Arelith

I've spent the last 6 months on the surface, but before that was a good few years of UD play, and, i was actually so happy when i finally returned to the surface.
I can't speak for the current state of affairs, but alot of the main points OP has of the UD, all ring true to me. Especially the points on conflict and stagnation - Whilst they may seem to contradict each other, they are accurate.

I found, and this is not meant to be a shot at anyone, too many people didn't know how to handle conflict RP without resorting to Killbash as the ultimate solution. And it didnt take much to get there. As people mentioned, most characters are overly serious and brooding, to the point where people who wanted to have a laugh and be less serious characters were killed for doing so.

Admittedly, this is my experience, and not a hard fact, but ... my point in 10 words or less is:
Too many people see UD races as an excuse to PVP

11 words. Damn.

Arigard wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 6:55 pm

Skibbles wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 6:18 pmThe outcast reward lock started March 22nd, almost exactly as quarantine began in the US and I think a little earlier in other parts of the world. Yes we have more monsters now, but we also have over twenty million people without jobs or reduced hours stuck at home - and that's just the US. I really don't think the outcast change has suddenly made more people play monsters. Covid did, and it will end one day, and the UD could be left reeling.

Why would this only effect the UD? If people stop playing the game they stop playing the game, period.

The Underdark is the base server for a lot of players, me included. You talk like it's an afterthought for everyone. There are a variety of players in Arelith and not everyone has a 'human centric at all costs' viewpoint. I don't even have a human in my vault and I doubt I ever will. They are level 30 monster races, or Underdark characters. There's a lot of players who main monster races and characters and there's no indication from player numbers that the UD is somehow dwindling. As of this post it has 60 players just like distant shores and the surface and earlier it had the most players on any server.

I know for me at least, I started playing an UD char to get away from the surface style day to day RP. I wanted more conflict, plotting, subterfuge and that's what the UD brought. The Underdark is not the surface, it has its own rules, atmosphere and style, trying to turn it into 'surface light' where it's basically exactly the same because everyone is playing nice-nice with each other regardless of race, background and are a human using the systems to just avoid having to make any sacrifices at all, creates a much worse atmosphere and makes Underdark RP deeply confusing from what i've seen. It's a trade city, but it still isn't the surface and when every other character is a human, elf or surface character slave having free reign of the city to say and do what they like it starts to get a little out of hand. That's where we were at and that's why restrictions were brought in and so far from what i've seen it's had a positive effect.

It only affects the UD in my comment because this is a thread about the UD and it's the UD that has historically died in the past. I don't need to worry about the surface because people have always played there and this thread isn't about it in the first place.

If it wasn't obvious I'm talking about new players, or old ones returning, artificially inflating numbers across arelith due to covid.

They split out a fourth new server on March 31st (barely a week after US quarantine!) to handle the massive covid influx. I don't know how many times I need to repeat that the numbers right now are *artificially inflated due to a temporary epidemic*. So looking at them now is plain misleading. It's almost my entire point.

The UD used to fit in cozy with the city and planes server when we had outcasts. We will eventually go back that, only this time we'll be absent a substantial chunk of slaves and outcasts. Those numbers may not be pretty, and low numbers can quickly beget lower numbers.

The rest of your post seems to take an alarmingly low opinion of players and a tremendously hyperbolic stance on what Andunor actually was. No comment.

Wuthering wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 10:47 pm Don't forget it also takes three feats to get the ability and there aren't many other benefits to ESF Divination.

Are you sure about that. . . - John Cena

I think meme boi has hit it on the head though, there is only Andunor. I've played UD for years now and its all very centralized, yet on the surface 'Oh, not much going on in Cordor, might walk to Guldorand and stop by bendir on the way'. The UD is big, but it lacks location, if you want to RP in the UD you have one place to be currently, Andunor, yes its broken down into districts and different factions are in different districts, but there is a hub, and that is the loiter spot. If I could suggest anything, it would be to develop the trading post, make it more of a settlement than a portal location. Have it offer writs past the shadowhaunts, there's a bunch of transitions past there that have unique enemies, but no writs to kill them?

It kind of reminds me of the old gnoll tribe camp you'd have to pass through from the lower portal chamber to get to pit town, a healthy middle for delegates from the surface to meet traders from the UD, and not have to head into the dead center of Andunor to be bodied for daring to get some RP going.

Yes I think outcasts should be kept behind a reward, but I also do agree it is limited because not everyone wants to play a monster race, but a lot of people want to play an evil character, and the UD surrounds you with like-minded people to work with and bounce ideas off.

So admittedly I did skim through most of these comments and wasn't going to respond since it seems the topic has wound down, but there is some comments I'd like address.

For reference, I play 'Krukt' - a kobold. I am just returning after a bit of a break. I also have a secondary character that I don't play as much that is drow.

First - Cliques; I don't see any problem with this in an RP environment. There are many different groups that cater to different play-styles. From my own experience, I've only ever been restricted from interaction with such a group that made RP sense. I shouldn't expect a Drow House to be eager to deal with a Kobold that is openly against the enslavement of his own kind. Nor as a drow, should I expect a tribe of goblins to be eager involving me in their tribal discussions. I think it comes down to what you play and where you look for your interaction. If you see a group of Drow and want to be apart of that group - playing a drow OR submitting yourself to slavery are good options to start with. The player of Ikarus (Sorry I forgot your forum name) said shy people will have a difficult time getting involved with rooted groups. For my part I do instill a desire to involve others in my group and personal play, that adhere to my character RP. As a kobold, that's involving other kobolds. I have also noticed a similar approach by other power groups from the outside looking in. So I know it's there, just a matter of finding it and not expecting the culture of a group to conform to your gameplay.

Second- Stagnation; I haven't seen this to any overt point. From my opinion it is often IC comments about the status quo and how it should be shaken up. But to assume just because you don't see it by mulling about in the hub, doesn't mean there isn't a great deal of intrigue, conflict and change happening behind the scenes. If you're not a driving factor for one of these things, and aren't pulled into by another - chances are you'll think the region is stagnant. Until those plots come to fruition and there's a lot of change all at once. One good example of that is the changing hands of Greyport. That didn't happen in one day - it was weeks of dealings and RP between multiple groups that then divvied up the district when it changed hands. Likewise, groups are constantly malleable in their dealings and diplomatic relationships. Just because you may not see it by hanging around the portal in the hub, doesn't mean it isn't there.

Third - Oversight; As stated by a DM, there is far and away more people playing than there are DM staff and from my experience on Arelith, it has always been player driven interactions and plots. There's absolutely nothing saying a DM need put you on a path and tell you what is expected of you - DM interaction should, in my opinion, be a rare and cherished thing. Not expected just because of a rank you managed to win in a popularity contest. (Referring to expectations of having Freth or Claddath? be expected to interact with you just because you hold rank in a Temple) Arelith feels more like a sandbox mmo than a themepark. As such, my only suggestion to people that may think they need that DM guidance to have a goal would be to find a PC that seems to be doing things and get involved. Just because they can't reward you with RPR, doesn't mean you wont have fun doing it.

TL; DR - I think we're making a mountain out of a molehill in regards to many concerns, but if I can help IC'ly - get at a kobold.

The dynamic on the surface has moved towards individuals considering themselves 'Cordorian', and 'Citizens' above and beyond race. I would be curious to know how many Underdarkers consider themselves 'Andunorian', and a 'Citizen' similarly.

My point being Andunor represents civilisation in an otherwise notorious setting - the Underdark.

Would it not be remiss to appreciate the city more because of this? I would have thought there would be stronger incentive to play the 'Underdark PC vs Environment' angle.

If the city inhabitants are too inwardly focused on internecine conflict, it could be perceived as an IC weakness.

I think the elephant in the room would be that it's a mistake to make an underdark city Skullport. Make a Skull Port. Enough people play this game now, it's on PS4, Xbox One, and PC. Make a Skull Port, and have Andunor be an Underdark city like it is.

You were just told that there won't be another city. Sorry, that was in another thread.

Andunor is more like Skullport than an underdark city and that is by design.