Arelith

The GrumpyCat wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 1:29 pm There is also of course the option for the hybrid system, as we do with Good Underdarkers. Where some races are locked to people of a high RPR OR with an application. I think if we do decice to go this way with any grater award race, this might be how we do it. But we'll see. This is something to monitor and I can say that at least with some races (looking at you Kenku) we'll be watching the rp style VERY carefully going forward.

Rather than kenku, I was thinking firbolgs, avariel, and fey'ri. There's a lot of firbolgs who seem to be just "tall human" rather than a firbolg. And some avariel play it as "elf aasimar" instead of an avariel. Fey'ri will probably run into the same problem of people playing it as "elf tiefling."

Everyone expects kenku to be a problem because of what people have done with gnolls and kobolds, but I think fey'ri is going to be the bigger issue where characters will show off their wings and not understand why the elven community reviles them. Or maybe they'll use it as a way to finally be able to play a hot elf gf in the Hub.


Very good post by the way. Now that awards are time gated, that should help with the problem of things being too common too. I really like the language awards, out of all of them they appeal to me the most. I hope there will be more awards in the future that offer things to characters other than special races.

Party in the forest at midnight wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 2:54 pm

The GrumpyCat wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 1:29 pm There is also of course the option for the hybrid system, as we do with Good Underdarkers. Where some races are locked to people of a high RPR OR with an application. I think if we do decice to go this way with any grater award race, this might be how we do it. But we'll see. This is something to monitor and I can say that at least with some races (looking at you Kenku) we'll be watching the rp style VERY carefully going forward.

Rather than kenku, I was thinking firbolgs, avariel, and fey'ri. There's a lot of firbolgs who seem to be just "tall human" rather than a firbolg. And some avariel play it as "elf aasimar" instead of an avariel. Fey'ri will probably run into the same problem of people playing it as "elf tiefling."

Everyone expects kenku to be a problem because of what people have done with gnolls and kobolds, but I think fey'ri is going to be the bigger issue where characters will show off their wings and not understand why the elven community reviles them. Or maybe they'll use it as a way to finally be able to play a hot elf gf in the Hub.


Very good post by the way. Now that awards are time gated, that should help with the problem of things being too common too. I really like the language awards, out of all of them they appeal to me the most. I hope there will be more awards in the future that offer things to characters other than special races.

Your point is well taken, and definatly something to discuss. We'll see how things go.

Your last point is something I want to touch on because this is absolutly something I want to work on. I'd love to make a lot more awards - especially normal and below awards- that are not race gated. It's just getting around to doing it, and balencing it so that it isn't just a massive power hike or something. Maybe in the next six months?

On a side note, Thank You for all these awesome updates to awards Grumpy! I know such things take time and effort to do.

First of all thanks for the answers.

And yeah I'm aware X races should be available on surface because lore is a reasonable argument. But honestly I think having animal people on surface cities is just too much of a change for what server has been in the past years.

Perhaps I'm just being nostalgic, and dramatic. But I think surface settlements would be more aesthetic not only in visual but also in a narrative way if they were more traditional fantasy. (LoTRish)

I do agree with the general sentiment that there are too many weirdo race characters romping through the server. Elves, dwarves, etc. are fine but I'm getting particularly tired of wings and planetouched.

Now mind you my main enemy is a pixie, and I love the character. So I'm not saying that these characters are all bad, they can definitely exotify and liven up the world. But for me the sheer number of them proliferating on the continent does detract from the classic look and feel of Arelith.

I can't help but feel like people are heavily exaggerating or I am just not lucky enough to see all those winged special characters. With that said you should not start hiding more races behind a RPR / Application gate because that will just lead to resentment and claims of favoritism.

Not only that but many of those Races need a Greater/Major award which is now going to be gatekeep-y enough as it is.

Itikar wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 1:42 pm I would not remove the option for tieflings to have tail or horns. If somebody is bothered by horns and tails in a setting that has tieflings as a core race in the edition the server is based upon, maybe they should simply choose a different setting or a different edition to play in.

Adding some prejudices against tieflings with such features might have sense on the other hand, in some areas, as that has some basis at least.

+1
I agree.

While PCs (adventurers) are a rare breed, especially on Arelith, the commoners of the Surface world would more likely than not react with horror or hatred towards tieflings. Towards, mind you, those who are spawns of devils, demons, and their fiendish ilk. In other words, evil evil evil. The commoners don't have the same level of disregard for common sense OR philosophical awareness that the typical player character has.

I would LOVE to see that implemented in-game. Currently as it stands, NPCs are more bigoted against Svirfneblin than they are against Tieflings. That seems a little odd and inconsistent.

This just goes to show you can’t please everyone.

On one hand we have players annoyed at people who play exotic races and make a “big deal” about their race and shove it in your face and bring it up in conversation.

On the other hand you have players annoyed at people who play an exotic race and just act like a regular human with wings/horns/9ft tall.

Humans, humans everywhere

I say instead nerf Quick to Master

TurningLeaf wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 1:17 am Humans, humans everywhere

I say instead nerf Quick to Master

Didn't we try that?

If you want people not RPing their race, that's the sure fire way to do it.

The way Arelith is set up all races have to act more or less human a lot of the time. You need to visit town to do things (get writs, bank, shop, craft, most of all find other players) and basically you need an interested audience to get into something like your tiefling or firbolg lore, which isn't something you can always count on having. I just feel like a lot of this "I don't see people play their exotic race" talk is because putting that lore on display is pretty situational. In a way there's a problem with the setting in that we have these exotic races introduced but they're not supported very well as there's no alignment neutral surface outcast area to base a character who doesn't belong in the cities out of.

Also goes for uncivilized characters like wild dwarves or elves, as there's not really a good way to play something that never steps into highly populated areas.

Eyeliner wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 4:38 am The way Arelith is set up all races have to act more or less human a lot of the time. You need to visit town to do things (get writs, bank, shop, craft, most of all find other players) and basically you need an interested audience to get into something like your tiefling or firbolg lore, which isn't something you can always count on having. I just feel like a lot of this "I don't see people play their exotic race" talk is because putting that lore on display is pretty situational. In a way there's a problem with the setting in that we have these exotic races introduced but they're not supported very well as there's no alignment neutral surface outcast area to base a character who doesn't belong in the cities out of.

Also goes for uncivilized characters like wild dwarves or elves, as there's not really a good way to play something that never steps into highly populated areas.

That actually bothered my Druid

I wanted her to love nature a bit more and avoid cities, but when I found the grove, there’s not enough services offered. Unless I want to give up on writs I cannot have her stay away from cities.

I’d love the see one such place, and fingers crossed for a monster village. Just do not have everything evil dumped to UD while the hub is a neutral place and people are supposed to be civilised

xf1313 wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 5:42 am

Eyeliner wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 4:38 am The way Arelith is set up all races have to act more or less human a lot of the time. You need to visit town to do things (get writs, bank, shop, craft, most of all find other players) and basically you need an interested audience to get into something like your tiefling or firbolg lore, which isn't something you can always count on having. I just feel like a lot of this "I don't see people play their exotic race" talk is because putting that lore on display is pretty situational. In a way there's a problem with the setting in that we have these exotic races introduced but they're not supported very well as there's no alignment neutral surface outcast area to base a character who doesn't belong in the cities out of.

Also goes for uncivilized characters like wild dwarves or elves, as there's not really a good way to play something that never steps into highly populated areas.

That actually bothered my Druid

I wanted her to love nature a bit more and avoid cities, but when I found the grove, there’s not enough services offered. Unless I want to give up on writs I cannot have her stay away from cities.

I’d love the see one such place, and fingers crossed for a monster village. Just do not have everything evil dumped to UD while the hub is a neutral place and people are supposed to be civilised

Honestly I'd love it if there was a "get x% XP bonus per kill but you can never take a writ"* option for characters that want to live out in the wilderness and not engage with being murderers-for-hire that is the writ business.

I've made survivalist characters pre-writs with most interactions with others starting out with bartering and leading into more RP as my PC refused to enter cities. Probably my most well received characters RP-wise as I got a lot of positive tells from the interactions even when things occasionally went antagonistic as it helped make the "wilderness feel more alive" as one player put it. In the current leveling setup combined with my limited playtime it would be more annoying than fun.

*Note I really like writs on 90% of my characters and I appreciate all the work that has gone into them. Also this is probably a super small minority of players interested in this so not saying it is worth dev time.

xanrael wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 6:09 am

xf1313 wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 5:42 am

Eyeliner wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 4:38 am The way Arelith is set up all races have to act more or less human a lot of the time. You need to visit town to do things (get writs, bank, shop, craft, most of all find other players) and basically you need an interested audience to get into something like your tiefling or firbolg lore, which isn't something you can always count on having. I just feel like a lot of this "I don't see people play their exotic race" talk is because putting that lore on display is pretty situational. In a way there's a problem with the setting in that we have these exotic races introduced but they're not supported very well as there's no alignment neutral surface outcast area to base a character who doesn't belong in the cities out of.

Also goes for uncivilized characters like wild dwarves or elves, as there's not really a good way to play something that never steps into highly populated areas.

That actually bothered my Druid

I wanted her to love nature a bit more and avoid cities, but when I found the grove, there’s not enough services offered. Unless I want to give up on writs I cannot have her stay away from cities.

I’d love the see one such place, and fingers crossed for a monster village. Just do not have everything evil dumped to UD while the hub is a neutral place and people are supposed to be civilised

Honestly I'd love it if there was a "get x% XP bonus per kill but you can never take a writ"* option for characters that want to live out in the wilderness and not engage with being murderers-for-hire that is the writ business.

I've made survivalist characters pre-writs with most interactions with others starting out with bartering and leading into more RP as my PC refused to enter cities. Probably my most well received characters RP-wise as I got a lot of positive tells from the interactions even when things occasionally went antagonistic as it helped make the "wilderness feel more alive" as one player put it. In the current leveling setup combined with my limited playtime it would be more annoying than fun.

*Note I really like writs on 90% of my characters and I appreciate all the work that has gone into them. Also this is probably a super small minority of players interested in this so not saying it is worth dev time.

This. One thousand times this.
I would love such a thing. I had a lot of fun doing similar things pre-writs and haven't even considered why/how that has gone away.
That would be a very fun alternative to 'themepark mmo' style quests, for me.

Eyeliner wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 4:38 am The way Arelith is set up all races have to act more or less human a lot of the time. You need to visit town to do things (get writs, bank, shop, craft, most of all find other players) and basically you need an interested audience to get into something like your tiefling or firbolg lore, which isn't something you can always count on having. I just feel like a lot of this "I don't see people play their exotic race" talk is because putting that lore on display is pretty situational. In a way there's a problem with the setting in that we have these exotic races introduced but they're not supported very well as there's no alignment neutral surface outcast area to base a character who doesn't belong in the cities out of.

Also goes for uncivilized characters like wild dwarves or elves, as there's not really a good way to play something that never steps into highly populated areas.

That's a pretty good point and why I feel most arguments against playing these races "correctly" just comes off as gatekeeping where people seem to just not want these races to exist to begin with because the game systems don't cater to their very draconian guidelines. It's entirely self defeating and kind of facetious. It also echoes my thoughts that there's no true neutral surface area.

One of the things that attracted me to this server was the moto "embracing the mundane," I can't find it anywhere now that I look for it. There is nothing mundane about these races or the overall direction of the server, like events, bigger doesn't mean better. Embrace the mundane? More like "embrace the over-the-top fantasy." It's not only that some of these players don't play their unique race according to their race, it's that they are suppose to be rare. If 20% of the players in Cordor are now giant-kin, don't you think that will throw off the vibe of the server? More power, more fantasy! +4 Weapons for everybody! Arelith is now Amia, whatever caused the split way back when, you're recreating Amia on Arelith.

The number of giantkin is likely inflated due to the imminent release of the race. Whoever had a suitable award and wanted to play one of those races has made one now. It's unlikely that they will remain so numerous going forward, even more so with the new award system. Moreover they are concentrated in starting areas because these characters are undestandably low level and cannot spread out further or settle in other roleplay hubs.

To assess the actual numbers and impact on the server population we really need to wait a bit more, and perhaps also the nerfs to them.

Atlus wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 11:27 amThat's a pretty good point and why I feel most arguments against playing these races "correctly" just comes off as gatekeeping where people seem to just not want these races to exist to begin with because the game systems don't cater to their very draconian guidelines. It's entirely self defeating and kind of facetious. It also echoes my thoughts that there's no true neutral surface area.

Maybe an idea could be to make some freak-free roleplay hubs for such players somewhere on the server, where they can meet with like-minded individuals and have freak-free interactions, without being bothered by dragon disciples, half-giants, non-familiar fey, non-familiar imp, tiefling, genasi, kenku, etc. I am not particularly convinced it will be much else than a mostly deserted spot, but it is not something that cannot have a place, and if it caters to the interest of a part of the playerbase, then why not. It is probably more practical to contain the freak-intolerent mundanes in one spot like that instead than shoving the "freaks" into the Underdark or somewhere else.

Itikar wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 1:41 pm Maybe an idea could be to make some freak-free roleplay hubs for such players somewhere on the server, where they can meet with like-minded individuals and have freak-free interactions, without being bothered by dragon disciples, half-giants, non-familiar fey, non-familiar imp, tiefling, genasi, kenku, etc. I am not particularly convinced it will be much else than a mostly deserted spot, but it is not something that cannot have a place, and if it caters to the interest of a part of the playerbase, then why not. It is probably more practical to contain the freak-intolerent mundanes in one spot like that instead than shoving the "freaks" into the Underdark or somewhere else.

See this makes me wonder why major cities never had slums/lower class zones where the more difficult to accept races end up congregating. Every city has to be perfectly socially sterile, even Guldorand which was supposed to be a neutral grounds ultimately lacks this aspect of appeal.

We really do not need to shove any more races into the UD, as in there is already way more "surface" races that already are put there, despite having more sense being on the surface. There's simply no other place to put them, as there's an outright refusal to have any sort of monstrous hub on the surface. The ones you're suggesting have no reason to also be shoved down there and I'm really not keen to keep having that happen. If their RP supports it and they're deserving of being an outcast? Sure. Forcing them down there despite the race not making sense to be FORCED into it? Absolutely not.

I really don't understand the issues with there being non-standard fantasy races in a setting.

We're in the Forgotten Realms, not Gondor.

These races exist, the setting already is significantly higher fantasy than LOTR. Demanding everyone should be forced to play at the same much lower fantasy setting that you personally enjoy seems selfish to me.

There's always a surge of populations for new races when they are new.. people whom had the awards sitting around gathering dust decide to try out the new thing. It's the new thing phenomenon. Furbolgs were a good example, then their population drastically fell off.

I feel like people are over reacting to other people basically getting to try out new things. We all know that some people RP poorly, that's not a revelation nor something people should be surprised about, some people are just after the shiny new thing, however I am not one of those types that are of the opinion that because some people screw stuff up, everyone should have to suffer the consequences.

Kalthariam wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 5:11 pm I really don't understand the issues with there being non-standard fantasy races in a setting.

We're in the Forgotten Realms, not Gondor.

I'm trying to hold my tongue as I can get really mean and belittling about it but people seem to have a REALLY warped idea of what Forgotten Realms and sub-sequentially Arelith entails as a setting, which seems to almost entirely spurn from a homebrew perspective and not really what the source material engages in... This includes the increased regularity of exotic races in adventurer settings, especially in a little island in the middle of nowhere that frankly invites the congregation.

Not to mention the reward changes seem to have invited this toxic hostility that everyone should be as inconvenienced as much as possible for wanting to play those races.

...WHY HAVE THEM AT THAT POINT?!

Atlus wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 5:29 pm
Not to mention the reward changes seem to have invited this toxic hostility that everyone should be as inconvenienced as much as possible for wanting to play those races.

...WHY HAVE THEM AT THAT POINT?!

Because a lot of those inconveniences come with the territory. Drow, gnolls, etc are treated as monsters on the surface and that makes sense for the setting. There is mutual hatred between elves and fey'ri, so there is bound to be some difficulties there as well. There are a few races (notably, dwarves) with a racial enmity with giants. This is all just a part of setting immersion.

And that's okay. These things should be expected, even welcomed. If I were playing a fey'ri I would be very disappointed if there were no elves that roleplayed the rivalry that exists there. I would be disappointed if I had an easy time at being accepted if it were "out" as a fey'ri. That isn't to say that anyone should be griefed, and if you are playing a new race and feel that something you're undergoing is against the rules you should report it.

Why have them? Presumably because you're interested in playing a concept involving one of these unusual races, including all the trials that may come with them.

stoneheart- wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 5:41 pm Because a lot of those inconveniences come with the territory. Drow, gnolls, etc are treated as monsters on the surface and that makes sense for the setting. There is mutual hatred between elves and fey'ri, so there is bound to be some difficulties there as well. There are a few races (notably, dwarves) with a racial enmity with giants. This is all just a part of setting immersion.

Okay but I'm drawing the line at inventing inconveniences that don't make sense, I guess I should have clarified.

Kenku aren't another race to throw in the UD gutter.

I'm withholding judgement right now until I see what the new point-buy reward system will be.

I don't personally read any hostility in the system, just an artificial lotto system that was attempting to keep the more exotic races rarer than common, which is a fine rout to go, but you add in a few hundred people constantly rolling the dice and that 1/20 chance is going to show up more and more. Thus leading to population increases.

I simply just do not understand peopel seeming to be strict that only "Tolkein-esque" races should be playable, is my biggest issue.

Sure, plenty of people make quite wonderful Humans, Elves, Dwarves, and Halflings, but there's a reason I don't play AD&D anymore. You see the same thing 100 times and it gets dull repetitive, and even the most inventive people might surprise you once in a while, most people don't rise up to that level.

It seems that others have already pointed out that Arelith is not in fact a low fantasy setting, thus I still stand by my idea that this is the Forgotten Realms, where aspects of the outer planes, strange beasts and the conflict between heaven and hell all touch the land in some way, in a far more tangible way. I know the LOTR series has similar things, but they were not as prevalent.

Arelith is also an island where people don't stay dead, constant time anomalies exist on the island and we have leylines that link directly to the plane of shadow, hell itself and other strange places.

The island itself is an enigma, and to try to say "Why are so many weird races showing up on this remote island" when people can literally sail about the entire ocean now, or go visit hell for a shopping trip from the island? It just feels like very poor reasoning in my eyes.

Arelith in the setting is an odd place, where you should expect weird things.. there's a bloody open gate to the hells/abyss in Benwick right now who knows what the magical hell energies effecting the surroundings can do to the island. There's concealed shadowdoors all over for those whom know how to use them and have been for years, I'm sure that sort of magic has effects on the surroundings.

Very old very powerful creatures have come and died on the island having done strange things to the land as well.

That's not even counting the craziness of the wild magical energies deep under the island in the underdark that could easily bleed upwards.

There's so many ways in the game already that could lead to numerous examples of odd races showing up, it's really not that surprising nor unrational.