Let's talk about tags

[Shadowy Reality]

I have to agree with the Outcast tags. I was playing one when they were implemented. My character was fairly low profile, only interacting with very specific people on the surface and otherwise just quickly going about her business, checking message boards, shops and little else.

Shortly after the tags went in, the general attitude towards her did a big 180. I had people try to kill her solely for the reason of being an Outcast, and thus not belonging in the surface, it was not great.

I don't think we need tags for Outcasts. They can be found, spies in the Underdark can relay who they see mingling to people in the surface and information spread naturally. The tag just seems lazy.

[ReverentBlade]

My beef with the outcast tag is that it is very vague. My character would react wildly different depending on what they were known being outcast -for-, but I'm not given that opportunity. Also, its a self-feeding circle. If I don't blow you up on sight, my own settlement turns on me.

[AskRyze]

I've never seen an Outcast killed outright simply for being an Outcast, but what I have seen a lot of is those Outcasts strutting through Cordor like they own the place, and then pulling out the Modern Indignant Libertarian's Handbook for Dealing with Cops when they get faced down by twenty armed guards.

The whole leave or die thing was the RP opportunity that they requested, and then turned down, which I don't understand. There are a lot of places to go from there, with even a limited imagination, and the merest shred of humbleness.

Allow me to share a story.

My outcast friend and I (currently a level 7 orog fighter) had just made it topside through the stingers cavern. My friend, being much more of an explorator than I, and I, myself being in a particularly fey mood to go along with his antics despite what I assumed was better judgement, decided to go on a bit of a walkabout and collect a few surface portals, see the sights, possibly explore some of the new zones. I made an effort to disguise my identity as a 'Particularly large half-orc' though this probably only got people to actually examine me more closely.

This resulted in no fewer than seven fully-warded surfacers, summons in tow, halting my friend and I at a bridge north of mayfields. I was told to leave or die. I, perhaps against my better judgement, decided to play along, see if there could be some roleplay earned out of this. I sheathed my weapon and removed my shield, explaining in common that I was on a blood-quest assigned me by my warchief to go kill one of the orc chieftans on the surface and bring back his head (a bold-faced lie, but that was never questioned). They seemed not to care, continuing to insist that I go back to the underdark and never return, and that I should go take a portal directly to the underdark; that I should not pass go, and not collect my 200 GP either. I countered with that I didn't know where a portal source was on the surface - OOC, I know the surface fairly well, but IC my character has spent all of maybe 5 hours under the sun's light and obviously wouldn't know where the nearby portals were. One of the people who was there dropped a lens at the bridge, and implored that I use it to leave immediately. I asked for their names, and gave them my own. I then died to a phantasmal killer cast from stealth. My friend joined me in the fuge shortly thereafter.

This pattern repeats itself, and frankly this was the most positive interaction I have had with a surfacer - pirates notwithstanding - while I was playing a UD race/Outcast. Unfortunately, the surface is directly inimical to underdarkers of any staple, and attempts to actually perform something which might resemble roleplay are met with "Oh hey they did their one line of interaction" on the average and, at best, "Ok, you're an underdarker and I get that you're trying to roleplay, but go back to your hole before one of us gets bored of saying 'go back to your hole' and kills you."

[The GrumpyCat]

See, I can agree that maybe outcasts should be more difficult to 'out'. The tag system is clunky, and I'd love it if instead there were, say, a list of all outcasts currently abour or something like that so pcs had to put more investment in spotting them. I think that is a good point.

But the hostility example you give above...? I mean yeah, I agree that it'd be nice if there were more to it. But it's also not unreasonable.

You have to remember that your playing a MONSTER. You're playing a creature who's species, enjoys killing, torturing, enslaving. It's pretty reasonable that people won't want you around on the surface.

If you're playing an outcast you are likely playing someone who AT BEST... at VERY BEST... is renound for hanging around the above. At worst is an active and enthusiastic participent even BEFORE they got involved into slavery.

What sort of rp are you hoping for exactly?

[Skibbles]

I've never seen an Outcast killed outright simply for being an Outcast, but what I have seen a lot of is those Outcasts strutting through Cordor like they own the place, and then pulling out the Modern Indignant Libertarian's Handbook for Dealing with Cops when they get faced down by twenty armed guards.

The whole leave or die thing was the RP opportunity that they requested, and then turned down, which I don't understand. There are a lot of places to go from there, with even a limited imagination, and the merest shred of humbleness.

Allow me to share a story.

My outcast friend and I (currently a level 7 orog fighter) had just made it topside through the stingers cavern. My friend, being much more of an explorator than I, and I, myself being in a particularly fey mood to go along with his antics despite what I assumed was better judgement, decided to go on a bit of a walkabout and collect a few surface portals, see the sights, possibly explore some of the new zones. I made an effort to disguise my identity as a 'Particularly large half-orc' though this probably only got people to actually examine me more closely.

This resulted in no fewer than seven fully-warded surfacers, summons in tow, halting my friend and I at a bridge north of mayfields. I was told to leave or die. I, perhaps against my better judgement, decided to play along, see if there could be some roleplay earned out of this. I sheathed my weapon and removed my shield, explaining in common that I was on a blood-quest assigned me by my warchief to go kill one of the orc chieftans on the surface and bring back his head (a bold-faced lie, but that was never questioned). They seemed not to care, continuing to insist that I go back to the underdark and never return, and that I should go take a portal directly to the underdark; that I should not pass go, and not collect my 200 GP either. I countered with that I didn't know where a portal source was on the surface - OOC, I know the surface fairly well, but IC my character has spent all of maybe 5 hours under the sun's light and obviously wouldn't know where the nearby portals were. One of the people who was there dropped a lens at the bridge, and implored that I use it to leave immediately. I asked for their names, and gave them my own. I then died to a phantasmal killer cast from stealth. My friend joined me in the fuge shortly thereafter.

This pattern repeats itself, and frankly this was the most positive interaction I have had with a surfacer - pirates notwithstanding - while I was playing a UD race/Outcast. Unfortunately, the surface is directly inimical to underdarkers of any staple, and attempts to actually perform something which might resemble roleplay are met with "Oh hey they did their one line of interaction" on the average and, at best, "Ok, you're an underdarker and I get that you're trying to roleplay, but go back to your hole before one of us gets bored of saying 'go back to your hole' and kills you."

Honestly I'm not sure what you expected to happen in that scenario. They even plainly handed you an out.

Wandering the surface as a full blooded Orc seems like it should probably and realistically get you that kind of treatment.

I'm not sure this story is relevant to the thread.

[Hazard]

The current situation is:

Outcasts
Cons:
Outcasts cannot operate on the surface (as is expected). Some surface portals don't work for them. Boats don't work for them. Shops don't work for them. Everyone will want to kill you on sight in every settlement, including the ungoverned ones because it is still on the surface and you WILL encounter surfacers who want to kill you, constantly. You must delete a level 26 or higher character to get the normal reward.

Pros:
You can use the hub portal and become a citizen of the Sharps of Devil's table. Starts with Undercommon.

Non-Outcasts
Pros:
You can go anywhere and do anything on the surface. You can be a citizen in every surface settlement. Every settlement on the server will welcome or tolerate you including Andunor, where you are more than free to socialise, shop, explore, visit etc. You do not have a tag in your description that makes you a target for anyone, surface OR underdarker. You can be anywhere and do anything you want.

Cons:
Can't use hub portal, a consequence easily avoided by carrying a portal lense (2000ish gold, ez), slapping on a temporary collar (prisoner) or being enslaved by a friend (common occurrence). Can't become a citizen in Sharp's or Devil's.


So what's my point?
My point is not that playing an outcast and being treated as an outcast sucks. It doesn't. That's what we wanted. That's "what we signed up for", yes. My point is, you can play an outcast without even spending a normal reward. You're arguably a better villain/outcast by not mechanically being an outcast, because it allows you to operate in both worlds, and it costs you a whole normal reward (level 26+) character less.

Keep in mind, I am talking from the perspective of (outcast) only. Not race. Humans for example.

[The Rambling Midget]

You're arguably a better villain/outcast by not mechanically being an outcast, because it allows you to operate in both worlds, and it costs you a whole normal reward (level 26+) character less.

Don't be an Outcast, if that's what you're after. It's not supposed to be fair, it's not supposed to be equitable, it's not supposed to make your life easier. It's supposed to be an opportunity to try something different, and tell a different story.

By choosing to play a villain who is an Outcast, you're starting under the implicit premise that you have already FAILED. You could not gather the followers you needed to attain legitimacy. You could not accomplish your goals. You were caught, you were sent away, and you were branded for life. That's being an outcast.

I agree with what others have said in this thread, that it's a really odd situation to start your character as an Outcast, since it implies RP has occurred, which, in actuality, has not. I'd drop the award cost and make it a token, so that those choosing it can get some guidance beforehand.

The biggest problem with the Outcast tag, in my opinion, is the expectation applied to it by the players who choose it. The existing documentation on it does make it pretty clear that you're going to have a really bad time on the surface, but I don't know if it's being shoved into people's faces quite hard enough when they make the choice, so some bigger, brighter red flags might help.

Outcasts are typically native to the island of Arelith but have done (or been convincingly accused of) a crime or act so horrible that civilization has cast them out, refusing to deal with them at all.

That doesn't sound like something to be taken lightly.

[Kuma]

See, I can agree that maybe outcasts should be more difficult to 'out'. The tag system is clunky, and I'd love it if instead there were, say, a list of all outcasts currently abour or something like that so pcs had to put more investment in spotting them. I think that is a good point.

But the hostility example you give above...? I mean yeah, I agree that it'd be nice if there were more to it. But it's also not unreasonable.

You have to remember that your playing a MONSTER. You're playing a creature who's species, enjoys killing, torturing, enslaving. It's pretty reasonable that people won't want you around on the surface.

If you're playing an outcast you are likely playing someone who AT BEST... at VERY BEST... is renound for hanging around the above. At worst is an active and enthusiastic participent even BEFORE they got involved into slavery.

What sort of rp are you hoping for exactly?

What the Snuggle a Bugbear dude how is this a reply

reread my post

Cons:
Can't use hub portal, a consequence easily avoided by carrying a portal lense (2000ish gold, ez), slapping on a temporary collar (prisoner) or being enslaved by a friend (common occurrence). Can't become a citizen in Sharp's or Devil's.

There's an NPC in Greyport that can take you to an everyone-usable 2 way portal for 250.

Outcasts are typically native to the island of Arelith but have done (or been convincingly accused of) a crime or act so horrible that civilization has cast them out, refusing to deal with them at all.

That doesn't sound like something to be taken lightly.

this doesnt sound like something viable.

[Kuma]

The biggest problem with the Outcast tag, in my opinion, is the expectation applied to it by the players who choose it. The existing documentation on it does make it pretty clear that you're going to have a really bad time on the surface, but I don't know if it's being shoved into people's faces quite hard enough when they make the choice, so some bigger, brighter red flags might help.

I want you to give me five+ concrete examples of what this means.

I want five character backgrounds for five different people, and how they are 100% unable to re-enter society.

I want them in vivid, interesting, and deep detail.

unless of course you cant do that without breaking pg13...........................................................................

[The GrumpyCat]

Kuma - it wasn't in response to your post, but in response to AskRyz.

[Drowboy]

The biggest problem with the Outcast tag, in my opinion, is the expectation applied to it by the players who choose it. The existing documentation on it does make it pretty clear that you're going to have a really bad time on the surface, but I don't know if it's being shoved into people's faces quite hard enough when they make the choice, so some bigger, brighter red flags might help.

I want you to give me five+ concrete examples of what this means.

I want five character backgrounds for five different people, and how they are 100% unable to re-enter society.

I want them in vivid, interesting, and deep detail.

unless of course you cant do that without breaking pg13...........................................................................

Vith pg13, how do you do that as a level 2?

[Cybren]

I had another post that I thought I made but my phone ate I guess but mostly I agree that the tags are Bad, that it overly fosters low-effort Red vs Blue conflict RP, and isn't very well thought out, presenting odd metagame information that your character nonetheless knows IC, without knowing what it is they know IC.

The biggest problem with the Outcast tag, in my opinion, is the expectation applied to it by the players who choose it. The existing documentation on it does make it pretty clear that you're going to have a really bad time on the surface, but I don't know if it's being shoved into people's faces quite hard enough when they make the choice, so some bigger, brighter red flags might help.

I want you to give me five+ concrete examples of what this means.

I want five character backgrounds for five different people, and how they are 100% unable to re-enter society.

I want them in vivid, interesting, and deep detail.

unless of course you cant do that without breaking pg13...........................................................................

So when around the time that Hexblades came out I and a few other people asked "what is it about Being A Hexblade that makes one evil? What is the evil thing specifically involved", in that warlocks and blackguards, for example, explicitly associate with malign entities, what is the reasoning for Hexblades that makes them evil? And a response that was given by someone was that "it's your job to figure out what makes them evil", and I think that response illustrates something of a gulf in how some people approach roleplaying. And now I'm too tired to figure out what my original point was or where I'm going with this besides "the undefined nature of what makes an Outcast an Outcast, and How You Know That Outcast Is an Outcast" is an apparently insurmountable flaw with the system

[The GrumpyCat]

The biggest problem with the Outcast tag, in my opinion, is the expectation applied to it by the players who choose it. The existing documentation on it does make it pretty clear that you're going to have a really bad time on the surface, but I don't know if it's being shoved into people's faces quite hard enough when they make the choice, so some bigger, brighter red flags might help.

I want you to give me five+ concrete examples of what this means.

I want five character backgrounds for five different people, and how they are 100% unable to re-enter society.

I want them in vivid, interesting, and deep detail.

unless of course you cant do that without breaking pg13...........................................................................

Vith pg13, how do you do that as a level 2?

Millcent Hemmingway was a sweet girl with the misfortune of being born to two parents who were demon worshipers. When they were discovered and killed, no one believed her pleas of innocence. Her name got spread far and wide for her familys misdeeds, so she was forced to run underground to escape.

Hecitate Shimmin was novice assassin, who botched a job - killing not only his mark but his family too (one of whom was definatly not on contract) Worst still he was caught in the act. Now not only the city he came from, but also the assiassins guild are after him. So he had to flee underground to escape.

Jason Tornaway was a Paladin of Tyr who was framed for murdering his wife. He was branded with the mark of a murderer sent to prison, and lost faith in Tyr, but vowed vengence on those that did this. He went under ground as his brand would show him up as a murderer to anyone on the surface. He now survives best he can, plotting vengence.

Elllicent Morningway is an aspiring necromancer, whilst not manging to raise any undead yet, she was already gathering corpses from the local graveyard. The authorities heard about her unsightly ways, and ralized her plans to become a corpse-raiser. She fled to the only place that would have her - the underdark.

Jenny Kurtz is a powerful socreress, but in a fit of pique burned down her village. She fled across the sea, but even that wasn't enough to hide the mass murder and arson she had performed. So she fled into the underdark to hide her crimes and make her way best as she could there.

Tenny is a druid who won't put up with the destruction of the forest on mass. To teach the local hunters a lesson about over hunting, he captured them, crucified them and left them to die. This horrific act earned the ire of the local (more peace loving) circle, who cast him out and spread news of his horrific deeds. Hated everhwhere he has fled to Arelith and to the underdark, to learn a new balence.

Jason accidently summoned a demon and was caught. Everyone hates him now. He has fled to the underdark.

Rosy Mirenth was born with wierd blotchy skin, this is obviously a sign of infernal hatred and rumour spred of her being a demon-lover. So she fled into the underdark, where her unsightly appearence may be accepted.

Those are examples I came up with in about... five minutes of the sort of crimes or situations outcasts may be in. A backstory is really easy to come up with if you give it five minutes thought.

Does this mean that the Outcast Tag is good and perfect?

No.

No.

Absolutly Not.

It sutcks.

We need something better.

BUT the concept of outcast is someone who, for some reason, is not particularly welcome on the surface. From an NPC perspective, they're probably not - as you'd put it Kill On Sight, but at the same time they're probably someone you wouldn't turn your back on either. And keep in mind, Outcasts are people who have chosen that - rather than live up to their crimes, or risk a life on the surface, they're going to slip down into the underdark and live and aid creatures who consider Torture and Mutilatoin a fun sunday's afternoon activity.

Thie issue is that without the tag Outcasts are TOO powerful socially, as they can get 100% acceptence in surface AND underdark. A while ago we were seeing complaints of too many outcasts for just that reason. It's not fair to expect PCs to treat outcasts as outcasts if they have no way of telling who they are.

Idieally I'd like there to be some sort of... notice board of all active outcasts, giving names and maybe descriptions. So that PCs who care about this sort of thing have to activly go and memorise it. It might also (if done right) have space for why said person was an outcast, adding further background.

But yes, it is very possible to make an 'outcast' character - one who the npc populace at least would not tolerate without some serious redemption activity.

[Cybren]

Thie issue is that without the tag Outcasts are TOO powerful socially, as they can get 100% acceptence in surface AND underdark. A while ago we were seeing complaints of too many outcasts for just that reason. It's not fair to expect PCs to treat outcasts as outcasts if they have no way of telling who they are.

I'm not sure I'm following how this is a... problem though?

EDIT: Like, presumably the issue isn't "you like to drink tea in the hub" it's "you are doing Bad Things", okay, so what are the bad things, why don't people know about them, and if the answer is "because it's an obscure piece of my backstory that I haven't necessarily defined" why should I get that information via a metagame tag?

[Hazard]

You're arguably a better villain/outcast by not mechanically being an outcast, because it allows you to operate in both worlds, and it costs you a whole normal reward (level 26+) character less.

Don't be an Outcast, if that's what you're after. It's not supposed to be fair, it's not supposed to be equitable, it's not supposed to make your life easier. It's supposed to be an opportunity to try something different, and tell a different story.

By choosing to play a villain who is an Outcast, you're starting under the implicit premise that you have already FAILED. You could not gather the followers you needed to attain legitimacy. You could not accomplish your goals. You were caught, you were sent away, and you were branded for life. That's being an outcast.

I agree with what others have said in this thread, that it's a really odd situation to start your character as an Outcast, since it implies RP has occurred, which, in actuality, has not. I'd drop the award cost and make it a token, so that those choosing it can get some guidance beforehand.

The biggest problem with the Outcast tag, in my opinion, is the expectation applied to it by the players who choose it. The existing documentation on it does make it pretty clear that you're going to have a really bad time on the surface, but I don't know if it's being shoved into people's faces quite hard enough when they make the choice, so some bigger, brighter red flags might help.

Outcasts are typically native to the island of Arelith but have done (or been convincingly accused of) a crime or act so horrible that civilization has cast them out, refusing to deal with them at all.

That doesn't sound like something to be taken lightly.

I feel like that's the second time you have entirely missed the point of my post. I'm not sure how to say what I want to say without you thinking I'm trying to say something else, so I'm just going to excuse myself from the thread entirely. Hopefully the dev team can sort out a solution, or not. Either way, I stand by my original post of .. not really caring one way or the other.

It's good enough. Could be better.

[Kuma]

every last one of GC's outcast ideas would easily be redeemable on the surface

[Morgy]

BUT the concept of outcast is someone who, for some reason, is not particularly welcome on the surface.

I think this is the part of why a new character shouldn't begin with this tag. They haven't established their notoriety in game to any players, so how can anyone really react to their history as an Outcast? It's far too vague.

Outcasts, if to continue to be a thing, would need to have their story available in their biography as why they are Outcasts.. And then you have folk able to read it who might be from another land/underdark/wherever who have no reason to have heard this story, but will still have access to it.

The whole thing is so messy. The tag needs to go or the whole concept of Outcast imo.

[Cybren]

I was also under the assumption that "outcast due to misunderstood circumstances" was frowned upon? That that's part of the whole impetus behind Redemption for outcasts requiring a mark of despair?

[Dr. B]

Against those who claim that the outcast tag system is a necessary evil to prevent Outcasts from entering surface settlements, I would aver than Outcasts entering surface settlements is a small price to pay for not having the evil that is the tag system. Looking at it with a view to the server-wide quality of RP, the tag system is vastly worse. And now that Outcasts gated behind a reward, it's less of an issue than it used to be.

[Kuma]

Against those who claim that the outcast tag system is a necessary evil to prevent Outcasts from entering surface settlements, I would aver than Outcasts entering surface settlements is a small price to pay for not having the evil that is the tag system. Looking at it with a view to the server-wide quality of RP, the tag system is vastly worse. And now that Outcasts gated behind a reward, it's less of an issue than it used to be.

a very succinct way of putting it. 100% behind this assertion.

[Drowboy]

Against those who claim that the outcast tag system is a necessary evil to prevent Outcasts from entering surface settlements, I would aver than Outcasts entering surface settlements is a small price to pay for not having the evil that is the tag system. Looking at it with a view to the server-wide quality of RP, the tag system is vastly worse. And now that Outcasts gated behind a reward, it's less of an issue than it used to be.

a very succinct way of putting it. 100% behind this assertion.

This.

Also, not only are those ideas easy surface chars, they're pretty tame compared to what you get in the surface for evils and even neutrals sometimes.

Hell, the starter city is ruled by a king who glasses a fishing village and married an open Banite. 'I did some murders at level 2' doesn't stack up to that.

[Nevrus]

I think a lot of people are missing one of the core principles of this server:

Surfacers and Underdarkers hate each other. They want to kill each other as much as they can. They want the other side to be wiped out.

This is a non-negotiable, Irongron-given directive to us as the playerbase. This must be maintained as the expected default, and any widespread movement against it is counteracted with harsher restrictions on one or the other to discourage any friendly relations.

The current tag system is the result of the playerbase not playing along as intended, necessitating it.

You may not like the us-versus-them mentality but that IS the server, according to its creator and master, and it's the paradigm to build around creatively.

Kill on sight? That's not creative, that's crap. It's more likely for you to break rules than do anything meaningful with it.

Here's my advice to surfacers on how to deal with Underdarkers creatively:

Attempt to scare them off. Aggressive action you don't intend on following through on to give them a chance to run away from you. Their playtime isn't destroyed by getting dunked, you walk away with an internal sense of victory having maintained the setting.

Guide them. Keep them away from populated settlements to get their business done then show them the door. This is appropriate for more neutral or evil characters, but just because you're an evil character doesn't mean you want to be best friends with a scary monster or outcasted bottom-barrel.

Utilize them. Pretend to be nice while grilling them for information, then give them advice about oncoming danger to get them to go. Make them an opportunity to learn more about affairs below rather than a target.

Play along with their villainy? If they're up there doing the evil, it's more fun if someone actually lets themselves do the victim. If you play along creatively enough there's a chance you'll have an interesting experience with positive memories. There's also a chance you'll get enslaved (only if you want) or tortured (only if you want), best to be up-front with them after they've captured you what you're feeling up to at that moment. If you don't want to be hurt too bad you might see some very creative results from the villainy-provider.

Things not to do:
Try to redeem them on principle. They're monsters or decided to join the monsters. Redemption is something earned by earnestly trying and putting oneself in a vulnerable position. Don't give love and hugs to pillaging genociders.

Try to actually become friends with them. As a surfacer, your entire life you've been raised to believe the Underdark is a pit of boogeymen. The worst necromancer on the surface is better than the best drow. They exist within and enable a culture actively destructive to your home and friends. It may not seem 'reasonable' to you, but it's 'reasonable' to a person raised within Faerunian culture.

Treat them like anyone else. An Outcast has presumably done something awful in the past that means they can't be trusted. The rumors for the ones that actually did it and only got framed for it sound the same and more often than not they're true, and more often than not when they're true the person will lie about that. An Outcast should be treated with intense suspicion at best and hostility at worst. If you're feeling generous, instead of kicking them out or killing them, just follow them around watching them over their back very obviously and uncomfortably, while regularly insulting them.

Kill them on sight. This isn't really making any story or interest, it's vaguely showing a stranger your numbers are higher. Try to get some kind of interaction with them that has meaningful plot to it, or else you're just being lazy and pooping on the world.

I know some people will hate this but it's the best I can offer the discussion.

[Drowboy]

Your premise is flawed in that that's all old JJ stuff and the 'must destroy other side' stuff has been relaxed specifically. Andunor in particular has been pointed out multiple time as a trade city where surfacers can show up, do some business, and go, theoretical without getting yeeted.

Ambiguity is good for storytelling.

[Kuma]

yeah your premise is based on woefully outdated nonsense - everything from the past few years screams opposition to the old "surface v UD" WoW-esque nonsense which is straight up Not the case right now

[Anomandaris]

yeah your premise is based on woefully outdated nonsense - everything from the past few years screams opposition to the old "surface v UD" WoW-esque nonsense which is straight up Not the case right now

The only time I've had an interaction on my outcast where I my disguise was popped, after asking me to leave the Arcane Tower (which I did), a "Paladin" and friends came outside as I was walking away warded and attacked me with literally zero RP. I reported it but it happens all the time. Upon asking the player why the quick jump to PvP, the answer was basically that you're an Outcast and not welcome on the surface. Without naming names, this is a fairly long standing well known PC.

9/10 interactions I hear about from outcast PC's with any settlement guards, RH members etc, it's if you're spotted and vulnerable (i.e. they have the numbers) you're gonna get PvP'd. I think that's fair, it's "permitted'' and we're criminals. Sometimes there could be a lot more RP but it is what it is.

Rather than any of the fantastic ideas stated above for RP, this is still very common. Is it better than before? Sure... is it still very much "oh they're a pre-determined (settlement/racial/religious) enemy I can PVP them with minimal RP?" Yep!