STR Melee is bad, please buff

[Seven Sons of Sin]

Wow.

So much is wrong in this thread that I don't know where to begin, especially those figures on "str melee" AC and the anecdotal reasoning used to justify them.

I think would rather pull out my fingernails than comment further, so I'm just going to leave this thread and let it run its course.

Can you just comment for the purpose of sharing knowledge? It would be important to readers if the majority of the thread is perhaps off-kilter.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

my eyes are hurting.

Points missed about str over dex (sorry if someone said this already.. again eyes were starting to hurt):

-str build can completely dump dex and have it buffed to 12 for the max ac for armor allowing them to minmax easier
-when doing a divine build, you need at least 13 str for power attack
-str based have better discipline and uses larger weapons (if i were to do anything about the meta, id nerf the living daylights out of quarterstaff as one of the inherent weaknesses of being dex based is having smaller weapons vs disarm, yet quarterstaff laughs in all languages of superiority)
-against an opponent with lowered ac, via truestrike +knockdown or against various meme builds, etc. A strength character will shine much better.
-str builds are actually EASIER to equip properly because you don't have to worry about sneaking in strength dex and con on all your items since a dex build still benefits from str items to have more damage

A pure fighter duergar (pure simplicity)

can end with str of with 44 str (32 + 12) ( base 21 + 7 level ups and + 4 epic feats since we get get all the other feats via fighter bonus feats)

ab:
25 bab
17 str
4 feats
4 from axe
3 from fighter
= 53 ab before we do any additional buffs such as bless. Improved knockdown will be a serious threat to dex character who did not take epic focus discipline as they will get a massive burst of damage on them when they get knocked on their arse.

*EDIT*
ac = 48 (forgot about armor skin) with minimum subpar buffing and no combat expertise and no dodge ac
9 shield ( tower + 3 + fighter)
14 armor
6 helm
dodge?
natural armor + 3 (could be higher)
+ 1 dex
+ 3 tumble
+ 10 base
just by adding haste and improved combat expertise we hit 62 ac without even having more than 3 natural armor (which we can do) or dodge ac (which we can do) or stuff like bardic song (which we can do) or other buffs I can not think of right no. Without a bard or even divine shield, a str character can reach 65 AC

said warrior only have to worry about str and con on his items in terms of stat enchantments. He also get plus 3 str from figther and saves on some enchantment slots.

There are a few ridiculous dex builds out there (again I blame qaurterstaffs), but dex is not inherently better. A divine ac character can reach even higher ac, the numbers of a fully buffed cleric STRENGTH based cleric casting divine shield competes with some of the highest possible ac in the game.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Wow.

So much is wrong in this thread that I don't know where to begin, especially those figures on "str melee" AC and the anecdotal reasoning used to justify them.

I think would rather pull out my fingernails than comment further, so I'm just going to leave this thread and let it run its course.

Can you just comment for the purpose of sharing knowledge? It would be important to readers if the majority of the thread is perhaps off-kilter.

I agree with Dr. B

It feels like arelith mechanics amnesia, I wrote a post that will hopefully enlightend the situation a bit.

[jomonog]

I think there is actually a good balance at the moment. There is probably really only one outlier dex build which is ranger 27 monk 3 which achieves high end numbers on AB/AC/APR/average damage (at least 50AB and 66-67 ac pre expertise by my calcs). All the other high end dex builds im aware of have weaknesses with damage outside of sneaks, lower AB or other downside. If a single build is skewing the meta too much though I'd rather look at nerfing that build slightly in some way instead of an across the board buff to an unknown number of competing builds.

Essentially what youre trying to achieve is a situation where the average expected damage per round is the same in a hypotethical simplied fight between an average dex melee versus an average strength melee. Average expected damage per round would be attacker's AB as a percentage to hit defender's AC multiplied by average damage output multiplied by APR. You'd have to work out the average dex build AB/AC/Damage/APR by looking at a sample of say 4 or 5 representative builds and then do the same for the same number of strength builds.

If there was any inbalance, I agree it would best be addressed by adding some DR onto heavy armor to make the expected damage equations balance out. Its going to be much lower than 10/- though is my educated guess, if there is any inbalance at all. I wouldnt muck around with AB, AC, Damage or APR as these already seem pretty finely tuned.

I also really like the idea in any event of re-jigging overwhelming critical and adding a new balanced devastating critical feat gated at 25+ strength which could increase damage in a useful way to give a real incentive to build around strength. That would just open up a new line of builds which is always a fun thing.

[godhand-]

No disrespect but i think alot of comments about builds on the forums seem to live in a bubble of hypothetical maths and not how things play out in the real game. And to demonstrate this, i'd like to counter this whole sentiment with some real case examples:

If STR melee is so bad, why have STR melee builds won all the last cordor tournaments for.... 3 or 4 tournaments in a row?
We're putting STR melee builds against DEX spellsword monks and all of that and guess who's come out on top each time?

Strength is in a good place, and there are so many ways to build for it. You might trade out AC, but hey with a scythe that crits for ~250-300 you only need to get one or two 20 rolls to win a fight.

Everything isn't as cut and dry and the numbers make them out to be is all i'm saying.

Because this was div builds? But i'll be glad to fight with this builds on PGCC.

none were divine builds.

[Anomandaris]

Says facts, drops mic

Read his post. Seriously.

[Rico_scorpion]

I understand the need to compare things fairly and all the minmaxers expert jousting their arguments in the only context of "PVP + level 30 + optimized/perfect game knowledge + perfectly buffed", as in, "compare perfect potential". So if the topic is pvp, alright, ok, why not, a bit "hypothetical" but I get it.

But there's a few things that these threads ALWAYS forget and honestly I feel that is a problem, even more if it has a chance to influence the devs:

- Most players spend most of their time levelling, not level 30
- Most players spend most of their time in PVE, not in PVP
- Most players will not spend their life fully buffed at all times, if only to save consumables
- Most players will play non optimally (notable reasons: lack of experience, lack of cold blood in pvp/tough pve, etc)
- Lots of players either make unoptimal choices in favor of rp/flavor/utility in their builds, AND/OR make mistakes, AND/OR make conscious suboptimal choices just to not be a metaclone (weapon choice for example, going two handed for example, etc)

So once you consider the above, 80% of the arguments jousted here are irrelevant (to an extent) for the most common experience of the average guy. Which is our playerbase. Not high end pvp at 30 between two experts.

Please consider what it is, to level a str character, on this server when you remove what seems obvious to the discussion: being superbuffed is not obvious, using a shield is not obvious, you might not have the coins to have the best gear for your level, IE is not an option until level 15+ or your ab will be horrid (unless you're guarding someone, but then the discussion is completely biased again), etc... then go to the forest of despair and enjoy not being able to charge in, getting shredded, having no tools in your kit beside KD, etc etc etc

Note that I'm a minmaxer that doesn't play at high epic levels AND that doesn't do pvp anymore. So i'm already not the guy described above even if i'm clearly not a metaexpert, and still, this typical guy above exists, maybe not on the forums, even less in those threads, but really I doubt that the most of our playerbase are hardcore minmaxers that sit at 30 to pvp.

And that's also why, once we talk again of player experience, let me say again: str chars (divine excluded), balanced or not, have little to no meaningful progression choices both for variety, power, and utility. Which makes their progression dull (barb excluded).

[AstralUniverse]

I kinda see now how buffing addy full plate by 1 ac is a problem because of divine builds who need no buff. Its kind of annoying because divine builds arent supposed to even use full plate, they arent supposed to have enough stat slot on their gear to have +7/8 to three stats AND have full plate. They fact that they do, prevents well deserved buffs to deeper str builds with no divine dip.

[Jencent]

none were divine builds.

Really? I wasn't on this tournier, coz my main was exiled. Who was a winner?

- Most players spend most of their time levelling, not level 30
- Most players spend most of their time in PVE, not in PVP
- Most players will not spend their life fully buffed at all times, if only to save consumables
- Most players will play non optimally (notable reasons: lack of experience, lack of cold blood in pvp/tough pve, etc)
- Lots of players either make unoptimal choices in favor of rp/flavor/utility in their builds, AND/OR make mistakes, AND/OR make conscious suboptimal choices just to not be a metaclone (weapon choice for example, going two handed for example, etc)

In this case i can say only one thing: Git Gud.

[TooManyPotatoes]

none were divine builds.

Really? I wasn't on this tournier, coz my main was exiled. Who was a winner?

If I may comment as one of the winners of the most recent tournament.

The winning team was two barb/wm and a battlecleric. Can you feel the synergy?

The rules allowed only minimal prebuffing, but this included magic vestments, zoo buffs. Not even barkskin was allowed.

The meant that the overall ac of all characters was lower - This benefits STR over DEX (and was offset on this teams side by cleric vestments)

The arena is a tight space, allowing for better use of true strike pot spam. Characters are easily cornered. - This benefits STR over DEX.

Battle cleric opened with WoF which blinded everyone and allowed the barbs just long enough to take down the most high value target in the confusion. Stronger heals also allowed the barbs to get down to near death, then turn the tide suddenly - surprise is always your best asset in pvp.

A lot was in our favour, and despite perceptions of others, it was on a knife-edge.

One of the biggest issues I've encountered pvping dex characters is they can more easily run away through a bunch of transitions, then turn and pick off characters as the rest of the team lags behind. And with monk APR and a staff, you better believe that poor strength character he's picking off is going down - fast. Divine shield will have run out during the chase, after all. The best build for this? Ranger/monk, obviously.

It's easy to theorycraft, but the reality is that the dex characters can more easily choose their battles. If the dex character dies to a strength character, it's surely by their own error.

My thoughts:

In later PvE, strength characters have to accept that unless they have divine shield, they need someone guarding them. You've chosen the support role to the AC tank. Congratulations! Go find some friends!

PvP: The ranger/monk needs a look at. Too much damage and AC for a dex character - there needs to be a trade. Otherwise I've sort of no issue with the dex builds. Sure, they'll win most of the time on paper, but their damage is low enough (or they rely on sneaks from hide) that the str character can rely reasonably well on the healing potions at their disposal, and maybe land a lucky crit to turn the tide and panic the opponent.

With buffs, the strength character is often the better base to work with, so keep making them and let me ward you!

[The Rambling Midget]

If STR melee is so bad, why have STR melee builds won all the last cordor tournaments for.... 3 or 4 tournaments in a row?
We're putting STR melee builds against DEX spellsword monks and all of that and guess who's come out on top each time?

I don't see the tournaments as a good metric, for two reasons.

The ones I've seen haven't been won by melee builds, they've been won by just one build: Barbarian. The extremely tight arena space gives them a tremendous advantage, because they can sweep the whole floor with fear aura, and close in on anyone in seconds.

Their biggest problems have consistently been with anything in stealth, since that allows near absolute control of the field. Without the restrictions of the arena, the stealthers would have even more freedom, and a near guarantee of being able to either displace or kill their opponent, or disengage unharmed. One Shadowdancer nearly ripped the most recent winning team apart, alone, and it was only copious healing that allowed them to survive.

[Jencent]

none were divine builds.

Really? I wasn't on this tournier, coz my main was exiled. Who was a winner?

If I may comment as one of the winners of the most recent tournament.

The winning team was two barb/wm and a battlecleric. Can you feel the synergy?

The rules allowed only minimal prebuffing, but this included magic vestments, zoo buffs. Not even barkskin was allowed.

The meant that the overall ac of all characters was lower - This benefits STR over DEX (and was offset on this teams side by cleric vestments)

The arena is a tight space, allowing for better use of true strike pot spam. Characters are easily cornered. - This benefits STR over DEX.

Battle cleric opened with WoF which blinded everyone and allowed the barbs just long enough to take down the most high value target in the confusion. Stronger heals also allowed the barbs to get down to near death, then turn the tide suddenly - surprise is always your best asset in pvp.

A lot was in our favour, and despite perceptions of others, it was on a knife-edge.

One of the biggest issues I've encountered pvping dex characters is they can more easily run away through a bunch of transitions, then turn and pick off characters as the rest of the team lags behind. And with monk APR and a staff, you better believe that poor strength character he's picking off is going down - fast. Divine shield will have run out during the chase, after all. The best build for this? Ranger/monk, obviously.

It's easy to theorycraft, but the reality is that the dex characters can more easily choose their battles. If the dex character dies to a strength character, it's surely by their own error.

My thoughts:

In later PvE, strength characters have to accept that unless they have divine shield, they need someone guarding them. You've chosen the support role to the AC tank. Congratulations! Go find some friends!

PvP: The ranger/monk needs a look at. Too much damage and AC for a dex character - there needs to be a trade. Otherwise I've sort of no issue with the dex builds. Sure, they'll win most of the time on paper, but their damage is low enough (or they rely on sneaks from hide) that the str character can rely reasonably well on the healing potions at their disposal, and maybe land a lucky crit to turn the tide and panic the opponent.

With buffs, the strength character is often the better base to work with, so keep making them and let me ward you!

Looks like arena was made for fighters.

[AstralUniverse]

Not all arenas are the same anymore.

[TooManyPotatoes]

If STR melee is so bad, why have STR melee builds won all the last cordor tournaments for.... 3 or 4 tournaments in a row?
We're putting STR melee builds against DEX spellsword monks and all of that and guess who's come out on top each time?

I don't see the tournaments as a good metric, for two reasons.

The ones I've seen haven't been won by melee builds, they've been won by just one build: Barbarian. The extremely tight arena space gives them a tremendous advantage, because they can sweep the whole floor with fear aura, and close in on anyone in seconds.

Their biggest problems have consistently been with anything in stealth, since that allows near absolute control of the field. Without the restrictions of the arena, the stealthers would have even more freedom, and a near guarantee of being able to either displace or kill their opponent, or disengage unharmed. One Shadowdancer nearly ripped the most recent winning team apart, alone, and it was only copious healing that allowed them to survive.

+1

Well played by that hin.

[Jagel]

Str/dps might need an endgame feat. Dex has stuff like blinding speed and e-dodge .
A look at overwhelming crit/dev crit might be worth a try. They have feat and stat reqs that means you will sacrifice feats and will have to pump str to get them.

Applying debuffs/vulnurability on critical hits is one way to proceed. Another is to make a % chance per hit for -something- to happen to a melee target to avoid this being an indirect PM buff. Maybe PMs should be a seperate case, not sure just how strong they are these days.

More DI on addy-armor or making adamantium plate physical immunity 10% instead of .. piercing as it is now? Helmet 10 % bludg, 5% slash, shield 10 % slash and 5 % piercing or some other combo. Or make shield helmet 5 % phys immunity so full addy suit gives 20 % immunity. This would of course be a big boon for divine builds.

[AstralUniverse]

Maybe it's a good time to give WM proper scaling above 7 lvls. Maybe change Ki Damage to something else, that scales with STR and/or epic wm levels and does aoe damage on cooldown. Just throwing it out there.

[Jencent]

PMs should be a seperate case, not sure just how strong they are these days.

Depended on build.

[Dr. B]

Wow.

So much is wrong in this thread that I don't know where to begin, especially those figures on "str melee" AC and the anecdotal reasoning used to justify them.

I think would rather pull out my fingernails than comment further, so I'm just going to leave this thread and let it run its course.

Can you just comment for the purpose of sharing knowledge? It would be important to readers if the majority of the thread is perhaps off-kilter.

There’s so much info out there already on the AC that various strength-based melee builds are capable of that I really don’t feel like I should have to. Some of the more detailed character builds on the wiki document it.

I do agree that dex build are pretty strong, but I think the primary issue here is monk dips and the damage they allow, on top of their defense. Buffing strength based builds is NOT the solution. Nor do I think is nerfing monk dip APR, because that would result in monk-heavy builds everywhere. Arelith would turn into a Jet Li flick.

Instead I would nerf the quarterstaff—get rid of the +2 bonus, and reduce the base damage. Possibly do this to kamas and shuriken as well, in the event that they end up being more damaging than the nerfed quarter staff.

I think that’s pretty much all that needs to be done, or at least is a worthwhile experiment. It’s a simple fix that probably won’t throw the meta into chaos or justify a bunch of rebuilds.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

I understand the need to compare things fairly and all the minmaxers expert jousting their arguments in the only context of "PVP + level 30 + optimized/perfect game knowledge + perfectly buffed", as in, "compare perfect potential". So if the topic is pvp, alright, ok, why not, a bit "hypothetical" but I get it.

But there's a few things that these threads ALWAYS forget and honestly I feel that is a problem, even more if it has a chance to influence the devs:

- Most players spend most of their time levelling, not level 30
- Most players spend most of their time in PVE, not in PVP
- Most players will not spend their life fully buffed at all times, if only to save consumables
- Most players will play non optimally (notable reasons: lack of experience, lack of cold blood in pvp/tough pve, etc)
- Lots of players either make unoptimal choices in favor of rp/flavor/utility in their builds, AND/OR make mistakes, AND/OR make conscious suboptimal choices just to not be a metaclone (weapon choice for example, going two handed for example, etc)

So once you consider the above, 80% of the arguments jousted here are irrelevant (to an extent) for the most common experience of the average guy. Which is our playerbase. Not high end pvp at 30 between two experts.

Please consider what it is, to level a str character, on this server when you remove what seems obvious to the discussion: being superbuffed is not obvious, using a shield is not obvious, you might not have the coins to have the best gear for your level, IE is not an option until level 15+ or your ab will be horrid (unless you're guarding someone, but then the discussion is completely biased again), etc... then go to the forest of despair and enjoy not being able to charge in, getting shredded, having no tools in your kit beside KD, etc etc etc

Note that I'm a minmaxer that doesn't play at high epic levels AND that doesn't do pvp anymore. So i'm already not the guy described above even if i'm clearly not a metaexpert, and still, this typical guy above exists, maybe not on the forums, even less in those threads, but really I doubt that the most of our playerbase are hardcore minmaxers that sit at 30 to pvp.

And that's also why, once we talk again of player experience, let me say again: str chars (divine excluded), balanced or not, have little to no meaningful progression choices both for variety, power, and utility. Which makes their progression dull (barb excluded).

Strength characters both vary a lot and have an easy leveling experience (unless your are doingow ac barb two hand memes which are fun)

Cookie cutter weapon master (20 fighter 7 wm 3 rogue)
23 fighter 7 wm (elf, hin, or dwarf)
30 fighter
Weapon master bard (7 wm 23 bard)
16 bard everything soemthing else
Pure bard
3 rogue or bard 10 knight 17 blackgaurd
All the knight builds
All the divine non dual wield builds
Optimal str based ranger

List goes on and on

[Seven Sons of Sin]

I do think there is a point buried in here about how DEX builds get to have more fun epic feats (and epic leveling) via the Epic Dodge and Blinding Speed.

Because Overwhelming Critical is such trash, and Devastating Critical is banned, maybe we can tweak these feats to give high STR chars more interesting epic feats?

Wouldn't know how they look, and I wouldn't want them to be about straight damage, but offer some kind of utility that Blinding Speed does for DEX'ers.

Furthermore, Adamantine Full Plate nets you 8+1+3=12 AC, and 10% Damage Immunity. Isn't it crazy when you compare it to other items like Masterly Elven Chain (which also offers 12AC) and Rogue Leathers (also 12), but they ALSO give you crazy things like skill bonuses, spell-per-day, and runic stuff?

I think there's also a point to be had that, even if the STR/DEX divide is still good enough, that the amount of STUFF the traditional non-fullplate builds now get just really really overshadows traditional strength-builds.

So, yeah: a few more epic feats, and some better epic gear, for str-chars, would be really nice.

[BaRKyy]

Just want to point out for any new reader to the thread that the vast majority of the 'dex' builds in this thread are dex builds with a monk dip. The truth of the matter is dex melee *barely* exists as it is, it's almost non-viable as of right now, dex melee with a monk dip is a different story, as well as swashbucklers but they're in their own category. Instead of buffing strength melees, nerfing dex melees, trying to cater to a whole subsystem of builds that can abuse or be abused with any of the aforementioned changes and then having to worry about how the non-mundane side of things will react to it..

Why not just.. You know.. Nerf monk dips?

One level 3 dip from monk nets you:

- At least 6 AC, for the vast majority (including the ranger build most cite) you get an extra 8 AC just from your wisdom modifier
- An extra 6 AC on top of that from tumble
- An extra APR, with improved BAB at -3. Ranger dual wielding feats means you hit 9 APR at -3 with AB in the 50s.
- Evasion
- Flurry of Blows feat, so an extra APR.
- Cleave
- Deflect Arrows
- 10% Faster base movement speed
- Still Mind
- Class with disc, tumble, ms, hide, perform.

No other dip compares to monk when it comes to dex. Monk should be edited to attain these benefits at a later stage, especially flurry of blows. The baseline of netting 14 AC on average and two extra APR from a dip is mind boggling and if it were any other class it probably would have had a look taken at it ages ago.

Why is this strong, well. Take a 21/6/3 Ranger, fighter, monk. You can do 8 strength on this build and still be hitting in the 30-40s per hit at level 30 because of class bonuses to damage. Strength benefit from this by dumping ability points into strength, the fact a dex build can get away with it too is scary. You can currently go 27/3 ranger monk and end up with 53 AB with 9 APR with a +5 weapon.

A different example is the strength weapon master, the bog standard one. A strength weapon master that goes 20/7/3 fighter WM monk instead of rogue at the end, utilising a naginata, will decimate the bog standard one unless they're two handing with a scythe and get lucky or similar because a monk dip ends up netting you an extra 2 AC compared to the bog standard. So much so that naginata's had to be nerfed, most likely not for any single hit damage they did, but because it's 6 APR at a high BAB. It melts people.

You may be wondering why, at least when I was still on the server, that every second dex mundane carried a quarterstaff, a weapon that does three damage per hit at a 20x crit rating. There's your answer. Any build that relies on a dip to function should probably be changed imo. This post may be taken as a reason to nerf monk as a whole, even though majority monk really isn't fantastic as it is right now, but I hope we see some change to this dip in particular, I'd definitely hate to see an entire section of players, mundane strengths, be buffed just to deal with people who click monk at level 26.

[Might-N-Magic]

Currently running with a buddy who's a Str-build... No divine might or anything, dual wields and straight-up hits over 150+ crits. I got no idea what the OP is complaining about. Yes, there are bad builds, but there are great builds in every idiom. You can't really complain you have bad AC, but high, hard damage against everything when the other side of the fence has good ac and hits things it can't sneak for 10.

[NPC Logger Number 2]

Currently running with a buddy who's a Str-build... No divine might or anything, dual wields and straight-up hits over 150+ crits. I got no idea what the OP is complaining about. Yes, there are bad builds, but there are great builds in every idiom. You can't really complain you have bad AC, but high, hard damage against everything when the other side of the fence has good ac and hits things it can't sneak for 10.

I've played the STR based WM build that deals 150 crits. I've also played the Spellsword/monk quarterstaff build that only deals 50 on crits. The difference is the latter can sit at 60-70 AC and never be hit, while hitting the former 9-10 times a round for 30-50 damage. That easily adds up to 300 DPS. "OMG HUGE CRITS!" does not really matter when you can't even land a hit. By the time you get lucky enough to roll two consecutive 20's to confirm a crit they've probably dealt about 900 damage to you and you're sitting in the fugue. I'd really like a second opinion though from someone else who has rolled both a level 30 STR WM and a level 30 quarterstaff/monk dip build. I'd wager their experience probably would be similar to mine.

[Wethrinea]

One solution could be to have monk wis AC, divine might/shield and divin/dark blessing bonuses cap with level, like insightful strike does on Swashbuckler. That would make dipping a lot less useful.

[AstralUniverse]

Currently running with a buddy who's a Str-build... No divine might or anything, dual wields and straight-up hits over 150+ crits. I got no idea what the OP is complaining about. Yes, there are bad builds, but there are great builds in every idiom. You can't really complain you have bad AC, but high, hard damage against everything when the other side of the fence has good ac and hits things it can't sneak for 10.

I've played the STR based WM build that deals 150 crits. I've also played the Spellsword/monk quarterstaff build that only deals 50 on crits. The difference is the latter can sit at 60-70 AC and never be hit, while hitting the former 9-10 times a round for 30-50 damage. That easily adds up to 300 DPS. "OMG HUGE CRITS!" does not really matter when you can't even land a hit. By the time you get lucky enough to roll two consecutive 20's to confirm a crit they've probably dealt about 900 damage to you and you're sitting in the fugue. I'd really like a second opinion though from someone else who has rolled both a level 30 STR WM and a level 30 quarterstaff/monk dip build. I'd wager their experience probably would be similar to mine.

Havent you ever seen a str build deletes a dexer in 1 round with true strike + KD? The game is really not as narrow as you present in this example. Also, for the last time, str builds reach 60+ ac and 70+ if divine shield on. EDIT: Pure fighter gets 63 ac.