think that it's as dire as you think? There are at least three ways around it that I know of, off the top of my head, and I havn't seen or heard any elves being 'outed' by it of late so I don't think it's a huge issue? (Please! Guys! If you have seen this happen recently do let me know! I'm very open to the possiblity it's happened and I just havn't heard about it! If it is happening, I'd honestly like to know!)

Detect Evil: Similar to Alignment gates. I feel that there's enough malais with this that it's not really used much? Certainly when I've played Paladins its pretty much never offered anything interesting. I would absolutly be fine with it's removal mark you, but I don't think it's urgent? Guys what's your experience? Do Paladins end up outing a lot of Evil PCs?

Smugglers: I must admit- I feel a different mechanic beyond 'are you evil' should be used. TBH 'are you chaotic' might make more sense or 'Are you chaotic or have a pirate writ.' Besides, smuggling - whilst often rather shady, isn't always 'evil.' in my opinion. It mostly depends on what and why you're doing it.

Cleric Languages: Yeah, it is a bit unfair to neutral clerics. Not sure what we'd give them though? But I'd be all for them getting something else.

And when you do spot an evil person, you as a lawful good paladin are still very much beholden to the law. You can't just slaughter them - that would be both chaotic and evil, as there is no evidence of them doing evil deeds. You could shout it from the rooftops that they're evil, but where is your evidence? "I can detect it!" you say, but surely your paladin is wise enough to know that it's not very Lawful to accuse an individual of evildoing when you don't know for sure if they have done any such deed.

The problem isn't the paladins per se, as much as the people who get the information from the Paladin. So even if your Paladin is r elitivly prudent, and only uses it judiciously and never for pvp, they just need to mention it someone who isn't like that and is more of the: 'Evil Means they are of Team Red so now we kill/pairiah them over and over and over and over and over and over until they go into Andunor and we win yay!'

I mean that already happens in Cordor with certain faiths (Banite, Shar, Cyric). Don't get me wrong of course, this makes a certain amount of sense - but so does non-gratering all folk who are evil. After all they are 'evil'

The sad fact is that for some mechanics, we have to allow for the dumbest, most malignant, most unfriendly player around, and when it comes to revealing mechanics, especially ones that would effect a very wide vareity of pcs, that's the case with DE.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

Cleric Languages: Yeah, it is a bit unfair to neutral clerics. Not sure what we'd give them though? But I'd be all for them getting something else.

I like the idea for using the loremaster language picking system, except restrict the languages to celestial, infernal, and abyssal.

[The GrumpyCat]

Cleric Languages: Yeah, it is a bit unfair to neutral clerics. Not sure what we'd give them though? But I'd be all for them getting something else.

I like the idea for using the loremaster language picking system, except restrict the languages to celestial, infernal, and abyssal.

Not sure how easy that would be ot code, I think the argument against it would mainly be that it'd further bloat the character creation system - but speaking personally it makes sense. Though I think I'd add Sylvian to that list.

[Kalopsia]

I've been trying to limit non-physical damage on weapons for exactly that reason. It's not really great to use a weapon to poke someone and conclude "my weapon has dealt positive damage, you must be evil."

[Security_Blanket]

Cleric Languages: Yeah, it is a bit unfair to neutral clerics. Not sure what we'd give them though? But I'd be all for them getting something else.

I like the idea for using the loremaster language picking system, except restrict the languages to celestial, infernal, and abyssal.

Not sure how easy that would be ot code, I think the argument against it would mainly be that it'd further bloat the character creation system - but speaking personally it makes sense. Though I think I'd add Sylvian to that list.

It'd be nice to have that option for neutral evil Blackguards too, to choose between Infernal or Abyssal, and not be forced to learn Abyssal.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

Not sure how easy that would be ot code, I think the argument against it would mainly be that it'd further bloat the character creation system - but speaking personally it makes sense. Though I think I'd add Sylvian to that list.

Sylvan is a great idea. Maybe re-do cleric languages entirely so all clerics can pick their language, so good or evil clerics of fey/unseelie deities could speak Sylvan.

If it's redone and the concern is too much bloat on character creation, maybe have it be a level 6 thing clerics get, like how rangers get animal language at level 6 or rogues get thieves cant at level 7.

The loremaster language system is also something you can entirely ignore, it's not a pop-up that you take on levelup. A message appears in the combat log every time a loremaster with a language available logs in saying to type -bonus_language to select it. So if people are in the middle of a dungeon when they level, they can entirely ignore picking a language until later.

[Itikar]

Tl;dr: I think you're right and these aer good suggestions, but I don't think the issue is as urgent as you fear.

Thank you for the attention to this matter. I care to stress that I do not think anything of this is particularly urgent, and in fact I lived with it for a few RL years. It is just that the thread was the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back. Definitely I can live with all of these for many more months.

Monks: Absolutly agree. Probably the most urgent of all of these. I'd personally like the glowy eye to be togglable though, rather than removed entirely. But I can see an argument for 'removed entirely' too.

Toggleable is fine. No need to remove the feature for those who like it. Just a switch like warlock would be the best IMHO. And yes, I agree that it is the most urgent.

Drow Crossbows/weapons: Not quite sure how this is a thing? How does this give away alignment in a meta sense? That said - absolutly not against changing these to Drow only. I can look into this. If you could give me the names of the items in question that'd help.

The most glaring offender is: Sithyrr'tyne (Hand Spinneret)
This crossbow is relatively common and passed around and gifted quite often. It's also second only to the Ashwood Crossbow, and even then only for rogues. When the receiver of the gift begins to find excuses for not using it, it is pretty clear which is the reason, i.e. their drow is not evil. Just to give the idea of how widespread the thing is this crossbow was at one point practically the unofficial ordnance crossbow of the Killian even.

Vharrke'brei (Wardbreaker) also has the same restrictions but it is not used as much. Still, no point for keeping the old restriction, since it is a drow weapon.

Vlos'Khaliiz Bolt also is pretty strange for being evil elves only. Frankly I would remove the restriction from these altogether, letting anybody use them.

Illithid Tentacle Whip also has the same restriction, but seems strange to be restricted to elves. I think this one could legit keep the evil restriction, after all it is nowhere as common as any of the above ones, but it could be extended also to non-elven races. It is not that drow or elves are any more related to illithid than dwarves or gnomes, after all.

These are the main ones I can think of.

Alignement Gates: I can only think of one that's an issue - the one that's kicked this thread up. I absolutly have no problems with the idea of removing it mark you, but also I don't think that it's as dire as you think? There are at least three ways around it that I know of, off the top of my head, and I havn't seen or heard any elves being 'outed' by it of late so I don't think it's a huge issue? (Please! Guys! If you have seen this happen recently do let me know! I'm very open to the possiblity it's happened and I just havn't heard about it! If it is happening, I'd honestly like to know!)

I have never had direct experience with that one. But certainly knowing such a thing exists I would think twice before playing a perfectly elven character concept such as an Eldreth Veluuthra. I am really afraid such a thing would get in the way. The bypass mechanics are fine for outsiders, such as drow, humans, etc. but they are probably out of place for elves. I have no dog in this particular fight, though, in the end, one can just avoid Myon, and a place with an alignment door like that is one worth avoiding in my book. Still, I believe it was pretty telling how in that thread most evil elves concept were mentioned in the context of the Underdark, where even genuinely evil elves should truly think twice before going.

Other alignment gates I met were in places where they were not particularly bad. The only other one that was marginally intrusive was the Bhaalspire dungeon in Sencliff, which inside did not really have anything that currently justified an alignment check. It seemed just a basic PvE dungeon unless I missed something. In any case, it's easy to avoid it. It seemed just gratuitous.

Detect Evil: Similar to Alignment gates. I feel that there's enough malais with this that it's not really used much? Certainly when I've played Paladins its pretty much never offered anything interesting. I would absolutly be fine with it's removal mark you, but I don't think it's urgent? Guys what's your experience? Do Paladins end up outing a lot of Evil PCs?

I mentioned it mostly for the benefit of inventory, and for the sake of mentioning alignment shielding rings. That said, this thread reminded me of episodes in which paladins used that mechanic upon some otherwise very evil looking monster PCs. And when they found some of them non-evil that changed their behavior a bit. Well, maybe, that is not a good side-effect of the mechanic, i.e. using it to find out non-evil monsters. But then again, I think of all of the offenders it is truly the least serious.

Smugglers: I must admit- I feel a different mechanic beyond 'are you evil' should be used. TBH 'are you chaotic' might make more sense or 'Are you chaotic or have a pirate writ.' Besides, smuggling - whilst often rather shady, isn't always 'evil.' in my opinion. It mostly depends on what and why you're doing it.

Robin Hood would approve.

Cleric Languages: Yeah, it is a bit unfair to neutral clerics. Not sure what we'd give them though? But I'd be all for them getting something else.

I think that a liturgical bonus language at around level 5 or 7 could be a nice for all clerics. Unfortunately we do not have on the menu some of the languages which would fit this bill, namely Aquan, Auran, Ignan and Terran, but there are a good number of the others. It makes sense that some clerics would pick another language instead of the planar ones too, like the mentions I made above, i.e. cleric of Tiamat choosing Draconic instead, or an LE priestess of Lolth/Freth might still want Abyssal to better dissimulate, etc.

[Kenji]

Make all mechanics designs as easily meta’d as possible. Screenshot and publicly shame those who’d say something along the lines of “my weapon deals magical damage upon those who are evil, therefore you must be evil” in-character

[Party in the forest at midnight]

Make all mechanics designs as easily meta’d as possible. Screenshot and publicly shame those who’d say something along the lines of “my weapon deals magical damage upon those who are evil, therefore you must be evil” in-character

Hmm, pretty interesting fighting technique you're using.

[The GrumpyCat]

One other possible alignment outing mechanic is smite evil (or good). Paladins can just punch anyone they susspect in the face and see how much it hurts.

...

(Note. Please don't do this. It's really cheesy and bad. I mostly put it up here for comedy value)

Itikar - darnit I thought you meant crafting mechanics! I can't really help with existing items in the toolset, though if a passing contributor sees this, has the energy to, and can make such items 'drow' only rather than 'evil' only, then I think it's probably a good call?

[Itikar]

One other possible alignment outing mechanic is smite evil (or good). Paladins can just punch anyone they susspect in the face and see how much it hurts.

...

(Note. Please don't do this. It's really cheesy and bad. I mostly put it up here for comedy value)

Itikar - darnit I thought you meant crafting mechanics! I can't really help with existing items in the toolset, though if a passing contributor sees this, has the energy to, and can make such items 'drow' only rather than 'evil' only, then I think it's probably a good call?

Yeah, definitely would be a good idea. Right now they are restricted to evil elves and half-elves (even though weirdly enough there are no playable drow half-elves).

I did not list Smite Evil because I found out the other day it apparently has been replaced with Divine Smite, which is a change worth celebrating in a thread like this!

[God_In_Action]

Corruption sounds great, but let's think about it to be sure a second.

Is the word 'corruption' just a different way of saying 'evil' or would it at least be treated that way IC? If the only action which increase corruption are those which are socially unacceptable in the setting, then detecting corruption is still just another name for detecting evil. Both detect what the good guys don't like

[Xerah]

Plenty of evil is just being selfish. That's very different than summoning undead.

[Ithalan]

The sad fact is that for some mechanics, we have to allow for the dumbest, most malignant, most unfriendly player around, and when it comes to revealing mechanics, especially ones that would effect a very wide vareity of pcs, that's the case with DE.

Addressing this specifically with regard to Detect Evil; Why? What does the ability actually offer that is beneficial to roleplay interactions on the server and worth the potential for abuse? I started a paladin character recently, and I can't think of a single scenario to use it in where it wouldn't just cut off a more interesting avenue of roleplay for either me, the target or most likely both of us.

I get that it was a thing in pnp D&D because Smite Evil was a precious resource you didn't want to waste against something that isn't evil. But on Arelith Divine Smite is just a 3 minute cooldown at most that still has minor benefits even when used against someone of your own alignment. Even if you use it to relatively little effect, it's going to be available again by the time you find something likely to have a different alignment than the previous target.

[MissEvelyn]

Detect Evil went from being an actual gamble to take in the mid-2000s, to now losing a trivial amount of experience points, something you can regain in literally one tick now in 2022.

Also, Detect Evil is one of those mechanics that are given to Paladins at level 1, but really it should be something only non-dipping Paladins have access to. Perhaps raise that to level 10?

By using the -detectevil command, a paladin can detect the presence of evil characters near by. However, this comes with a cost to the deity's power and presence, as well as the loss of 100xp per use.

When it was added to Arelith, 100 XP was a LOT. The only way you got any ticking experience points was to get your RPR raised from 0 (where everyone started), OR to have the Mark of Destiny. Monster kills didn't award anywhere near the amount they do today, and writs obviously didn't exist then.

So, to adjust it for inflation, I suggest we raise the cost of Detect Evil to 2000 XP to make it a cost-worthy thing to do. Likewise, Power and Presence are ancient mechanics that were replaced with the simpler Piety system. Unlike Piety, Power and Presence were a pain to raise (one of them requiring altar donations to actually raise). So, again, to make the Paladin feel the sting of their decision to detect evil, let it cost 50% piety to use. The piety cost could be reduced by a percent for each Paladin level after 10, i.e. 30% at level 30.


I'm brainstorming this as an active Paladin player, by the way, before you accuse me of not having any skin in the game.