Arelith

EDK no longer being an auto-include feat is an improvement.

EDK was disgustingly strong, more so in PvE than PvP.
The Dracolich could solo the Titan's Ascent bosses with just some healing kits as aid.

Here's something to consider, As people seem to dislike EDK dropping a Dragon, and it basically being a more offence oriented Gate now.

Why not change it entirely? Forget it being a temporary Drop summon, and replace it with a Summon accessible via Epic Spell Focuses, which can be swapped between. Giving a thematic to each, and possibly -streamed

Conjuration : A Monolithic Elemental, They are here already and are strong. With on average 2 ab less than the current Dragons, but with vulnerabilities of their own.

Transmutation : A Golem of somekind, or for druids a Treant?

I'd rather a stronger summon or one with different uses than Summon creature IX than a temporary drop. Mummy dust already provides necromancers/Palemasters with strong summons, Why not have EDK give the same thing?

As GS + EDK (bbod etc.) was pure cheese both in PVE and PVP, I think this was overdue. Thanks for the change!

Just an opinion, especially with the recent UMD-changes, personally I’d welcome it if mummy dust was included in this. Between three buffed up summons, they shouldn’t be ignored when dealing with high-end summons. They’re absolutely enough of a distraction for a caster in GS to do their thing.

I’ve always felt mummy dust is the actual go-to choice for a caster, they last long, have DR, regenerate, bodyblock, have crit-immunity and good damage (with three of them combined at least).

Does this mean that draco liches are much weaker also?

... can us casters that didn’t want to follow the one path of conjurations that seemed to be the only thing ‘build worthy’ get cookies haha
Kinda seems the only way to build a mage these days is pure conjuration, so I like the nerf, even if it means my characters one decent defence spell has become moot.

It definitely needed a nerf. Making a spellcaster without either EDK or Mummy dust (sometimes even both) was shooting yourself in the foot. It's still looking viable as a more offensive shotgun summon (But I'd seriously advocate reducing its size so it doesn't get cucked by terrain) and other summons are the more go to for other situations.

My big worry is that if Mummy dust isn't also looked at, it might become the 100% better choice between EDK and mummy dust.

I'm really amazed that people keep asking for nerfs after the last couple months on Arelith.

So, in that vein...
Let's go back to a lvl 20 server, with no weapon allowed greater that +3. Surely our low magic roots is the best way to achieve balance.

RedGiant wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 12:23 pm I'm really amazed that people keep asking for nerfs after the last couple months on Arelith.

So, in that vein...
Let's go back to a lvl 20 server, with no weapon allowed greater that +3. Surely our low magic roots is the best way to achieve balance.

If we're being hyperbolic with no basis in reality; Let's not nerf OP things, let's instead just open up level 40 and allow +10 items for everyone.

sarithia wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:56 am ... can us casters that didn’t want to follow the one path of conjurations that seemed to be the only thing ‘build worthy’ get cookies haha
Kinda seems the only way to build a mage these days is pure conjuration, so I like the nerf, even if it means my characters one decent defence spell has become moot.

What are you talking about? Wizards have gotten TONS of brand new spells in the last few weeks, like avascular mass, iceberg, and scorching ray.

"One decent defense spell...." You're an epic wizard and you seriously think you have only one decent spell? Please... Please... Please ask on the forums and discord for all the good spells, strategies, and tricks that wizards can do.

What are you talking about? Wizards have gotten TONS of brand new spells in the last few weeks, like avascular mass, iceberg, and scorching ray.

Yeah, it was a dumb af comment written when I was half asleep. Casters have had a ton of cookies, but typically, I think I was aiming for a comment on conjuration or evocation being really the only paths I can think of that are powerful for a sorcerer class disregarding any cross overs with Blackguard or Paladin, but that strays from the point of EDK being nerfed. Either way, I agree with it, and I like that it got nerfed. It was ridiculously powerful.

suddenly when his build is in the question
we need to reconsider the nerf as a whole

I remember EDK lich as being rather weak, But then again I only used it against bosses** and my character not being an amazing wizard but basicly a sneak that just Hips'd and let mummies and dragon lichs do the work.

**I basicly used the against dragons, Back then they beated up my EDK lich, I had to use mummies to kill it afterwards cause I'd be flat on my arse if I stood by it healing it with kits.

I currently got another EDK lich summoner in the make that can't cast past 1st circle and it's going to be a hard journey.

Honestly, If you want to go the path of EDK are to OP; My suggestion:

Keep them as lvl 16 palemaster feat, But make sure they are lich dragons and the palemaster can not learn any other dragon streams.

Make them greater award for Wizards etc.

(I know none of you are going to like my suggestion)

EDK is still good. It can't solo PCs and bosses now while you hide. No, it won't be changed in the near future; there is just no reason to change it further. Though if it is still too strong, we'll adjust it more.

This is a beyond reasonable change.

Xerah wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:19 pm EDK is still good. It can't solo PCs and bosses now while you hide. No, it won't be changed in the near future; there is just no reason to change it further. Though if it is still too strong, we'll adjust it more.

This is a beyond reasonable change.

It was too strong. Good change. Still a powerful summon in its own right.

30/25/20/15
1-6+9
+2d6 (Divine)
+2d6 (Positive)
(16-20/x3)

vs

True Seeing
Freedom
36/31/26/21
1-8+23 (16-20/x3)

Hard choice.

Tarkus the dog wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:45 pm 30/25/20/15
1-6+9
+2d6 (Divine)
+2d6 (Positive)
(16-20/x3)

vs

True Seeing
Freedom
36/31/26/21
1-8+23 (16-20/x3)

Hard choice.

If those are the respective stats of a gate summon vs EDK currently, I don't see what the problem is. It's still an enormous improvement over gate.

6 AB, far more consistent (and slightly higher average) damage that essences can't block, same exact crit range/multiplier, and it has bioware TS and freedom. Isn't it also STILL tankier than gate, as well?

It seems to me it's still a great summon, it just isn't "summon it and win any battle" material anymore. Which we shouldn't want it to be.

It is an upgrade, yes. But I am not wasting an epic feat on it anymore. Gate is good enough. If they start nerfing them across the board it might be "good" again compared to the others but as things stand with it now not really that good.

Not saying it wasn't OP, as I think all summons need to be toned down, however you need to give mages something to do. Standing around waiting for the boss before 'imma firin ma laza' can be a little dull.

Scylon wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:00 pm It is an upgrade, yes. But I am not wasting an epic feat on it anymore.

This is about where I'm at, and I think were some others are as well. I'm not against nerfing EDK, I'm not against nerfing other summons, but I am against nerfing EDK to be not worth the feat, while keeping other summons the same.

A lot of this really goes back to earlier concerns expressed about transparency regarding the upcoming rebalancing efforts. If I rebuilt my caster three days ago, I would have taken EDK and now regretted it. If I rebuild my caster today, I wouldn't take EDK. If I rebuild my caster three days from now, will EDK be worth it again because there will be future updates to other summons that make EDK more useful in comparison?

Rebuilding your character right now is a really risky decision, because with all the changes going on and not a lot of information about what those changes are going to be, any build decisions that are good today might be garbage tomorrow, and vice versa.

There will always be changes to balance. Why build any character if your view is that maybe things won't be as optimal a day from now?

Xerah wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:19 pm There will always be changes to balance. Why build any character if your view is that maybe things won't be as optimal a day from now?

We all know that Arelith isn't undergoing slight balance tweaks right now, but massive balance overhauls. This isn't the difference between EDK becoming a little better or a little worse, or a class slightly shifting in abilities. UMD, lore, EDK, rods, spells, etc., are all going through a huge upheaval.

When it's druids, or monks, or Wild Mages, everyone knows that changes are coming. All of these changes are sudden, and dramatic, and we still don't really know anything. I think it's completely reasonable to want some kind of roadmap to be able to gauge how broken your build is going to be by the time this huge revamp is finished.

Subutai wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:15 pm

Scylon wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:00 pm It is an upgrade, yes. But I am not wasting an epic feat on it anymore.

This is about where I'm at, and I think were some others are as well. I'm not against nerfing EDK, I'm not against nerfing other summons, but I am against nerfing EDK to be not worth the feat, while keeping other summons the same.

A lot of this really goes back to earlier concerns expressed about transparency regarding the upcoming rebalancing efforts. If I rebuilt my caster three days ago, I would have taken EDK and now regretted it. If I rebuild my caster today, I wouldn't take EDK. If I rebuild my caster three days from now, will EDK be worth it again because there will be future updates to other summons that make EDK more useful in comparison?

Rebuilding your character right now is a really risky decision, because with all the changes going on and not a lot of information about what those changes are going to be, any build decisions that are good today might be garbage tomorrow, and vice versa.

I agree, EDK needed a nerf, and i'd even be fine with the other summons getting nerfed too.
I would however add something to that. If a nerf this drastic across the board happened then i'd also want to see mundanes means to just removing it from the equation with a single ability in PvP removed also, that includes the new WoF rods and 50 Lore investment WoF scrolls.

Whether that means not giving them access to WoF at all, making it a cleric only spell like how GSanc can't be scribed, or adding a save to the dismissal part doesn't matter.
If summons are going to be hit with the nerf hammer so hard then their threat in PvP will no longer be as big an issue as it currently apparently is, and mage players should get that part of their playstyle back as an option!!

Summons either need to be strong enough to make up for the casters glaring weaknesses and have a hard counter in PvP, or weak enough so they're not such a huge threat in PvP but without that hard counter. Even nerfed they'd still be plenty useful in PvE, so that's not really a huge deal.

Change is good, lets be clear on that. No change and lack of innovation leads to the server stagnating. I think part of the reason this server is so popular is the efforts of the dev team to keep building on it, keep adding etc. However the reality is, it bites to feel these nerfs, I know as my Wizard is my only character and because I have the opportunity to relevel, I will. This won't always be the case however and it will be just a case of "oh well, I need to think of something else".

All in all I like the idea where the server is heading, though not the order or band aid fixes. The wallop to dragons and the addition rods seem to contradict the previous changes. However moving forward I'm feeling reasonably confident we will be in a good place.

Edit to avoid double post

Orian_666 wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:26 pm I agree, EDK needed a nerf, and i'd even be fine with the other summons getting nerfed too.
I would however add something to that. If a nerf this drastic across the board happened then i'd also want to see mundanes means to just removing it from the equation with a single ability in PvP removed also, that includes the new WoF rods and 50 Lore investment WoF scrolls.

Whether that means not giving them access to WoF at all, making it a cleric only spell like how GSanc can't be scribed, or adding a save to the dismissal part doesn't matter.
If summons are going to be hit with the nerf hammer so hard then their threat in PvP will no longer be as big an issue as it currently apparently is, and mage players should get that part of their playstyle back as an option!!

Summons either need to be strong enough to make up for the casters glaring weaknesses and have a hard counter in PvP, or weak enough so they're not such a huge threat in PvP but without that hard counter. Even nerfed they'd still be plenty useful in PvE, so that's not really a huge deal.

I agree with this completely.

Irongron wrote: Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:58 pm The change to EDK stats is actually unrelated to the recent updates, but has been in the works for some time. and based far more around their PVE invulnerability than PvP. Given how many hostile spawns on Arelith are built, that level of DR made them essentially invulnerable to almost everything.

I spend a lot of time monitoring how dungeons are handled, and these summons were the one-stop-shop to defeat some of Arelith's most powerful monsters, creatures that should be defeated by a concerted group effort of PCs rather than a summon while the actual players hang back and watch.

I think this puts them in a good place.

But this seems largely targeted to pvp.
Gsanc is mostly used in pvp
And every conjurer uses the elementals for tanking dungeons. The EDK is used in scary situations and boss fights due to its very low duration. Also, it didn't even do that well against recent changes on bosses.

Scylon wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:36 pm Change is good, lets be clear on that.

Change is good, only when the changes are good, lets be clear on that. Change for the sake of change is how we got mumble rap