Potion of Attunement: A bit too good

[perseid]

Except if you end up in the Shadovar.

This seems more like an example of the problem with plot armor zones.

Oh no argument there. I'm not a fan of the Shadovar changes at all. In between attunement potions and pickpocketing, the real issue here is the Shadovar guards. I like the idea of the counter to an attunement potion being an attunement potion. Give attunement potions the same cooldown as using a lens so people can't instantly lens after using one. I think this'd fix more issues than rewriting attunement potions entirely.

Tbh I think the plot armor is the main problem even still. Or do you mean the rationale of not being able to fight because of the guards? There's still Dis which no attunement potion will take you to directly to my knowledge if people need a plot armor zone to rp in because they're getting killbashed everywhere else as I see it. The npcs in the Shadovar themselves aren't the biggest issue mechanically, I've escaped the Shadovar alive when a misclick saw the guards after me and in the past people have still ganked there. It wasn't until the plot armor that the Shadovar became actually peaceful.

[Kalthariam]

I don't really understand what you mean about the OOC messages bit. Could you elaborate there?

This was in response to people saying people were chugging them in response to ooc messages like 'Your disguise has been broken." or something like that, as it was brought up earlier in the thread.

If people are doing that and breaking rules by using ooc notifications as a signal to suddenly bail, then that is something that player should be punished for, not everyone because a few people are abusing OOC mechanics for IC gains.

[Malloney]

Honestly, the potions are just fine. Maybe give them an effect to show it's happening or disable their use with -ward_teleport could be a good step towards change. However, I can't help but feel like this suggestion isn't made in the best of faith? The original point reads like "This is how most people escape me and I want to win more often so change this item so I can do so more often." Having tricks up your sleeve should never be stifled. People should be able to escape. There are means in the game to find people if you really want to pursue them. There are means to be proactive and remember them for another day as well.


If we're talking counterplay, there's nothing stopping someone from timestopping and lensing. Or, if the area is warded, timestopping and going through a transition, lensing and spamming 1 to teleport as soon as the menu pops up either. The effect is the same at the end of the day.

If people are using them at OOC notifications, that's one thing that can and should be punished.

If they're using it to escape PVP, drink your own and hope you end up where they do.

[Aradin]

Another idea to throw into the mix: if devs wants to reduce the impact of attunement potions being used to cheesily escape PVP, you could just make fewer areas link to the Shadovar Trade Post. I'm confident that 99% of people drinking attunement potions to escape combat do it because they know they're going to a place where they can't be PVP'd. If an aggressor could drink their own attunement potion and continue the fight in a new plane, that could be a little more engaging of a chase.

[msheeler]

My only thought to this is that some VFX or notification should probably be added that way you can distinguish between someone who drank a potion of attunement and someone who simply logged off. This would be an issue when you were on a different server from the destination (for example if you drink the potion on the Guldorand Server it would look like you simply logged off instead of portaling to the Surface Server.

[Edens_Fall]

I'm not really sure why the idea of forcing PvP is so popular, nor why the idea of escaping is so bad. A foe that flees is still a win for whoever, while a bashed corpse and collected ear is . . . a bigger win? Perhaps it is the new 48 Hour rule? Since PvP death doesn't carry much weight otherwise, it is a nice tool to restrict areas I suppose. In the end, I guess my experience with PvP is generally different from most, but the idea of being jumped by a larger force while out visiting shops and not having a way to escape a one-sided and oftentimes poorly RP'd death is kind of depressing. I do like the idea of a Visual effect when someone does use a potion to let others know what happened, however.

To Players: On a side note, I might suggest that while you wait for this escape opinion to be removed, that those who are super eager for the kill do what everyone else does. Drop -ward before even going to talk to the PC in question.

Food for Thought: While the idea of your foe not being able to escape your faction's divine justice seems nice now, there will come a day when you are on the other side of the roll mob and wondering why you can never seem to escape.

[WanderingPoet]

I think it is too easy right now, but mostly because of the lack of information - I could be wrong but I don't think it even tells you it was an attunement potion they drank.

Having a clear visual would definitely help as you could counter play much more easily by following with your own attunement potion (and I agree on the plot armour issue noted above).

To this end I propose the following:

• When a potion of attunement is drunk, an effect begins that lasts for 12 seconds (2 rounds.)

• A VFX is shown when a potion of attunement is used, so people are notified what people are actually doing.

• A “buffer” of 100 damage is made, which if broken, ends the potion of attunement’s effect and they are not teleported.

• The effect of the potion of attunement sits at the top of the breach list, and can be breached off as well. If so, you are not teleported

• Drinking the potion should lower your sobriety by -70, so that you can’t use this for a damage buffer in PVP, as it would share resources with heal pots.

• If the effect has lasted the full 12 seconds, and if it’s buffer is >0, they do teleport

I do think the buffer of 100 damage is meh here, especially with it making you drunk. It also overcomplicates without adding and real value, unless you can't even cast lesser spellbreach from a scroll (20 lore only), it'll always be more consistent to spell breach over attack. It makes more sense for magic to counter magic.

But I like the idea of a visual breachable effect that they have two rounds to clear. That's in line with other methods of PVP. The person could always flee to avoid it being breached, or drink more than one if need be.

It'd also be good if ward teleport cast /after/ the person tries to lens/-teleport/attunement potion actually worked at stopping them.

[Scurvy Cur]

I think it is too easy right now, but mostly because of the lack of information - I could be wrong but I don't think it even tells you it was an attunement potion they drank.

Having a clear visual would definitely help as you could counter play much more easily by following with your own attunement potion (and I agree on the plot armour issue noted above).

....

It'd also be good if ward teleport cast /after/ the person tries to lens/-teleport/attunement potion actually worked at stopping them.

You could probably do this by moving the "in combat/warded?" check to the end of the round, or repeating it at that point. This is related to the old "once you get the dialog window open, you've escaped unless someone manages to kill you before you press a destination button" issue on lenses/portals: the check only occurs when the dialog window/attunement script starts.

[WanderingPoet]

I think it is too easy right now, but mostly because of the lack of information - I could be wrong but I don't think it even tells you it was an attunement potion they drank.

Having a clear visual would definitely help as you could counter play much more easily by following with your own attunement potion (and I agree on the plot armour issue noted above).

....

It'd also be good if ward teleport cast /after/ the person tries to lens/-teleport/attunement potion actually worked at stopping them.

You could probably do this by moving the "in combat/warded?" check to the end of the round, or repeating it at that point. This is related to the old "once you get the dialog window open, you've escaped unless someone manages to kill you before you press a destination button" issue on lenses/portals: the check only occurs when the dialog window/attunement script starts.

I agree. I think that'd be a large improvement!

In this case, it's not about winning or killing the enemy, so much as sportsmanship. It's really not that hard to escape (unless you're 100% mundane str build with no consumables) if you really want to, but as soon as someone drinks a portion/uses a lens/-teleport, you either let them go or try to kill them in one round. Split second reflexes to get them in combat before the trigger checks isn't a fun conflict.

Making it so you have a few more seconds to counterplay would make it a less frustrating affair. Also I think people'd be less likely to preemptively ward or hurry into PVP if they knew they had a few more seconds to capture if they tried to get away.

Though I do stand by the idea that if someone is going to be cheesy, just find someone else to RP with; sometimes people RP at you and the current lens/attunement potion/-teleport mechanic is very much an RP /at/ mechanic; since only they get to choose when the interaction is over.

With how it currently stands, it's little better than allowing people to log off

[DM Poppy]

What if Attunement Potions only safely functioned if drank at a particular location. In those locations, you would arrive at an intended location such as Shadow Cordor, Trade Post or Wharftown.

If you consume them anywhere other than these locations, you arrive in a far less hospitable landscape. Udos, Baator etc. Namely some epic area where arriving their unprepared is going to be painful

[Choofed]

-

This was in response to people saying people were chugging them in response to ooc messages like 'Your disguise has been broken." or something like that, as it was brought up earlier in the thread.

If people are doing that and breaking rules by using ooc notifications as a signal to suddenly bail, then that is something that player should be punished for, not everyone because a few people are abusing OOC mechanics for IC gains.

Yeah it's a very tricky thing to moderate I imagine. I actually record 24/7 while playing, but you'd be amazed how often it happens and how demoralising it can be to spend so much time writing reports against players.

However, I can't help but feel like this suggestion isn't made in the best of faith? The original point reads like "This is how most people escape me and I want to win more often so change this item so I can do so more often."

I mean, yet, this is commentary based on my gameplay experience. I'm not really sure if that's bad faith?

I'm not trying to manipulate people, I genuinely believe this is presently an issue.

Another idea to throw into the mix: if devs wants to reduce the impact of attunement potions being used to cheesily escape PVP, you could just make fewer areas link to the Shadovar Trade Post. I'm confident that 99% of people drinking attunement potions to escape combat do it because they know they're going to a place where they can't be PVP'd. If an aggressor could drink their own attunement potion and continue the fight in a new plane, that could be a little more engaging of a chase.

I really like this idea. Presently following on from MRFTW's statement "The counter to attunement potions is attunement potions" is that presently, people can just go into no PVP areas with plot armour. Severing that connection would be a nice measure to consider by the developement team.

My only thought to this is that some VFX or notification should probably be added that way you can distinguish between someone who drank a potion of attunement and someone who simply logged off.

Totally agree. It'd be nice frankly, if in the combat log this was placed for all teleporations that they did actually teleport. I had someone pretend they teleported from a quarter the other day, but they just logged off and I found them 5 minutes later.

I'm not really sure why the idea of forcing PvP is so popular, nor why the idea of escaping is so bad. A foe that flees is still a win for whoever, while a bashed corpse and collected ear is . . . a bigger win? Perhaps it is the new 48 Hour rule? Since PvP death doesn't carry much weight otherwise, it is a nice tool to restrict areas I suppose. In the end, I guess my experience with PvP is generally different from most, but the idea of being jumped by a larger force while out visiting shops and not having a way to escape a one-sided and oftentimes poorly RP'd death is kind of depressing. I do like the idea of a Visual effect when someone does use a potion to let others know what happened, however.

To Players: On a side note, I might suggest that while you wait for this escape opinion to be removed, that those who are super eager for the kill do what everyone else does. Drop -ward before even going to talk to the PC in question.

Food for Thought: While the idea of your foe not being able to escape your faction's divine justice seems nice now, there will come a day when you are on the other side of the roll mob and wondering why you can never seem to escape.

Character conflict has narritive value. A thief being able to instantly escape the moment they get caught pickpocketing, a burglar getting caught in the act, a known vampire being caught shopping in a civilised city has value being processed and them being scared off and caught out. Just because you play a bad (or good) and don't like PVP, it doesn't mean the character is narritively immune to bad things happening to it when they take extreme risk becuase they can immediately whisk themself out of situations.

The discussion I have presented is of the relative balance between escape options and the ability to catch people. I am not advocating for the removal of potions of attunement entirely.

I think it is too easy right now, but mostly because of the lack of information - I could be wrong but I don't think it even tells you it was an attunement potion they drank.

Having a clear visual would definitely help as you could counter play much more easily by following with your own attunement potion (and I agree on the plot armour issue noted above).

-

I do think the buffer of 100 damage is meh here, especially with it making you drunk. It also overcomplicates without adding and real value, unless you can't even cast lesser spellbreach from a scroll (20 lore only), it'll always be more consistent to spell breach over attack. It makes more sense for magic to counter magic.

But I like the idea of a visual breachable effect that they have two rounds to clear. That's in line with other methods of PVP. The person could always flee to avoid it being breached, or drink more than one if need be.

It'd also be good if ward teleport cast /after/ the person tries to lens/-teleport/attunement potion actually worked at stopping them.

Sure, if the damage buffer complicates things than fair enough honestly. I just checked in with Sincera at the start to appraise the technical feasibility of my proposal.

Spell breaches, and a checksum at the exit of any teleport sounds great to me. Honestly, any change sounds nice to me. I fully accept that the option I laid out may not be the optimal (though I do believe it's a good one), but was a good catalyst to the discussion.

What if Attunement Potions only safely functioned if drank at a particular location. In those locations, you would arrive at an intended location such as Shadow Cordor, Trade Post or Wharftown.

If you consume them anywhere other than these locations, you arrive in a far less hospitable landscape. Udos, Baator etc. Namely some epic area where arriving their unprepared is going to be painful

I yeah, I really like the idea of us disconnecting some of the multitude of areas that lead to the trade post. I would say we don't make it totally random, so if people want to follow they atleast can from the same location.

[ClockworkRed]

How about they just get a 5 or 10 percent chance to fail in order to add some risk, so people think twice before entering a dangerous situation?

[WanderingPoet]

Spell breaches, and a checksum at the exit of any teleport sounds great to me. Honestly, any change sounds nice to me. I fully accept that the option I laid out may not be the optimal (though I do believe it's a good one), but was a good catalyst to the discussion.

It was a good catalyst for discussion! Thank you for thinking of ideas and starting an interesting discussion. I definitely like the idea of the VFX and breachability.

What if Attunement Potions only safely functioned if drank at a particular location. In those locations, you would arrive at an intended location such as Shadow Cordor, Trade Post or Wharftown.

If you consume them anywhere other than these locations, you arrive in a far less hospitable landscape. Udos, Baator etc. Namely some epic area where arriving their unprepared is going to be painful

I yeah, I really like the idea of us disconnecting some of the multitude of areas that lead to the trade post. I would say we don't make it totally random, so if people want to follow they atleast can from the same location.

I also think that'd be cool to disconnect things from the trade post.

-However-

I know that a LOT of new players accidentally use attunement potions wondering what they do; we have a lot of Skal folk end up on the mainland this way and not know why/how to return. Maybe they don't need to lead to dangerous places, could be something like:

Cordor = Shadow Cordor
Wharftown = Shadow Wharftown
Current Astrolabe locations = Astrolabe
Brogendenstein/Bendir/Myon = Trade Post
Other Surface location = Udos or some other dangerous location
Sibayad = Baator
Skal = Skal Underdark
Guldorand = Soulhaven or Shadow Westcliff if that still exists
Other places on Guldorand server = Same as Surface
Andunor = Trade Post
Other underdark outside Andunor = Same as Surface

That way new folk using them while in towns end up somewhere safe (trade post) and it's thematic to go from one town to another. If you're not in a town then you're probably going to die. And a few thematic ones

[Paint]

How about making chugging an attunement pot have a chance to send you somewhere /other/ than the shadovar trade post? Could be fun for RP, makes using the potions riskier, and provides incentives for people to ask a guide for help to the plane of shadows, rather than just chugging a pot.

Additionally, put portal lenses and teleport/teleport create on a short cooldown after using an attunement pot, so that the risk of being dropped into a hostile environment isn't easily mitigated by readily accessed escape tools.

Alternatively, maybe put attunement pot use on a much, much longer cooldown. Several IRL hours. Or even the whole day. That way, if people are going to rely on the attunement pot to escape combat situations, they'll be cutting the amount of control over a given narrative they have by a lot. Either they cool off, then log out, effectively surrendering any control they'd have over that narrative for the rest of the day, or their opponents have an entire afternoon to hunt them down elsewhere, where they can't use the same trick again.

Honestly, I don't really mind attunement pots anyways.

[BananaShipRepublic]

Another idea to throw into the mix: if devs wants to reduce the impact of attunement potions being used to cheesily escape PVP, you could just make fewer areas link to the Shadovar Trade Post. I'm confident that 99% of people drinking attunement potions to escape combat do it because they know they're going to a place where they can't be PVP'd. If an aggressor could drink their own attunement potion and continue the fight in a new plane, that could be a little more engaging of a chase.

My only thought to this is that some VFX or notification should probably be added that way you can distinguish between someone who drank a potion of attunement and someone who simply logged off. This would be an issue when you were on a different server from the destination (for example if you drink the potion on the Guldorand Server it would look like you simply logged off instead of portaling to the Surface Server.

I like it!

[MissEvelyn]

Every month or two, a thread pops up on how it's too easy to escape PvP.

Why is this an issue? Some people just don't want to deal with PvP, and on a server where player trust has eroded significantly, I think it's a good compromise to have quick tools of easy escape.

Like others have pointed out, there are counter measures against them already.

No, I do not believe that a PvP aggressor should have it so easy that their victim can't escape. The player trust issue won't *ever* be fixed by forcing someone to PvP. If anything, the burden of proof of trust lies on the PvP agressor.
Show the other player that you don't intend to kill-bash them with one line of roleplay. Show them you have what it takes to create a meaningful story, with or without PvP. Earn their trust first, then perhaps they won't be so quick to twist a portal lens or gulp down an attunement potion.

[Atlus]

As long as the changes don't impact the potion's primary use (reaching the Shadovar) I don't care how it's changed.

I agree with the idea of a delay added to the potion.

That also means no failure chance being added to the expensive potion. That's absolutely lame.

[rosediode]

Every month or two, a thread pops up on how it's too easy to escape PvP.

Why is this an issue? Some people just don't want to deal with PvP, and on a server where player trust has eroded significantly, I think it's a good compromise to have quick tools of easy escape.

Like others have pointed out, there are counter measures against them already.

No, I do not believe that a PvP aggressor should have it so easy that their victim can't escape. The player trust issue won't *ever* be fixed by forcing someone to PvP. If anything, the burden of proof of trust lies on the PvP agressor.
Show the other player that you don't intend to kill-bash them with one line of roleplay. Show them you have what it takes to create a meaningful story, with or without PvP. Earn their trust first, then perhaps they won't be so quick to twist a portal lens or gulp down an attunement potion.

I think the issue with this is often PvP is the only reply to certain roleplay, as consequences for actions or as counter-play. Truthfully, if someone has repeatedly caused problems and I do not want to have to deal with someone continuing to push and prod and interrupt, my only real recourse is PvP. I can not force anyone to leave me alone in any other way.

Attunement potions in their current state encourage one-line PVP. Lots of folks are not interested in the consequences of having to avoid someplace or someone for 48 hours so they rather run and use a potion, and will not engage in roleplay with you regardless of your reputation of one lining or not.

[Morgy]

There seems to be a bit of misunderstanding in this thread that OP is trying to stop people escaping pvp. They are not, they are just saying it should require a little more effort than using a potion to magic you away.

There are many creative ways to escape, that allow for a bit more interaction, even chance and chase. I have used them myself to great effect, and they are far less cheesy.

For those that wish to entirely avoid PvP, I appreciate this, but this is a PvP enabled server and forms a significant part of many plots. You still have options, but no one can be immune.

[Edens_Fall]

Every month or two, a thread pops up on how it's too easy to escape PvP.

Why is this an issue? Some people just don't want to deal with PvP, and on a server where player trust has eroded significantly, I think it's a good compromise to have quick tools of easy escape.

Like others have pointed out, there are countermeasures against them already.

No, I do not believe that a PvP aggressor should have it so easy that their victim can't escape. The player trust issue won't *ever* be fixed by forcing someone to PvP. If anything, the burden of proof of trust lies on the PvP aggressor.
Show the other player that you don't intend to kill-bash them with one line of roleplay. Show them you have what it takes to create a meaningful story, with or without PvP. Earn their trust first, then perhaps they won't be so quick to twist a portal lens or gulp down an attunement potion.

+1

Sadly it boils down to the current server's limit to narrative control and meaningful endings other than KBings your foe with Scry gank squads until they shelve or roll. As is, PVP is the only way many can force a narrative onto another, and as such it's the go-to form of storytelling these days. True some players do make an extra effort with OOC communication and story collaborations etc., but how many times can we point to past faction conflicts that have ended with nothing but PVP parties until DMs stepped in to pass out bans. That is kind of the reason I dislike "fixes" that make the already difficult task of escape even harder.

While I am not sure how many have enjoyed the pleasure of a onesided conflict in the name of "meaningful consequences", I can assure you it's not as fulfilling as one might think. Rather than seeing meaningful RP and storytelling, it generally goes along the lines of *Minding one's own business, group appears, -ward dropped, one-line, time stop, IGMS to the face*. This of course generally happens after a -scry or disguise spam break. With the current META of burst damage and the win generally going to whoever attacks first, can we really expect anything else? Why make it even harder and one-sided? We are all here to play a game and have fun after all. What does it matter if a pickpocket gets away with a handful of coins, or that a vile surfacer shopping in the hub escaped? I rather those that are abusing the system be reported and addressed than everyone who isn't the current META PVP build and making the choice to escape a hopeless situation be penalized.


FINAL THOUGHT: My rant aside, I do really like the idea of a VFX being applied to the Potion use and the potion giving a risk of ending up someplace dangerous. Honestly, such sounds really fun as the current potions are rather boring past their two common uses.

[Edens_Fall]

I'm not really sure why the idea of forcing PvP is so popular, nor why the idea of escaping is so bad. A foe that flees is still a win for whoever, while a bashed corpse and collected ear is . . . a bigger win? Perhaps it is the new 48 Hour rule? Since PvP death doesn't carry much weight otherwise, it is a nice tool to restrict areas I suppose. In the end, I guess my experience with PvP is generally different from most, but the idea of being jumped by a larger force while out visiting shops and not having a way to escape a one-sided and oftentimes poorly RP'd death is kind of depressing. I do like the idea of a Visual effect when someone does use a potion to let others know what happened, however.

To Players: On a side note, I might suggest that while you wait for this escape opinion to be removed, that those who are super eager for the kill do what everyone else does. Drop -ward before even going to talk to the PC in question.

Food for Thought: While the idea of your foe not being able to escape your faction's divine justice seems nice now, there will come a day when you are on the other side of the roll mob and wondering why you can never seem to escape.

Character conflict has narritive value. A thief being able to instantly escape the moment they get caught pickpocketing, a burglar getting caught in the act, a known vampire being caught shopping in a civilised city has value being processed and them being scared off and caught out. Just because you play a bad (or good) and don't like PVP, it doesn't mean the character is narritively immune to bad things happening to it when they take extreme risk becuase they can immediately whisk themself out of situations.

The discussion I have presented is of the relative balance between escape options and the ability to catch people. I am not advocating for the removal of potions of attunement entirely.

I completely agree. Character conflict has great value in a narrative. Thieves can slip away with the prize, burglars caught can escape the city guards, and a vampire hunting for prey can create a memorable encounter for some lucky traveler. Both can win or lose based on an untold number of factors. That is awesome, fun, and exciting. But escaping death doesn't make them immune to bad things. It just means they got away and might not the next time.

Not every encounter has to end in a KB. But let's be honest . . . how many don't? A pickpocket, a minor crime in most law systems, use to result in immediate death to the criminal if caught. All over a handful of gold. A burglar caught in someone's house? You bet that's PvP. Vampire in a city? ROFL that's a "death" no matter where they are found. So the "villain" is left with a choice. Stay and face the person that caught them (generally outnumbered) or flee. Sure they can risk it and stay, but what narrative value can they expect to happen? Honestly? Do they take that chance the other PC will offer them a chance at great RP? A chance to escape? A fine and a warning? OR do they run knowing chances are very high they will be killed and Paraihed in most settlements for such crimes? All it takes is a few back encounters over the years to scar either side's player from risking RP over a fast escape or even faster attack.

It's an infinite loop we have currently. One side runs at the drop of a hat because they know they will be killed, while the other side attacks at the drop of a hat fearing their prey might escape. No idea how to fix it, other than hoping players focus more on storytelling and less on PvP winning.

Either way, I am just sharing some thoughts, and nothing is directed at you or against you. I just felt its good to hear from both perspectives in things like these. Not just from those who lament "the one ear that got away" but from those who more often than not, lose said ears.

[D4wN]

I'm not really sure why the idea of forcing PvP is so popular, nor why the idea of escaping is so bad. A foe that flees is still a win for whoever, while a bashed corpse and collected ear is . . . a bigger win? Perhaps it is the new 48 Hour rule? Since PvP death doesn't carry much weight otherwise, it is a nice tool to restrict areas I suppose. In the end, I guess my experience with PvP is generally different from most, but the idea of being jumped by a larger force while out visiting shops and not having a way to escape a one-sided and oftentimes poorly RP'd death is kind of depressing. I do like the idea of a Visual effect when someone does use a potion to let others know what happened, however.

To Players: On a side note, I might suggest that while you wait for this escape opinion to be removed, that those who are super eager for the kill do what everyone else does. Drop -ward before even going to talk to the PC in question.

Food for Thought: While the idea of your foe not being able to escape your faction's divine justice seems nice now, there will come a day when you are on the other side of the roll mob and wondering why you can never seem to escape.

Character conflict has narritive value. A thief being able to instantly escape the moment they get caught pickpocketing, a burglar getting caught in the act, a known vampire being caught shopping in a civilised city has value being processed and them being scared off and caught out. Just because you play a bad (or good) and don't like PVP, it doesn't mean the character is narritively immune to bad things happening to it when they take extreme risk becuase they can immediately whisk themself out of situations.

The discussion I have presented is of the relative balance between escape options and the ability to catch people. I am not advocating for the removal of potions of attunement entirely.

I completely agree. Character conflict has great value in a narrative. Thieves can slip away with the prize, burglars caught can escape the city guards, and a vampire hunting for prey can create a memorable encounter for some lucky traveler. Both can win or lose based on an untold number of factors. That is awesome, fun, and exciting. But escaping death doesn't make them immune to bad things. It just means they got away and might not the next time.

Not every encounter has to end in a KB. But let's be honest . . . how many don't? A pickpocket, a minor crime in most law systems, use to result in immediate death to the criminal if caught. All over a handful of gold. A burglar caught in someone's house? You bet that's PvP. Vampire in a city? ROFL that's a "death" no matter where they are found. So the "villain" is left with a choice. Stay and face the person that caught them (generally outnumbered) or flee. Sure they can risk it and stay, but what narrative value can they expect to happen? Honestly? Do they take that chance the other PC will offer them a chance at great RP? A chance to escape? A fine and a warning? OR do they run knowing chances are very high they will be killed and Paraihed in most settlements for such crimes? All it takes is a few back encounters over the years to scar either side's player from risking RP over a fast escape or even faster attack.

It's an infinite loop we have currently. One side runs at the drop of a hat because they know they will be killed, while the other side attacks at the drop of a hat fearing their prey might escape. No idea how to fix it, other than hoping players focus more on storytelling and less on PvP winning.

Either way, I am just sharing some thoughts, and nothing is directed at you or against you. I just felt its good to hear from both perspectives in things like these. Not just from those who lament "the one ear that got away" but from those who more often than not, lose said ears.

I personally think that we're all quite limited in giving someone great RP when they continue to come into enemy territory without showing any fear. I don't go walking my good guy into the Hub either and expect anything other than being chased out, attacked or killed. Known Vampires or other evils shouldn't feel safe walking into a place like Cordor or the Radiant Heart either.

This server is build on good and evil (and the in-betweens). A vampire is an example of extreme evil and a paladin of extreme good. You're a Paladin, you let the vampire go. Why? What RP is this going to create for anyone when you encounter a vampire in the city you are sworn to protect? What logic would apply to a Paladin to let someone like that go? When the vampire shows no fear or understanding why they are being hated by the good guys. Or the Abyssalist, Animator, Infernalist.. Name it. What RP do you hope to create with walking into their city? Sure, you can say you're there to prey on the innocent. Great! You might even get away with it and created a cool story for someone who's had their blood sucked by a Vampire and may now suffer whatever trauma from that. Awesome! And keep doing that for sure. But at the end of the day, you're hunting in enemy territory, you should be prepared that someone may find you and will want you dead.

I'm no proponent of corpse bashing. I might do it on rare occasions if it furthers RP, but otherwise I don't. That's a personal choice and I don't expect others to do that back for me. But the point is that you should be prepared for that being a possibility especially when you go seeking out conflict. The infinite loop to some exists because they keep actively putting themselves in these situations and there's simply not enough options to end conflict in these situations any other way. When people don't respect death or RP fear, there's really not much else you can do.

This connects to one of the scenarios I mentioned in an earlier post. If you actively go seek it out and then cheese an escape through a potion, pointing and laughing at the people who weren't able to catch you? I don't think that's particularly respectful or abiding by the 'Be Nice' rule either nor is it giving those people any RP. You come in, do your bad thing and the moment you get caught you chug a potion of instant escape causing a situation where the others will never have a chance to get <insert justice/revenge etc.> It would feel very much being RP'd at for the opposing team/people/individuals too.

[Nobs]

All of this would not be a thing if we had no portals.

Scry ganks would be way harder.
Runing away from pvp would be way harder.
The roads and wilderniss area would feel less dead.
Arelith is huge but it also often feels dead when you travel by foot or horseback.
All in all it would feel a lot less like a mmo where folks tp tp tp tp to every direction to bang out stuff for their pixel rewards.

And hey i get it people dont have 10 hours a day to play a game.
But is traveling not a big part of dnd?
I always think its sad that if you walk all the way from Cordor to Westcliff you maybe see 1 guy but mostly simply no one unless its close to a portal.

I realy dont see a porblem with spending 30 min to get to a dungeon and then 30 min the other day doing the dungeon with your palls. (If you guys dont have mutch time to play)
And hey...who knows what you wil find along the roads for fun with other people.

For the folks that played or are still playing world of warcraft all know the game felt more like an adventure when we had to travel over land to get to dungeons.
Flying mounts and portals to dungeons where added and the game lost its adventure feel and the world it self felt lifeless.

[BananaShipRepublic]

The roads and wilderniss area would feel less dead.

I disagree. Traveling around Arelith on foot takes a lot of time and portals are responsible for the ease-of-access that has allowed Arelith to flourish -- "casuals" likely far outnumber those with the time to walk everywhere on Arelith and I think if portals were removed Arelith's player numbers would drop substantially over a year's time if such a change were made. Likewise they are what make such large, expansive area's sustainable

[Nobs]

The roads and wilderniss area would feel less dead.

I disagree. Traveling around Arelith on foot takes a lot of time and portals are responsible for the ease-of-access that has allowed Arelith to flourish -- "casuals" likely far outnumber those with the time to walk everywhere on Arelith and I think if portals were removed Arelith's player numbers would drop substantially over a year's time if such a change were made. Likewise they are what make such large, expansive area's sustainable

I disagree , traveling should be part of our fantastic big server.
Why even have so many zones that look epic in a lot of places to just skip it all with a portal network.
Why dont people want to rp along the roads , becouse they dont get their pixel reward dopamine right away?
Lets be honest here , how many zones dont see any trafic simply becouse people tp every where...its just a shame some devs make the zones only to have them collect dust and see little to no use at all.

Traveling is where the adventure starts...not at the dungeon entrance.