Arelith

The Demon Queen of Spiders who is much a prisoner of the Abyss as a Denizen and puts all of her emotional baggage on the race she dominates the portfolio of is a reach?

The same goddess who's clergy demands nightly submission rituals too where there is no excuse no to attend?

The same goddess who has this as dogma?

Fear is as strong as steel, while love and respect are soft and useless. Convert or destroy nonbeliever drow. Weed out the weak and the rebellious. Destroy impugners of the faith. Sacrifice males, slaves, and those of other races who ignore the commands of Lolth or her clerics. Raise children to praise and fear Lolth, each family should produce at least one cleric to serve her. Questioning Lolth’s motives or wisdom is a sin, as is aiding nondrow against the drow, or ignoring Lolth’s commands for the sake of a lover. Revere arachnids of all kinds; those who kill or mistreat a spider must die.

I'm not so sure it is a reach. It seems like she is saying "leave me, think of things other than me, travel outside of my domain and die."

Red Ropes wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 4:27 am The Demon Queen of Spiders who is much a prisoner of the Abyss as a Denizen and puts all of her emotional baggage on the race she dominates the portfolio of is a reach?

The same goddess who's clergy demands nightly submission rituals too where there is no excuse no to attend?

The same goddess who has this as dogma?

Fear is as strong as steel, while love and respect are soft and useless. Convert or destroy nonbeliever drow. Weed out the weak and the rebellious. Destroy impugners of the faith. Sacrifice males, slaves, and those of other races who ignore the commands of Lolth or her clerics. Raise children to praise and fear Lolth, each family should produce at least one cleric to serve her. Questioning Lolth’s motives or wisdom is a sin, as is aiding nondrow against the drow, or ignoring Lolth’s commands for the sake of a lover. Revere arachnids of all kinds; those who kill or mistreat a spider must die.

I'm not so sure it is a reach. It seems like she is saying "leave me, think of things other than me, travel outside of my domain and die."

Yes, and I don't see what any of that has to do with travel. Sorry. I don't think she is saying that at all, and in the lore travel is not prohibited by Lloth. Agents are sent to the surface and out of her domain all the time under her direct orders, because she intervenes heavily with mortals.

Travel is a domain of movement. Being able to teleport. Climb walls. Not get stuck in stuff. Fly. Astral projections.
All of those things are very fitting and not all opposed by Lloth. Travel is a common enough choice for her priestess' in games, it's even the only way to get some of the Lloth flavour into a spider priestess and it's a prerequisite for divine intercession introduced in 'Drow of the Underdark'.

As on the matter of Mask & Vhaeraun - deities whom are very, very similar to one another. They lose out on knowledge for a few reasons - knowledge domain isn't something they even get so thats one layer of why it was taken. Secondly - their dogma, their priesthoods may traffick in information and secret them away.

Both gods believe in lies, distorting the truth, using it to their own ends outside of the preservation of knowledge or what is.

It's why they are enemies of Oghma, which, is another layer of why they don't get it. Oghmytes themselves steal things from those who hoard information or might destroy it. Oghma is a god who canonically has both trickery and knowledge domain.

To simply put it - they are not gods who have anything to do with the instrinsic, esoteric quest of knowledge and effectively oppose it by their actions.

As already stated about Lolth and why it is the way it is and likely will remain - other domains more appropriate to provide those themes will come. Travel domain will have some aspects to it that are inherent to free movement and life - Lolth uses snares and webs literally and metaphorically.

Travel is barred from a few deities just for being particular insular or isolated powers. Gods of stone who literally do not change or move. Gods of tyranny and possession. Lolth is one of those gods who does not care for the world outside of what is hers and when she does interact with it she works strife and mayhem.

Lolth does not want the world to find out there are options other than her.

Red Ropes wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 4:50 am As already stated about Lolth and why it is the way it is and likely will remain - other domains more appropriate to provide those themes will come. Travel domain will have some aspects to it that are inherent to free movement and life - Lolth uses snares and webs literally and metaphorically.

Travel is barred from a few deities just for being particular insular or isolated powers. Gods of stone who literally do not change or move. Lolth is one of those gods who does not care for the world outside of what is hers and when she does interact with it she works strife and mayhem.

Lolth does not want the world to find out there are options other than her.

That all seems like there should be a new domain called Freedom/Liberty, and that should be the one being banned.
I just don't see what Travel (as we currently have it) has to do with any of that stuff. Travel domain is not about liberty or philosophies it's about physical movement.

An example would be all the abilities it grants, which are common to Llothites ..

Longstrider: Increases your speed.
Locate Object: Senses direction toward object (specific or type).
Fly: Subject flies at speed of 60 ft.
Dimension Door: Teleports you short distance.
Teleport: Instantly transports you as far as 100 miles/level.
Find the Path: Shows most direct way to a location.
Teleport, Greater: As teleport, but no range limit and no off-target arrival.
Phase Door: Creates an invisible passage through wood or stone.
Astral Projection: Projects you and companions onto Astral Plane.


While the tyranny domain grants mind affecting and enchantment spells ..

Command: One subject obeys selected command for 1 round.
Enthrall: Captivates all within 100' + 10'/level.
Discern Lies: Reveals deliberate falsehoods.
Fear: Subjects within cone flee for 1 round/level.
Command, Greater: As command, but affects one subject/level.
Geas/Quest: As lesser geas, plus it affects any creature.
Grasping Hand: Large hand provides cover, pushes or grapples.
Charm Monster, Mass: As charm monster, but all within 30'.
Dominate Monster: As dominate person, but any creature.

If Travel were the opposing domain, it would grant some defense or counters to that, but it grants none.
This also opens up a great 'real' Freedom/Liberty domain niche, where it can grant like .. Mind blanks and clarity and freedom of movement and stuff, without the flavours of Travel's web, spiderwalk, teleports and stuff.

I know we said no suggesting domains. Crap. Sorry. It sort of just evolved from the Lloth/Travel discussion though.

How about we just admit that we don't want to lose our earlier haste?

Nekonecro wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 5:14 am How about we just admit that we don't want to lose our earlier haste?

Let's not be like that.
I don't even have a Llothite priestess, and if I did travel wasn't even being considered as a choice. Thank you.

Nekonecro wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 5:14 am How about we just admit that we don't want to lose our earlier haste?

I don't really think that is what they're on about.

However fundamentally its themes are only so far that you get haste earlier than everyone else by one level. It's nice.

It also has slow.... and earlier FoM. The spell Maze.

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As I said we'll probably have an abstracted form of something like "Spider" domain that will grant snares, slows, insectoid swarms, and so forth. The spell web. It's just "in the future" and not now.

Red Ropes wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 5:17 am

Nekonecro wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 5:14 am How about we just admit that we don't want to lose our earlier haste?

I don't really think that is what they're on about.

However fundamentally its themes are only so far that you get haste earlier than everyone else by one level. It's nice.

It also has slow.... and earlier FoM. The spell Maze.

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As I said we'll probably have an abstracted form of something like "Spider" domain that will grant snares, slows, insectoid swarms, and so forth. The spell web. It's just "in the future" and not now.

Fair. I'm probably just being pedantic about the domain names. Spider idea sounds really awesome.

There will definitely be new domains that might be the "opposites" of some things but as this is phase I and we added a bunch of new domains you also have to understand we're going to spend time with those as well to build them up, tweak them, and so forth.

Wait so there will be more domains added down the line? I was about to remake but if there are more choices and features to come later maybe i better not?

Eventually. Like I say in the master thread the new domains are not the "LAST ONES YOU'RE SEEING". We just are being realistic, we wanted to add new stuff in (the 6 new ones), to get the juices flowing, but we'll do it slow.

We just also want to:

Make sure we maintain balance.

Don't bloat the server with weird stuff.

Think of ways to consolidate more of the related domains into neutral, modular things.

Like we have "Acid Domain" but its more of a combination of acidic stuff and slime. If we call something slime people might feel "weird" taking it.

Also, Exordious: You don't need to remake. You can change your domains now.

Currently a shaman so actually have to but i think ill hold off a bit and see what new stuff comes in.

Hi guys, the rest of the team will discuss further about Lolth (Lloth) and Travel Domain, let's move on.

There will be more deities/domains coming, and, thanks to these discussions, we're slowly gaining clarity on how we perceive these domains and what we want to achieve with deity's banned domains. I appreciate everyone keeping things civil.

On the topic of Vhaerun and Mask, both are gods of shadow(s). I think both have Sun banned but what about the Moon? Both tend to reveal what they do in the dark.

Skarain wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 11:09 am On the topic of Vhaerun and Mask, both are gods of shadow(s). I think both have Sun banned but what about the Moon? Both tend to reveal what they do in the dark.

So on one hand I was considering that. On the other... I am not sure. So both do their deeds in their dark and are villainous gods. On the other hand one is a surface thief character and the other has ambition to return his race to the world above.

Both do however have a relationship with Shar. I think it makes sense to block them but at the same time neither have a particular affiliation with the undead either.

This one has racked my brain for a bit actually.

Edit:

I did them up that way. I also did similarly with Ghaundaur/Juiblex and forbade plant, but also sun and moon due ooze nastiness and the corruption of the natural order.

Also I somehow overlooked Yeenoghu. I put him at Healing, Sun, Moon.

I did mention it on an earlier post, but it was a big one so can see people skipping it.

Thieves do most of their work in the night, under the light of the moon. A moonless night is great for hiding, but useless for seeing things, like guards etc. You'll struggle to work without a light of your own, which will get you caught.
Working under the moon on the other hand gives you enough light to work with, further, it exaggerates the darkness of the shadows, actually making it easier to hide. Add to that the fact that the moon domain spells are quite suitable for a follower of Mask, I could see it being a useful tool.


Also, Mask is not linked to Shar in 3.5. Shar wants the Shadow Domain. At this point in time Shar is, if anything, an enemy.


Remember, there is no shadow without light. People crowd towards the light. The moon makes the shadows better. In Darkness, there are no shadows.

As for Vhaeraun. Most rituals are named for the night in some way. His followers on the surface almost certainly act almost always during the night given the aversion to bright lights. The New Moon is a sacred event. (Granted that is when the moon is virtually eclipsed, and pretty much invisible, but its still a phase of the moon)
As a god obsessed with the surface, and whose activities are almost exclusively night time activities, a domain with strong links to the night such as Moon would not be all that strange to my mind.

Well it really comes down to the matter Shar and Vhaeraun actually both are on the evil wi-fi for their churches (Shadow Weave).

V-boy is the patron of Shadow Magic in the Dark Seldarine.

Mask's cult uses it because it has particular advantages for heists and assassinations. (Also in the current part of the lore he is actually being watched out for by Shar. Whether its because she's supposedly always wanted his Shadow portfolio or something else we don't really visit until 4e.)

Both of them also have the Darkness Domain.

Apologies for reopening the Lolth/Travel thing, but to offer a counterpoint:

Some of the defining characteristics of spiders are their speed, the ability to travel unrestrained across webs, and the ability to trap their foes. Which is literally what all the Travel domain spells do. I suppose, lore-wise, the question becomes: Does Lolth view her clerics more as spiders or as prey?

Thought I saw "Animal" for banned domain on Ghaunadaur, which seems strange since part of his portfolio is 'monsters' and animal domain is perhaps the single best way to enhance the ooze summoning stream.

Red Ropes wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 1:57 pm Well it really comes down to the matter Shar and Vhaeraun actually both are on the evil wi-fi for their churches (Shadow Weave).

V-boy is the patron of Shadow Magic in the Dark Seldarine.

Mask's cult uses it because it has particular advantages for heists and assassinations. (Also in the current part of the lore he is actually being watched out for by Shar. Whether its because she's supposedly always wanted his Shadow portfolio or something else we don't really visit until 4e.)

Both of them also have the Darkness Domain.

I would say that for Mask the Darkness domain kinda just stands in for an absence of Shadow. In the battle of Light vs Darkness, if Darkness wins, and exterminates light, there will be no shadows.

I've been mulling over a way to draw the line between "Doesn't fit the god at all but take it if you want" and "Nope. He/She/It/Master/PleaseDontNoticeme wont let you have this. Tough luck.".

Domains are divine aspects, they represent who the god is. in PnP the clerics pick the ones that represent the parts of the gods dogma they most connect to. They are, to some degree, dictated by who the cleric is as a person. A Cleric of Helm who does a great deal of charity work, feeds and clothes the poor, maybe works as a judge, or observes the judiciary closely to make sure they don't abuse their power? Well, He's likely to pick Law, and Protection. Whereas the Helmite cleric who is an officer of the city militia, and watches over the soldiers, keeps the cities martial protections strong, well, probably Protection and Strength.

Previously on Arelith Domains have been largely a purely mechanical thing. While you could pick domains that suited your cleric or the god, it would seriously gimp you compared to the guy who picked Trickery + (insert second tier domain here) and then ignored the domains for anything except spell preparation. Now we can once again pick domains that represent who your cleric is. Your domains should suit your cleric. They should be reflected in the roleplay. I am not saying that a Sun Domain cleric should run around praising the sun in every other sentence, but if people RP with your cleric for a while, and then find out you have Domain X, their response should be "Ooooh, yeah I can see that." and not "Really?" or "Oh. OK." (Obviously Trickery and or Darkness kinda overrule that.)

The above leads into the "How to decide if a domain fits" system. Think of the sort of person that might find themselves attuned to a certain divine domain. Would the god in question seek out their service, not care much either way, or view them as undesirable?
Auril will actively welcome someone who is so attuned to cold that they connect to the domain.
She will accept someone who really likes Travel, because sure, she doesn't much care about it, but hey they want to serve.
Someone who has a love of fire, warmth, summer, growth, joy? Yeah, she'd rather lock them in an ice cube than let them serve.


One of the bans people are bringing up a lot is Travel for Bane and Lloth. Sure, these gods are not against traveling. Hell one of the biggest Banite organisations is the Zhentarim, a massive Farun wide caravan network.
Thing is, what sort of personality loves travel? Not travels a lot because its their job. LOVES travel. loves it so much that when they connect to the well of divine powers THAT is the part that they connect to? Generally they are outgoing, Explorers, people who live not only to experience and learn new things, but also encourage others to do so. That shit? That shit does NOT sit well with despots.


Sure, the spells suit Lloth, but the sort of personality that would gain a travel attunement? That doesn't.

Domains are no longer just a mechanic. They can once again be a reflection of who your character is. What is important to them.

I guess what I am not understanding is what the ground rules are here.

I thought the discussion was blacklisting the domains that made no sense because a cleric of whoever has no business taking them. Good on an evil deity, that sort of thing. It's usually really obvious in that case and most reasonable devs and players would nod in agreement.

It seems we're veering into banning over "well, this is how I think it should be" instead of how the books were written though.

I mean, I admit I'm not an expert on drow stuff but reading the lore in the rulebooks doesn't seem to indicate she'd specifically oppose the concept of travel. It would be a little unusual to take but maybe there are priestesses who go from temple to temple and city to city and would focus on the magic that would aid this? It's not a completely out there concept like taking "good" or "sun". Hopefully that travel domain would be backed by one that's very Lolthy like evil, but maybe clerics should have some agency to study the divine magic that applies to the kind of work they do to support their deity?

I don't even care about drow and won't be playing a cleric of lolth, like ever, so this isn't about that, it's about the process here. I don't see a reason to impose artificial limitations based on very debatable interpretations. I say err on the side of player freedom and just ban what absolutely won't work.

What I do think should be avoided and I don't think too many are advocating is whitelisting only a few specific domains per deity. The reason should be pretty obvious... The deities with the weaker domains won't be played much.

Spriggan Bride wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 9:40 pm It seems we're veering into banning over "well, this is how I think it should be" instead of how the books were written though.

That's how I feel too. I understand the opinions given, I just don't share them and don't think they should limit player choice. Some priestess' and agents of Lloth are encouraged to travel directly by Lloth herself, for example, in canonical stories I've read. The additional meanings given to domains like travel don't seem to exist in source books, and neither does anything about travel domain and spells being forbidden by tyrants.

Hinty wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 5:59 pm Sure, the spells suit Lloth, but the sort of personality that would gain a travel attunement? That doesn't.

Domains are no longer just a mechanic. They can once again be a reflection of who your character is. What is important to them.

I don't and never did see it as purely mechanical either, nor do I see travel domain in the very specific light its being painted in. That's just one interpretation of why someone could have been drawn to the domain.

There's nothing about travel domain only being chosen by freedom and liberty loving people or it opposing tyranny. Travel can be important to a Llothite and that is perfectly acceptable within lore. Lloth is not against travel or people who like to travel, that's the opinion of players and not supported by source material. Despots don't like this or that is another opinion and painting with a very broad brush, despots also love it when their spies, agents, loyalists and etc travel. Lloth has her fingers in many pies outside of the Underdark, and Llothites travel all over the place. There are plenty of stories to back this up, and plenty of stories where travel was actively encouraged or demanded.

Travel is also important for the raiding aspect of Drow, and traversing their domain with superiority.

I think to some of us we'd prefer seeing domains being banned because they directly oppose what that god would stand for. I hear the arguments given why Lloth would be against travel, but they don't seem supported by source material. Even one of the spells added in 'Drow of the Underdark' for Llothite priestess' to use requires travel domain, things like this support the notion that travel domain is open to Drow and not prohibited by Lloth and also has nothing to do with despots or personal freedoms or liberty, but is more about the actual abilities granted and that Lloth does want her followers to have the ability to traverse (travel domain) while impeding the ability of others (travel domain again).



We seem to be conflating the meaning of travel domain with something else. Travel domain, as far as I know, has nothing to do with personalities, politics or philosophies.

It can be simplified down to two views.
One view that says "This is what I think Travel Domain should mean on Arelith, and this is why I think Lloth would be against it."
A second view that says "That's not what Travel Domain means in the source material, and that's why Lloth isn't against it."
It is more the premise that is being rejected than the actual conclusions.

I think this ban should be held off until there's an actual Freedom/Liberty domain to be banned, and not use Travel as a substitute in the meantime. We're using 3.5ed for a reason, and Travel is already a domain that exists with powers granted by it that are not prohibited by the gods we're discussing. in;b4 someone says "tHiS iSnT dNd", yeahIknowthanks.

BUT! I also think this debate could be endless, and I think Red Ropes has done a really great job of explaining and probably has a lot on his plate. Also the team has said they'll discuss internally, so I think out of respect for everyone and their hard work (and their stress levels ) this is the last thing I'll say on this topic.

In order to make sure some old, deactivated entries in the deity book don't become an issue with some clean ups we're replacing them with these entries.

The CG celestial paragons Morwel, Gwynharwyf, Faerinaal (Court of Stars). Not worshipable like the Celestial Hebdomad but they'll end up with their own fun eventually.

Trishina the Goddess of Dolphins. (Oft worshiped by Sea Elves and other intelligent, good aligned sea creatures.)

Hiatea is one of the gods worshipped by Firbolgs outside of the Moonshae isles and sometimes referred to Grond Peaksmasher's mother.

Ramenos is the "god" of Bullywugs who is so lazy and sleepy that he degenerated back into a demon prince.

I reactivated the Lord of Hell, Belial, as a separate entity from his daughter Fierna because he does still have a cult and he is at odds with his daughter.

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Trishina (Nature, H&H) will prohibit fire and storm. She is Lawful Good so she has other obvious prohibitions - locked to sea elves but you can take GoD.

Hiatea (Nature H&H) will prohibit darkness as she's a goddess of sun and moon. She is lawful Good so has other obvious prohibitions - locked to "fey" due to the base firbolg being tied to that but you can take GoD.

Both are druidic and paladin gods.

Ramenos (W&D, H&H) is a CE frog demon/god of Bullywugs who has slept away most of his power and lives in his own filth - being evil he prohibits good and he is restricted to reptilian humanoids but GoD can allow you to follow him.

The Court of Stars are counterparts of the Celestial Hebdomad that are the CG paragons. Queen Morwel (Magic, K&I) and her consorts Faerinaal (T&D, Magic) and Gwynharwyf (W&D, H&H) basically fight against devils and demons and are tied to Selune and the Seldarine. They'll eventually have some in game place or two to attune to.

Belial is LE, is Trickery & K&I, and prohibits Good as well as Cold domain. He and his daughter have similar dispositions but they're also at odds with one another because devils are treacherous and disgusting.

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On top of that I'm moving

Nature & Beast Spirits (a general concept for the animal spirits in DnD) to the Monsterous/others category.
Grond is moving there.
The derro gods are moving there.

all/most good deities should have undeath banned. The combination of evil/undeath should not take up 2 of the three banned domains and only count as one.