The outcast tag is a license to metagame.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

In the past the team has said "you can recognize outcasts because their faces have been on wanted posters" to justify the tag. Which means realistically, having an outcast tag would mean everyone would know their names too. Because they saw it on the wanted poster.

The roleplay surrounding outcasts also invites metagaming. I've watched people stand around Adelyn before because they broke her disguise, didn't know the character name and didn't know how to identify them, but saw the outcast tag and RP around that. It was extremely awkward.

Personally I try to not roleplay the outcast tag because it's so wonky. But now I'm being put into a position where I have to call it something. I'm opting with "men and women who live in the underdark," but a lot of people go with "marked outcast" like it's a tattoo like Sencliff pirates have. It may as well be "bright pink outcast badge".

The tag and the mechanics surrounding it should be changed to something more RPable. Or just remove the visibility of it all together. Arelith is full of people who like to play spy, let them investigate.

[find me in the future]

I agree that the outcast tag invites awkward scenarios. It frequently feels better to be vague.

I personally don't act on the outcast tag unless I know and/or have been informed of how the person has made an actual in-game track record for themselves. When individuals who have an Outcast tag are also known for doing things like helping attack settlements, set up ambushes for travelers, or otherwise have made a name for themselves in-game during the character's lifespan it's a lot easier because they've actively roleplayed, behaved, and played the part of Outcast. There's roleplay involved, and the criminal's behavior can be pinpointed from in-game instances for what it is.

But what about instances such as yours, where they don't know the person, don't know the history, and don't have somebody telling them that the person has done something horrible or criminal? I can sympathize. It falls into a situation no different than explaining the history and crimes of someone without the outcast tag for those around them- or, without someone to explain, going completely unaware.

As it stands, having the outcast tag is "distantly helpful" in that it shows that this person was a dangerous, wanted person- but without the history made in-game as described above, it does feel a bit lacking. How are they dangerous? Why are they wanted? What should the regular person know? How does the regular person know?

I like being able to react to things that are learned in-character, and have been done in-game. I similarly feel awkward when people try to react to things that happened off-island before character creation is over.

[Yensent]

How is RPing that you can see the outcast marks metagaming? I thought WYSIWYG. If your character can see the marks....then that's what you're getting, that this person is branded or marked in some way to not be sit for "proper" society.

[Ping14]

The roleplay surrounding outcasts also invites metagaming. I've watched people stand around Adelyn before because they broke her disguise, didn't know the character name and didn't know how to identify them, but saw the outcast tag and RP around that. It was extremely awkward.

Every tag in the game is to force RP out of those people that have those tags.
Outcasts and Pirates are made on character creation, Slave is a tag on a name so I'll leave that out. All other tags are gained ingame either thru class or position. Radiant heart can easily go around this by simply not wearing the ring.

The awkwardness is definitely something you should be feeling. You are an outcast actively hiding it, and when someone points it out - then it really should be awkward for the character aswell. Spies also work in two ways, there's also the counter espionage aspect of it. The disguise mechanic is a fun one when room is given by both sides, but it can be frustrating when you're in public as the "" marks places a special interest in your character.

Sadly tags can be difficult to discuss without talking about disguises
More on the disguise discussion here:
viewtopic.php?f=91&t=47044&hilit=disguise

Im not sure how disguise checks are made, but I usually just assume:

Code: Select all

{Soft Spot + [(Hard Spot/(Player Lvl + 3)]} + 1d20
VS
{Soft Perform + [Hard Perform/(Player LvL + 3)]} + 1d20
*With SOFT = equipments + Feats + Spells + STATs not exceeding 127 when Hard Skill points are added

The disguise rules are actually well written:
https://astrolabe.nwnarelith.com/rules
And it is well within the boundaries of the rules to make use of your outcast tag in help identifying you if the spotter wins the roll.

[Ork]

Tags are unearned. In all other avenues, you need to roleplay. A noble, for instance, needs roleplay to reinforce to others they are in fact a noble. A priest needs to roleplay in order for others to view them as a priest. Tags give your character information that has not been earned through roleplay.

It'd be nice if they were removed.

[Rei_Jin]

Suggestion: rather than having an “outcast” tag, in surface settlements the town crier system could announce that “the following individuals are wanted for crimes against the state, with a short description of each available with any guard” and then list by name all currently active outcast characters.”

This then allows for greater immersion, it means that if you break the disguise of an outcast and recognise their name you have a legitimate reason to know that they’re an outcast, and it brings the implementation of surfacers can know on sight who is an outcast and who is not, while UDers (who cannot see those tags currently) would have no reason to know if someone is an outcast or not.

Yes, I know the pronouncement may be long, but if the system only references characters that have logged in within the last 168 hours and are not deleted, it limits it.

[Aradin]

Tags are unearned. In all other avenues, you need to roleplay. A noble, for instance, needs roleplay to reinforce to others they are in fact a noble. A priest needs to roleplay in order for others to view them as a priest. Tags give your character information that has not been earned through roleplay.

It'd be nice if they were removed.

I've always felt this way as well. I don't think tags (pirate, outcast, etc.) do much for roleplay. Simply put, I don't think it's good for any new character to enter Arelith with a personal reputation among the Arelithian population. The outcast tag demands that other players respect it - but why should we? We don't know who that person is. We don't know what crimes they've done.

Sometimes I've seen outcasts put details of why they're an outcast in their description, stuff like "The brand on this person represents someone who has committed fratricide in Cormyr" or something like that, which I think should almost be a necessity if we're going to have tags at all. If the system is telling my character to perceive someone as an outcast, I'd at least like to know why, because that will shape how my character reacts to that knowledge.
Whether it's through town criers yelling out the nature of the crime, it being mandated that you include information in your description about why you're an outcast, whatever the implementation might be - I'd welcome it. For me personally, it's hard to engage with the outcast tag if that's all it is - a tag, and no other information. Even if my PC were brave enough to ask the outcast directly, the outcast is under no obligation to tell me. Even if my PC were curious enough to ask others about the outcast's crime, the only way they'd know is if they learned from the outcast. An outcast could tell exactly zero people their great big horrible backstory crime throughout the entirety of the character's existence but we would all nonetheless have to treat them like they're a dangerous criminal? It just feels like a big disconnect where the game mechanics are trying to ham-fistedly influence roleplay. IMO, just let people roleplay. The PCs who really are outcasts will earn that title through their in-game actions.

[RedGiant]

Keep in mind that you are choosing the outcast tag which, however your RP it, means your situation, your deeds, or even you yourself are /so/ recognizable and/or infamous that all of the following is mechanically true.

Can't become citizens of Surface settlements.
Can't vote in elections of Surface Settlements.
Cant own quarters, guild houses, boats and etc that are in or associated with Surface settlements. ((“Wilderness” quarters not associated with a settlement are able to be owned.))
Can't buy and sell from PC shops in Surface settlements. ((“Wilderness” shops not associated with a settlement are still usable.))
Can only use ships and carts to travel out of Surface settlements, not into them.
Can't take the Ink to become a pirate.

I think that the fact that every settlement recognizes you and that even the pirates won't take you on necessarily equates to a certain general level of notoriety.

To the original OP. Adelyn is well-known. She is an outcast. I still hear stories of her on multiple PCs with Cordor start. And your disguise was broken. Enough said.

If you want to change the tag to "infamous", sure I'm down. If you want to mandate a descriptive additive, okay. If you want to get rid of it or hide it? No way. This is literally what it is for.

[Preserver]

I believe an additional layer of awkwardness is added by the fact that the relevance of the Outcast tag is ICly expected to be embraced by all cultures, independently on context. My Mulhorandi PC who has just arrived on Arelith is expected to be able to understand the relevance of an outcast tag, just as my PC from Neverwinter, and the one from Chult.

The opposite point of view (why is my outcast PC known on the Archipelago?) is slightly less awkward because Outcasts are expected to be from Arelith (though the wiki say they are typically from Arelith, therefore the origin is not enforced - which gives room for Outcasts to be from Wa and still be recognized as Outcasts on Arelith).

All these, that appear like several little mini-strawman arguments, are in truth elements of the roleplay which become active the moment I as a lawful PC notice someone with an Outcast tag, yet I am explicitly foreign or I notice the PC is explicitly foreign, and am still expected to understand that they are a public threat.

Keep in mind that you are choosing the outcast tag which, however your RP it, means your situation, your deeds, or even you yourself are /so/ recognizable and/or infamous that all of the following is mechanically true.

This I see as awkward as well, because you are expected to have committed deeds that are so terrible that they warrant public ostracization before or around lvl 1 - and being lvl 1 is not merely a mechanical aspect, but it identifies the individual as someone novice in their adventuring career.
This is RP of course, we can justify anything, we can invent all sort of stories that work in some way or another. But I feel that the server's RP would benefit from the Outcast tag to be something to be earned through deeds during the character's lifetime, rather than being part of their background.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

To the original OP. Adelyn is well-known. She is an outcast. I still hear stories of her on multiple PCs with Cordor start. And your disguise was broken. Enough said.

So you are saying it's ok to metagame knowing someone's identity even if you've never met the character before, just because you've heard the name before?

[PowerWord Rage]

To the original OP. Adelyn is well-known. She is an outcast. I still hear stories of her on multiple PCs with Cordor start. And your disguise was broken. Enough said.

So you are saying it's ok to metagame knowing someone's identity even if you've never met the character before, just because you've heard the name before?

Notoriety to the point that all NPCs denied you means Names with actual wanted posters which include Features and Traits ( faces etc ) esle, NPCs can't know them.

You broke their outcast disguise, you basically know their name and notoriety even if you have not met them.
What is important here is not about knowing what he or she did in the past but the fact exist that he or she is so condemned evil that all authorities on surface deny them.

It's just like, your good buddy said this person appears on the wanted poster and is dangerous but didn't describe why. And when you do meet this person, common sense applies.

Enough said.

[-stick-]

I guess if you break a disguise and see the tag its possible to rp you have seen the face on a poster somewhere but if a player havent properly introduced knowing the name should be forbidden unless asked by a third party to scry the outcast individual by name at some earlier time.

[PowerWord Rage]

My understanding is, if you see the outcast tag, you effectively know their name but may not know what they did to earn the notoriety.
That should be the basis, because there's no reason every single npc on surface knows he/she is an outcast but we don't.

I'll usually RPed from there. If the player chose the outcast tag, they should have a script ready when discovered, either by trying to avoid or just rp out the circumference that made you an outcast.
Whether or not we chose to accept him/her depends on the actual circumstances.
And if you don't even have a script or proper story for being an outcast and yet chose an outcast...it's a mistake to begin with despite having read the introduction warning.

If I'm wrong on this path of understanding, perhaps a DM should assist to clarify.

Edit: I'll like to add on that there has never been a wanted poster in any civilization history that has a person face, features and description but without Names ( name or their so called nickname like Great Robber Bob or so they are known which of course, can't be implemented here due to limitations )

[RedGiant]

Power Word Rage summed it up nicely, but I would further add, such is your notoriety that is explicitly /not/ metagaming to RP your outcast status once your disguise is broken.

I'm down with renaming 'Outcast' as 'Infamous' or something similar, because that is mechanically what it is. This status does not confer anonymity. In fact, I would argue it confers exactly the opposite. I, for one, wish more people leaned into it, and I applaud those who put little one-liners in their description to guide the rest of us in ensuing RP.

E.g.

Who is that hooded hulk? scrutinizes

-Disguise broken, Description read

By the gods, boys, that's the Butcher of Skaljard!

[Dreams]

My understanding is, if you see the outcast tag, you effectively know their name but may not know what they did to earn the notoriety.

This is straight up metagaming. You don’t know their name because of the OOC floaty text above their head. The outcast tag is suggesting how NPCs react to this character.

It’s also a super confusing system, isn’t well described on the wiki and puts the onus on the Outcast to really fill in the gaps - which most do not. It is more commonly used as an Andunor-politics-access.

[PowerWord Rage]

My understanding is, if you see the outcast tag, you effectively know their name but may not know what they did to earn the notoriety.

This is straight up metagaming. You don’t know their name because of the OOC floaty text above their head. The outcast tag is suggesting how NPCs react to this character.

It’s also a super confusing system, isn’t well described on the wiki and puts the onus on the Outcast to really fill in the gaps - which most do not. It is more commonly used as an Andunor-politics-access.

I'll like to repeat again on my earlier post

Edit: I'll like to add on that there has never been a wanted poster in any civilization history that has a person face, features and description but without Names ( name or their so called nickname like Great Robber Bob or so they are known which of course, can't be implemented here due to limitations )

As I written earlier as well, if my understanding is incorrect, a DM does need to clarify.

Floaty name above a character is meant to be allowed to used on this situation because we only have this amount of time to spend on a game and it's not possible to memorize a wanted poster name nor should it be a priority for a game.

Let's quote another example about fame, I'm sure most people know and recognize who Michael Jackson is and actually will be amazed if anyone does not. Of course, there will be those we don't but everyone can agree that it's definitely minority.
Why would I quote such a famous star is because outcast tag is that glaring and hard if not impossible to miss once examined.

And finally, outcast tag isn't suggesting how NPC reacts but is clearly how NPC reacts

[Dreams]

Maybe this is something you should reach out to the DMs about instead of waiting for one to tell you you’re metagaming names.

[Twohand]

My understanding is, if you see the outcast tag, you effectively know their name

Absolutely not.

Now, about the outcast tag, I have always been critical of it and I strongly believe its existence is a detriment to the server. In fact, I support its complete removal in favor of allowing humans and half-orcs to spawn in the Underdark as they would in any other starting location, thus allowing them to earn an outcast status that is nothing else but a concept that exists only in roleplay and nowhere else.

I have also proposed internally a reputation system which would make the current monster rule and outcast mechanics obsolete. In this system, every character has a reputation rank (dynamic, goes up and down with certain actions and even choices made at character creation) with each of the surface settlements. From hostile to friendly, these ranks come with their pros and cons, and they would allow outcasts a much more interesting existence, one that gives them tools to even repair their reputation (all roleplayed, DM oversight being unnecessary) if they wish to follow that route. This is not set in stone, is yet to be approved too, but I wonder what people think of this idea.

[RedGiant]

I don't mind dynamism being added, but I personally would lament the loss of a starting option that does the things outcast currently does.

One of the complaints here is that the current status is unearned. Yet we have plenty of other examples of this from the Noble Award to the Epic Reputation Feat.

Again, I don't mind adding to the social mini-game that sort of already exists, but it would be neat if this can remain a starting option for those that are committed to infamy.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

My understanding is, if you see the outcast tag, you effectively know their name

Absolutely not.

Now, about the outcast tag, I have always been critical of it and I strongly believe its existence is a detriment to the server. In fact, I support its complete removal in favor of allowing humans and half-orcs to spawn in the Underdark as they would in any other starting location, thus allowing them to earn an outcast status that is nothing else but a concept that exists only in roleplay and nowhere else.

I have also proposed internally a reputation system which would make the current monster rule and outcast mechanics obsolete. In this system, every character has a reputation rank (dynamic, goes up and down with certain actions and even choices made at character creation) with each of the surface settlements. From hostile to friendly, these ranks come with their pros and cons, and they would allow outcasts a much more interesting existence, one that gives them tools to even repair their reputation (all roleplayed, DM oversight being unnecessary) if they wish to follow that route. This is not set in stone, is yet to be approved too, but I wonder what people think of this idea.

with the little bit of information you provided here, I love it. It sounds like a lot of work to get it right, but i definitely think in this instance the juice is worth the squeeze.

[Aradin]

I have also proposed internally a reputation system which would make the current monster rule and outcast mechanics obsolete. In this system, every character has a reputation rank (dynamic, goes up and down with certain actions and even choices made at character creation) with each of the surface settlements. From hostile to friendly, these ranks come with their pros and cons, and they would allow outcasts a much more interesting existence, one that gives them tools to even repair their reputation (all roleplayed, DM oversight being unnecessary) if they wish to follow that route. This is not set in stone, is yet to be approved too, but I wonder what people think of this idea.

Since you're interested in what people think, I'm (very) cautiously optimistic about this as a concept. As you point out, the notion of someone's reputation is a roleplayed thing. I think that any attempt at game-ifying a social concept like one's reputation is probably unnecessary. And that players will just learn the meta of this proposed system and min/max themselves into a perfect position where they get all the perks and none of the drawbacks, like slavery. Additionally, when you say this system is "entirely roleplayed" but "has no DM oversight" yet still has "(mechanical, presumably) pros and cons", I'm just not sure what that could even mean; my gut says you'd be doing something like giving settlement leader PCs new powers to determine someone's rank in the system, which I could see myself being on board for. I wonder how such a thing would interact with pariahs and exiles. Ultimately this is a very swinging-for-the-fences kind of take since I don't actually know any details.

[Irongron]

Outcast tag, as I've explained before (and is maybe on the wiki?) reflects a person that is shunned/not accepted by the relatively small populace of Arelith's main island.

This might be due to a deed - real or imagined, family/association or background. It is up to the player in question to see decide their own story.

It does not oblige the non-outcast player characters to be hostile or prejudice, but does indicate that when upon the main isle the locals recognize and reject the individual. Player characters are for the most part (but not always) immigrants to the isle, but see the tag as an indication that the locals are reacting badly to that person. UDers don't see the tag, because they possess no local knowledge of the surface communities.

Outcasts themselves are not immigrants and start in Andunor because they have been driven away.

While the system is by no means perfect it exists as a means to allow a human community to flourish in Andunor without it being overrun, and to maintain the division between 'monsters' and the surface. Removing it is would mean Andunor being overrun with edgy humans (remember outcasts pay a pretty hefty price for that), and the line between monsters and not being severely diminished.

Neither of which I want.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

So the outcast tag means everyone will know the character's name and who they are?

[Irongron]

So the outcast tag means everyone will know the character's name and who they are?

Not at all. Only that they can see the reaction of the local populace.

[Ork]

I think the player misconception and license to metagame should remove this tag. The behavior is so pervasive it'd be difficult too eliminate. There's got to be another way to do this, maybe even having NPCs in Andunor treat non-outcast characters differently if its intention is to keep humans from overrunning Andunor.