The outcast tag is a license to metagame.

[Seekeepeek]

I like how the hobgoblin race looks like humans, beside the use of other head models.
couldn't the outcast background be removed and replaced with a separate underdark human race (same specs as a normal human)?

[Dreams]

So the outcast tag means everyone will know the character's name and who they are?

Not at all. Only that they can see the reaction of the local populace.

Isn't this thread a bit of a wake up call? This system isn't intuitive at all. We have long-term players in here and probably more in game who just don't understand what the tags represent.

[Skarain]

Adding the Outcast explanation to the Astrolabe Arelith Rules (if it isn't there already), and reminding people a bit more via Loading Screen Message (or some other prompt) to read those would probably be good.

A general reminder of the server rules would in general do good for people.

Ignorance isn't a valid excuse to disregarding the rules.

[RedGiant]

I think this thread has two very technical points, both of which are true.

Party's point that you shouldn't know someone's name that you've never heard of IC.

-and-

Outcasts status is completely IC and discernable by location and social interaction with NPCs.

[PowerWord Rage]

I think this thread has two very technical points, both of which are true.

Party's point that you shouldn't know someone's name that you've never heard of IC.

-and-

Outcasts status is completely IC and discernable by location and social interaction with NPCs.

And I stand corrected.
Thanks for the clarification from the Arelith Team

[Xerah]

In that case, you should make the outcast status only show in settlements. Otherwise, how do I know that Outcast Joe is an outcast when chilling in Mourn?

Aside from him being a dummy and telling me his name is outcast Joe.

[But Will It Blend]

I'd love to see a reputation system implemented that allows for a dynamic sort of way of behaviour and responses to change. I think it'd make for some great stories.

[Ork]

In that case, you should make the outcast status only show in settlements. Otherwise, how do I know that Outcast Joe is an outcast when chilling in Mourn?

Aside from him being a dummy and telling me his name is outcast Joe.

Agreed. If outcast tag is conveyed by NPC reactions to an outcast, but the outcast never steps foot in another surface settlement, it wouldn't be possible for PCs to discern an outcast's status by referencing the general populous.

[Shadowy Reality]

Why not a tattoo/mark/brand system?

In the past some Outcasts have done this. They had a description that said they had a tear tattooed into their cheek, a mark of a murderer in some places. I saw another with a rat tattoo, for a snitch.

We could have a multitude of tattoos, marks and brands, each with their own meaning. At creation the Outcast would pick the one that fit their background story. Other PCs would see the marks, maybe with some Lore they know what the mark means, but never a name, just a vague crime.

[Dreams]

In that case, you should make the outcast status only show in settlements. Otherwise, how do I know that Outcast Joe is an outcast when chilling in Mourn?

This is a fantastic solution!

[chris a gogo]

It's a solution to something that isn't an issue for most of the player base.
Your starting in the UD playing a human that was so despised it went to live with monsters, think I've encountered 2 characters that role played such people the rest are just humans in the UD being bff's with orcs and drow, then complaining when the surface characters kill or drive them off, and the complaint is generally "but they don't know my character!" " I'm being meta gamed!".

I really liked the suggestion of getting rid of outcasts completely and making them earn it in game, that way they can start on the surface and have to become so hated that the monsters below are the only place they can turn to.
But as it would take considerable time and effort on the players part to earn something that will negatively impact the character, can't see very many going that route, yet those that do are willing to put effort in to playing an evil despised character that is hated by all decent folk, and good on them for doing it.
This would remove this issue that a few have about the outcast tag.
But it would effectively remove 90% of humans from the under dark.

[Cnaym]

The wiki and rules are pretty clear on the tag and disguises tbh. The only tag that reveals a name (of someone else) is from an owned slave, unless you write something like "wears a nameplate with _hi! I'm joe, welcome to MalxMart_" in your description.

Strongly agree that the rules need more reminders via loading tipps / discord announcements.

In other news, you can earn and apply for outcast if your character turns evil enough. It's a great system people could use. I always figure when the outcasts are low level they just got a reputation as horse thieves or such for now.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

I really liked the suggestion of getting rid of outcasts completely and making them earn it in game, that way they can start on the surface and have to become so hated that the monsters below are the only place they can turn to.
But as it would take considerable time and effort on the players part to earn something that will negatively impact the character, can't see very many going that route, yet those that do are willing to put effort in to playing an evil despised character that is hated by all decent folk, and good on them for doing it.
This would remove this issue that a few have about the outcast tag.
But it would effectively remove 90% of humans from the under dark.

I'm 100% with you on the "earn the reputation in game" bit, but you and I come from the same server where you actually had to earn said reputation, and saying something like "I killed 20 people" without actually killing anyone in game was considered a Faux Pas. It's always difficult to adjust from the roots in which you came.

That being said, if the problem this was trying to solve was give humans a way to hang in the underdark, there was a much better way to do it. Unfortunately, it involves a topic that has been beaten to death already, a second city in the underdark. Make Anundor the skullport it really wants to be, where it slants evil but is not the death sentence for your character if you happened to get scried while visiting for whatever reason. Then you have a second, and truly evil to its core, city deeper into the dark. I personally think the second city should be drow, but it's not a necessity.

If it's done correctly, in my mind at least this would take Arelith to the next level. It would allow characters to interact and get to know each other before the raids happen, ect., and would probably be the most hopping location on the server because it would be a hotbed for conflict that doesn't just start with "ready set pvp!". But again, that just may be my bias based on our roots, where you want to see a story develop and actual mechancial pvp is the climax of the story you and your enemy are telling more often than not, not the root of said conflict.

And it may be that said bias is blinding me to how Arelith wants it to be. I mean, let's face it, the outcast tags, scry, and a few other things I could ramble on about all seem like tools to get to the boom bash pvp as fast as possible, so maybe that's by design and it's my views that are on the outside looking in. Either way, I will continue to call Arelith a solid 8 out of 10 and the best non kink option at this point for nwn roleplay, even if I think there are a lot of easy ways to get it closer to a perfect score.

[AnselHoenheim]

If the reason of needing the outcast tag, or the slave tag was for letting only certain part of the characters to actually use the restrictive portals from the UD, wouldn't just be better remove these tags, and let everyone use any portal regardless if they are or not monster race/outcast/slave/whatever in the UD? Because as far as I know, there is no restrictions at the Surface portals and there is no troubles with that.

[Irongron]

I'm afraid it's now time for one of my longer posts. I'm going to explain how outcast (and its tag) came to be, why I thought it necessary, and why I also found it a huge success. Why I wouldn't want to be without it, and what these tags - noble, outcast and pirate are intended to reflect.

The post is not intended to dismiss the concerns raised (I'm well aware of the RP awkwardness that can arise), but I hope it serves to show why I'm unconvinced by suggested alternatives, and why I don't feel this requires a 'solution'.

We will begin by going back in time a decade (a little over). Underdark was locked mostly in single digit numbers, and those then running Arelith were ready to pull plug on server. At that time it had about 7 racial settlements, all of them stagnant.. I had long pressed for an UD Cordor, and was finally given a free hand to make it. This, it was made clear to me, was a 'do or die' moment for Arelith's Underdark.

Two things, I was determined, had to happen, both of which I stand by to this day. First there could be NO exclusively drow settlement in the UD. It had proven to be a catalyst for toxic PvP, elitism, and generally served to make playing in the UD an unenjoyable prospect for the overwhelming majority of our players. For drow to remain a playable race they had to (and still have to) share a space with others.

The second, absolute must, was adding humans to the Underdark, as a start option (and not just as slaves). The player count list makes clear why - they are BY FAR the most popular race to play, and a thriving city would be impossible without them.

But how to do that? Sure there are some niche UD "human' subtypes, but they are so lore heavy, and one of the great things about the race is the flexibility of concept they afford.

Then what? If I allowed humans full access to UD then the balance of server, and the 'dangerous mystery' of the Underdark would be terminally diminished. These humans, it was clear, would need to share at least some of the surface disadvantages of UD native creatures.

They needed to be recognisable, and discriminated against, on sight. I could (and can) see no other reasonable option.

The idea of outcasts was born. Native Arelithians, who for any host of reasons, to be decided on by the player themselves, were no longer accepted in their home community. The Outcast tag was added to reflect their commonly recognised position in the Arelith surface community.

I cannot script every NPC to mutter under their breath, shake their head or pull their children away as an outcast walks past. For windows to close, for pedestrians to cross the road. Just as with nobles I cannot script shows of deference from every NPC. These tags, as with the Pirate tag for Senciffians, serve as an easy way by which to see social strata in one's native (or at least familiar) community. To those outside of it? They are meaningless.

The alternative of just allowing outcasts to hang out anywhere, only to be recognised as one if one happens to see them trying and failing to access a local merchant or registry agent would be highly artificial, and be a source of frustration. It also, as stated above, just results in an especially unfair environment for UD monsters, who would quicky become even less of a popular choice.

The addition of outcasts proved hugely successful, long before the release of NwN EE the UD became incredibly active, sometimes in triple digits. Without outcasts? This would never have happened.

It is also not lost on me that this topic has come up again so soon after I allowed some flexibility in allowing outcasts to settle on surface for first time, but the fact remains - this choice comes with one major disadvantage - an outcast PC will be shunned by NPCs on the Isle of Arelith.

As for this persistent question of whether one knows the identity of an outcast - no. Just as with nobles - their position within society is plainly visible without knowing exactly who they are. Deciding, and RPing the reason for one being shunned is a challenge to the player, and one where I do not want to railroad. Be creative.

As I said in the introduction I'm not closed to hearing alternatives, but as of right now - I still much prefer the current system.

[Aradin]

Knowing all that, I get why things are the way they are and why it works. If nothing else it makes me more willing to handwave the RP awkwardness the tag can carry, knowing how the tag is a net benefit to the server. Thanks for the info IG.

[Xerah]

I’m not advocating for its removal like other people but if it’s based NPC reactions then I still think my suggestion is the best option.

Also, there is no noble tag but I still understand the point you’re making.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

I appreciated reading your perspective on it all too. I think the server itself plays a lot different than it did back then, when you had more player control over settlements (at least on the surface, not sure how much anundor has changed) and a war mechanic that made pvp oppressive and all-consuming to everyone involved with settlement A or B. The removal of said system and the slow and subtle shifts toward more npc control (again, at least on the surface) have made Arelith a better place in general, and I think a lot of perspectives that were true then may not apply anymore.

But at the very least, knowing where you are coming from will help me make better suggestions the next time this topic comes up. I had a much longer post that wasn't even halfway done and on its seventh paragraph, but in a moment of clarity I spared everyone. The point of it however was that if you want to actually address the issues that lead to outcast being the best option in a way that wasn't as awkward, it would have to start with a reimagining of what anudor is. I recall reading you were burnt at the moment though, so I will save it for the next time this comes up

[Party in the forest at midnight]

I want to be clear, I made this thread because my character is now vice-sheriff of Guldorand and I now have to navigate the awkwardness of the system. This has nothing to do with Sibayad, and the awkwardness has been going on for a lot longer than Sibayad has welcomed outcasts. Even my example involving Adelyn predates the Sibayad change. Sibayad is a healthy direction for the server and don't want it to be blamed.

As someone working in a position of settlement leadership, how should I roleplay the outcast tag? Do I say "Hey, you're the guy the blacksmith said killed six children!"?

If outcast characters are supposed to be Arelith natives, do I report any outcast who is not an Arelith native?

[PowerWord Rage]

I want to be clear, I made this thread because my character is now vice-sheriff of Guldorand and I now have to navigate the awkwardness of the system. This has nothing to do with Sibayad, and the awkwardness has been going on for a lot longer than Sibayad has welcomed outcasts. Even my example involving Adelyn predates the Sibayad change. Sibayad is a healthy direction for the server and don't want it to be blamed.

As someone working in a position of settlement leadership, how should I roleplay the outcast tag? Do I say "Hey, you're the guy the blacksmith said killed six children!"?

If outcast characters are supposed to be Arelith natives, do I report any outcast who is not an Arelith native?

Your situation feels more that it's something that need to be discussed with DMs rather than the topic suggest though and i'll just write why i felt so.

First, Outcast from Wiki wrote " Outcasts are typically native to the island of Arelith but have done (or been convincingly accused of) a crime or act so horrible that civilization has cast them out, refusing to deal with them at all.....Redemption for outcasts is mostly impossible, as whether innocent or guilty their notoriety is such that the populace is convinced of it. While an outcast may be able to convince an individual character of their good nature, they cannot easily manage this in the eyes of every NPC in the game."

If you're the Vice-Sheriff, rather than questioning the system, you may refer to the Guldorand's Law and perhaps discuss with the Founder's Council on their stance towards Outcast because their reputation (by right) are in fact, far beyond even Pariahs or Exiles which are only within that particular settlement.

There're methods to convince yourself on how to approach this issue when you found an Outcast within the City because you do not actually need to know what they did ( Just like a Police Officer will not know the crimes of every single street gangster unless they're trialed with proper documents or after clear investigations but you just knew that they're badass from how the local people avoid them )
Several options became open to you because you're an Official within Guldorand.
I have not read the Founder's Law (well i actually did when i holds a position last year but hey, i cannot remember them clearly) hence, i mention that you may approach the Council on such matters but even if you decide to chase them off the City, there is nothing wrong with it (I think?).
1) Investigating their crimes or what they actually did to attain Outcast status is something that requires time and effort and that itself is RP but the premise is, whether it's worth or not worth.
2) If this Outcast is a friend of someone you know and He vouched for him/her, as the Official, you might still chase him/her out but with a softer approach. Such as, "I'll not want to see you after i return from whatever i'm doing now".

In the first place, Outcasts shouldn't appear blazenly within the Big Cities. Just this sentence "Outcasts are typically native to the island of Arelith but have done (or been convincingly accused of) a crime or act so horrible that civilization has cast them" already speaks volume that if they appear within Big Cities blazenly, there ought to be a something sinister if they decide to settle within Big Cities that generally treat them with aggression.

As written above, you can chose to investigate or not to, whether it's worth or not worth.

I'm simply responding to your situation and not to the Outcast Tag as a whole which other posters and IG have already wrote in length.

And honestly, if you find Outcasts every single day walking around Guldorand or Cordor with not even a proper disguise and all and even multiples of them, this probably requires DM attention.

And lastly, let me end the post with this quote from Wiki about Outcast
"Redemption for outcasts is mostly impossible, as whether innocent or guilty their notoriety is such that the populace is convinced of it. While an outcast may be able to convince an individual character of their good nature, they cannot easily manage this in the eyes of every NPC in the game."

[Ork]

I'll admit I'm yet unconvinced tags are effective. There was a time we had humans in the underdark as outcasts without the tag. It felt like when tags were decided on it was because some bad actors failed to roleplay outcast on the surface and were getting the "best of both worlds".

I would rather not have the tags and allow players that failed to roleplay to continue than have the situation we have had for years where no one knows how to roleplay this tag well.

[LurkingShadow]

The tag is there for a reason.

[AstralUniverse]

A bit late to the thread but I got to ask.

Does anyone actually believe that if the Outcast tag (along with the option to start in the UD as an outcast) the UD population will be in danger of thinning out too much? This isnt 2015.

Players would still be able to actually become human outcasts through RP all the same. If the issue would then be the lack of portals access, well... then we can look at that in two different ways. Either they dont deserve portals, as a downside to being an outcast, or we just finally remove these portal restrictions altogether.

[Second Breakfast]

So I’ve sort of accepted the tag’s presence and its reason for being there; it’s clear that it’s sort of a compromise and not an ideal solution. Okay.

What is pretty goofy is you have a place like Guldorand that has “you have to commit a crime IN Guldorand to be tried for one” baked into its founding document, and yet you have humans whom you just sort of have to go “yeah I don’t know what he did but he’s bad news, just look at the red text in his description”. This is especially notable because if you’re a pirate, Harper, Zhent, or anything else with a tag, you have to actually do a crime to be treated as a criminal, per the Founder’s Charter.

So why are things all of a sudden vibes-based when it comes to outcasts? It’s not an in-character legal designation, it is an OOC conceit, and yet there is always bleed-through. I cannot count the number of times the term “outcast” has came up in-character. I get that the onus is kind of on the outcast to figure out what they’re infamous for, but c‘mon.

[Floral Shoppe]

So I’ve sort of accepted the tag’s presence and its reason for being there; it’s clear that it’s sort of a compromise and not an ideal solution. Okay.

What is pretty goofy is you have a place like Guldorand that has “you have to commit a crime IN Guldorand to be tried for one” baked into its founding document, and yet you have humans whom you just sort of have to go “yeah I don’t know what he did but he’s bad news, just look at the red text in his description”. This is especially notable because if you’re a pirate, Harper, Zhent, or anything else with a tag, you have to actually do a crime to be treated as a criminal, per the Founder’s Charter.

So why are things all of a sudden vibes-based when it comes to outcasts? It’s not an in-character legal designation, it is an OOC conceit, and yet there is always bleed-through. I cannot count the number of times the term “outcast” has came up in-character. I get that the onus is kind of on the outcast to figure out what they’re infamous for, but c‘mon.

Well it's not suddenly, the outcast tag pre-dates Guldorand, and I'm pretty sure both of them are attempts to guide and correct player behavior... They're reactions to how outcasts would try to have the best of both worlds and to how surfacers, especially Cordor, would (usually) be zero tolerance to anything shifty, this was especially the case a while back.

So you look at these things now and wonder why they exist, they exist because they needed to exist at one point.