Arelith

If we're really going to give Commoner even more, then can we please take away their armor and weapon proficiencies? It makes zero sense that a Commoner has more expertise with a Magic Staff and a suit of leather armor than a Cleric Healer does.

JustMonika wrote: Tue Nov 08, 2022 5:11 pm I thought commoners specifically did not get XP from kills? How does other people fighting help them level up?

It's not other people fighting, but other people gathering materials that no commoner could get on their own because they would require fighting. My commoner's faction brought her tons of raw gems to cut, rare herbs for unique potions worth making only once, hides to make leather, etc. which really helped get her adventure XP bank full. It's theoretically possible to create and play a commoner without a backing faction, but that is a level of masochism that I think few people would enjoy.

I think this ties into the debate that was happening a while ago about the ability of characters to advance when backed by a faction compared to anyone else.

Good Character wrote: Tue Nov 08, 2022 3:33 am The real numbers as 100 adventure XP ticks don't exist.

Assuming a 20 RPR,

Levels 1-10: 62.5 hours
Levels 11-20: 151.04 hours
Levels 21-30: 170.14

Totals to roughly 383.67 hours. Assuming 2 hours per day everyday with an average of 30 days per month, it will take you 6.39 months to hit 30.

This is assuming you have adventure XP 24/7.

This class blows. The "it's a commomer so they shouldn't do anything exceptional" is a significant cop-out, and the reason it's one of the must underplayed classes long-term. The class needs far more bonuses like XP being provided per node harvested, more resources harvested per node, chance to retain a portion of materials used in a craft, etc. As mentioned above, 25 fighter/5 loremaster is just so more appealing AND it's still a good class to fight with.

Ah, when I first posted here I didn't bother with reading anything other than the OP's post at first. But it's good to see the actual number here, thank you for that.

Even with it taking over half a year, I think that's perfectly fine. But then again my standards have shifted quite a lot, especially when it comes to what kind of a leveling speed I prefer (which is why I keep running my mouth about the current state of Arelith's "RP starts at 30" situation here on the forums).

I think people view commoners taking so "long" to level as being bad because of the hyper-speed velocity that Arelith is currently speeding around on when it comes to leveling. If you compare months of time needed to max-level a commoner to a good solo build making their way to 30 in less than two weeks ... both on the same server? Of course that'll make some people go "huh, that seems way too slow".

I frankly see the issue the other way around. But then again maybe I am totally wrong and people are justified when they think a commoner should be up at 30 in about the same time if we consider that grandma NPCs from Guldorand can cast Ghostly Visage and probably solo the coal mines outside of Cordor if given the chance. Everything is super-high fantasy.

Ebonstar wrote: Tue Nov 08, 2022 4:39 pm

Gullys wrote: Tue Nov 08, 2022 3:10 am

Ebonstar wrote: Tue Nov 08, 2022 2:43 am

Ticks are 5 minutes and you should use 20 rpr since that is most plausible,40-50 is so rare using it just changes your numbers badly

I did consider using 20 RPR when doing this, but I really wanted to showcase how awfully long it would take for someone with 50 RPR. The 100 adventure xp per tick isn't exactly guaranteed either since the bonus you get from adventure xp scales on your level (lower level = lower gain per tick below 100).

Goes to show that 190 hours is the absolute quickest you could achieve lvl 30, playing leisurely is most likely upwards of 250-300 hours.

for one it jumps to 100 pool tick at level 10, which you can hit in 12 hours even as a commoner doing courier writs and crafting.

The class doesnt need a change, as its for social RP not how fast you can hit max level.

Commoners can and do also sail with adventurer players which speeds up leveling do to getting shared xp while sailing. same with walking and letting other people do the fighting while you gather materials.

This is why your lovely math really doesnt matter as noone relies solely on rp ticks.

Appreciate your response, but Commoners can’t take writs at all and do not receive XP for kills. I could see xp gained from fishing being reliable if that’s what you meant by sailing. This conversation also has pivoted away from the length of leveling if you read the edit up top.

MissEvelyn wrote: Tue Nov 08, 2022 5:37 pm If we're really going to give Commoner even more, then can we please take away their armor and weapon proficiencies? It makes zero sense that a Commoner has more expertise with a Magic Staff and a suit of leather armor than a Cleric Healer does.

This is a great statement actually. I know someone mentioned having sneak and guard as a Commoner but now that I think about it…it wouldn’t make sense? Since Commoner’s aren’t suppose to be adventures in any aspect.

JustMonika wrote: Tue Nov 08, 2022 7:16 pm I think this ties into the debate that was happening a while ago about the ability of characters to advance when backed by a faction compared to anyone else.

^ Super common problem when you consider different groupings. But to bring it back to Commoner, I think it should (even if it’s difficult), be able to be played within a solo space without backing. Relying on players to make a class better than the system it was designed as is unreliable.

JustMonika wrote: Tue Nov 08, 2022 7:16 pm I think this ties into the debate that was happening a while ago about the ability of characters to advance when backed by a faction compared to anyone else.

Whenever there are such debates about factions, my perspective is usually the same: Yes, being in an organized faction has its advantages. But, almost anyone can make or join a faction and check out those advantages themselves.

That’s is doubly true in the case of commoners. If you want to play a commoner with faction support, I can almost guarantee that most factions would be thrilled to scoop them up at the earliest opportunity.

Gullys wrote: Tue Nov 08, 2022 8:12 pm

JustMonika wrote: Tue Nov 08, 2022 7:16 pm I think this ties into the debate that was happening a while ago about the ability of characters to advance when backed by a faction compared to anyone else.

^ Super common problem when you consider different groupings. But to bring it back to Commoner, I think it should (even if it’s difficult), be able to be played within a solo space without backing. Relying on players to make a class better than the system it was designed as is unreliable.

It is possible. I know one commoner who got to level 29 without major faction backing (ended up rebuilding as a combat class for plot reasons and nothing else). But it's not something I would ever want to do.

The one thing you really need before building a commoner is a solid plan and some way to track your crafting. Due to tick XP there's no way you can get completely stuck - you can always level up; it just could be truly glacial - but if you picked, say, alchemy for your first craft, you're gonna have a bad time getting your materials because you don't have the money to pay people for the materials (unless you picked Gift of Wealth, but see my note about planning above) and you can't get them yourself. Herbalism? That you can do.

I do think at a certain point, the response to "should we be able to do XYZ on our own?" on Arelith is "no." Arelith has a robust faction system for a reason. It's part of the server design philosophy to force people to collaborate. Commoners are just an obvious example.

Gullys wrote: Tue Nov 08, 2022 8:04 pm

Ebonstar wrote: Tue Nov 08, 2022 4:39 pm

Gullys wrote: Tue Nov 08, 2022 3:10 am

I did consider using 20 RPR when doing this, but I really wanted to showcase how awfully long it would take for someone with 50 RPR. The 100 adventure xp per tick isn't exactly guaranteed either since the bonus you get from adventure xp scales on your level (lower level = lower gain per tick below 100).

Goes to show that 190 hours is the absolute quickest you could achieve lvl 30, playing leisurely is most likely upwards of 250-300 hours.

for one it jumps to 100 pool tick at level 10, which you can hit in 12 hours even as a commoner doing courier writs and crafting.

The class doesnt need a change, as its for social RP not how fast you can hit max level.

Commoners can and do also sail with adventurer players which speeds up leveling do to getting shared xp while sailing. same with walking and letting other people do the fighting while you gather materials.

This is why your lovely math really doesnt matter as noone relies solely on rp ticks.

Appreciate your response, but Commoners can’t take writs at all and do not receive XP for kills. I could see xp gained from fishing being reliable if that’s what you meant by sailing. This conversation also has pivoted away from the length of leveling if you read the edit up top.

Ive seen commoners doing courier writs, and also seen the get xp on a sailing mission for all the odds and ends xp as well as being in the party when the others make kills on the deck.

As for noone gets 100 xp ticks from their pool, I have a character right now that from lvl 3 to 9 got 60 per tick and when I hit 10 the tick went to 100 per tick from the pool. And Ive leveled another char to 30 with the same pool tick structure

Unless it was changed in the last few months: Commoners don't get xp from courier writs and they don't get the extra tick xp when sailing. They do get fishing xp, which is pretty low.

Need commoner focused writs. Like escort/gathering missions that require them to have at least one player guard. Trade off is they get a good chunk of XP, and the guards get a XP and gold for their work.

You can even work this into certain systems that benefit areas. So {X number} commoners do a trade run between town A and town B and it ups returns for those writ givers by 10-20% for a few hours as an example.

I don't think commoner is in need of buffs because it's largely a meme class that doesn't contribute anything meaningful narratively that another class can't, aside from saying something like, "I'm a master blacksmith AND alchemist." Beyond this, the class also often feels very meta when roleplayed because several people go, "I did 'x' as a commoner, lol", like rune dungeons or settlement leadership.

It is a class that exists for craftbotting and I suspect there is a reason I saw a dip in them when not having multiple characters in the same faction started getting enforced (not that they don't just exist outside of factions for the same friend groups now anyway). Making them better isn't a good thing for a server that's allegedly having problems with its economy.

If you want an authentic commoner experience, pick fighter at char-gen and don't click level up.

sounds like the OP should just play a bard/loremaster.

This class wasn't designed to be on equal terms with other classes.

I would like to see Commoners have some unique crafting options open beyond just self-containment or volume. Like, crafting DC's that only a Commoner can reach, and lower DC recipes that only Commoners can make. Commoner should be fun. I don't think it requires more power per se but enhancing the unique aspects could add some enjoyment.

I hate the existence of commoner and as already stated above it is no coincidence that Arelith's economy took a hard dive down since around when the class was introduced. It is capable of doing some really not-common-at-all-things like having nothing better to gear except 80 lore and high UMD. The option to multiclass into specialist really doesnt help the situation. OOC cliques were always a thing but commoner really gives them a drastically huge advantage they did not have previously so I think this class is unhealthy and gamey. If commoner needs any changes, it needs to be removed from the game, or at least restricted from multiclassing specialist.

I would love a Merchant class type of option myself. Something like commoner in the fact it would suck to use for PvE or PvP, but have some bonuses for crafting and selling.

A class less focused on being a crafting machine and more a middle person between players, shops, and NPC merchants maybe? One given perks with all settlement system or something?

Not honestly sure of the details, but I like the idea of it.