Arelith

Biteback damage works seemingly well on paper but I'm not imaginative enough to figure out how to convincingly roleplay that. The best I can come up with is: "My Muscles Eat You".

It is a small amount of damage that they're able to do because they ignore their own defense and the pain from your attack and take advantage of the slight defensive openings that exist while you're attacking. Other classes try to defend themselves or are too distracted by the attack to take advantage of these openings.

The barbarian is only able to ignore the pain and defensive instinct when they work themselves into a frenzy, though.

I think the general idea was to make the barbarian such a terrifying force of irresistible melee aggression that simply engaging him in melee was going to get you hurt, hence the biteback.

As for the objections about the proposed new rage not granting AB or damage:

If you build and gear sensibly, vanilla rage doesn't give you AB or damage either. This is why it's bad and needs a fix. It adds strength to a character who probably already has +12 strength from gear and spells, making it quite literally a "fight worse" button for most barbs, except in situations where they need the will save bonus as they trade AC for a couple of bonuses that don't help at all.

It's impossible for Mith's proposed changes to be a nerf, as you could buff rage by removing it from the game right now.

Okay, now that I have a bit of time...

Pure barbarian with terrifying rage and 38 CON gets 23 biteback damage, rage lasts 17-23(avg. 20) rounds, will boosted by 23, and 8 vampiric regen.

A 15 barbarian/15 whatever with terrifying rage and 38 CON gets 19 biteback damage, rage lasts the same, will boosted by 19, and 5 vampiric regen.

From that, it's assumed there's no advantage in going heavy on barbarian levels.

It's also noteworthy that to take Thundering Rage(which is already sort of a pretty crappy feat to take), you need 25 STR, which is a pretty hefty requirement if you need that CON to rank up the other rage based stats.

In comparison:
•A wizard/sorcerer gets(with 27 CL) 54+2d6 damage return with acid sheath and can get around 400-500 HP themselves, lasts longer and can be immediately re-cast. Or if an Elemental Shield, it's 27 or so.
•The will boost is pretty nifty if you're CON based, a 15/15 something 38 CON barbarian will get base(in average) 11 end game will, with no saves gear, get 30 during rage, with a few buffs and gear, it can go up to 35 and higher, making them have to roll a 1 vs majority of mind effecting effects. Although in the end, a clarity potion is still better.
•The vampiric regeneration is not something I can really comment on yet without some "field testing", but from paper, it doesn't feels very impacting due to the barbarian's average APR, and if CON based, lower AB. Plus the bugs.
•Movement speed. The best thing.

So, my pre-testing conclusion is that:

holyballsabarbarianbuff

And strangely, I don't personally feel it's enough to put it up to par with other classes. Having thought up a lot of scenarios, not a lot has changed in killing/survival potential, only chasing potential due to the movement speed buff. The rage is supposedly to make them fearsome in combat, but I'm not sure if they actually become more offensive in combat past the movement speed, and that it could go for more buffs.

By no means I mean this is a bad thing, it's great the the barbarian is finally getting the spotlight, this is just my pre-field-test conclusion, from just analyzing scenarios and theorycrafting.

Vamp regen requires a weapon at present. It won't work with creature weapons (and won't ever work unarmed). So while I might enhance it to work with creature weapons, it won't ever work for totems.

The Str/AB bonus has been replaced by biteback damage - a barbarian kills people by taking damage themselves. A mid level barbarian with rage 4 and con mod +5 will be doing 9 damage per hit, which adds up pretty fast, especially since they're also healing 4 damage once a round or so depending on how often their vamp regen fires.

But yes, if your barbarian is in a party, they -are- the tank! They should be using -guard not being guarded Their best friend is a favoured soul healer...

Jagel wrote:Is this FL-ready or will it need tweaking? (i.e. time)

It's FL-ready, but not yet been pushed live to the FL server. The code as written should 'just work' for FL, and since it keys off the presence of rage feats, it's already compatible with FL's progression system.

What if you replaced Rage level with Barbarian level? Would that be too over powered?

The immediate comparison for the new "ideal" for a barbarian that comes to mind (for me) is the old bard builds that have occasionally been popular, CON based with maxed heal and based around using Wounding Whispers + Healkit spam to kill monsters. Comparing it to that sort of build, the barbarian does less damage per hit. (I'm assuming 38 con, 20 barbarian levels for 6 rage levels, but only terrifying rage, because the other two rage feats require a fairly substantial STR investment for what's now a CON based class, for a total of 20 damage of biteback, compared to the 1d6+level that a bard gets, averaging at ~3.5+26-30, depending build specifics). The ability to do it infinite times per day is also less than useful by comparison, because one can take FS levels to get infinite wounding whispers. (Acid sheath and flame shield both also do more damage than the barbarian, as Cortex pointed out.)

A barbarian's d12s and increased HP from being con based are nice, but comparing to that FS build I mentioned, the barbarian only has 180 more HP. That isn't a negligible amount, but it's not terribly huge either, especially considering the best way to take advantage of this is to stand flatfooted while monsters hit you, spamming heal kits. Vamp Regen is, as already stated, not terribly reliable and even then you heal less than you do by spamming heal kits.

More over, by trying to tank, the Barbarian is competing with builds that do it significantly better without relying on damage shields. A fighter/PM or a monk can both get AC so much higher than average AB that they're only hit on 20s. This ends up making the AC tank more efficient, because instead of requiring a couple thousand heal kits to make it through a dungeon, the AC tank just requires a suite of multi-use wands, class abilities or w/e.


Trying to combine the damage shield with meleeing results in (essentially) a less viable fighter; Your damage shield at that point is an enhancement to normal weapon damage, but you do significantly less damage than a fighter weapon master, and have a much harder time increasing your damage without hurting your damage shield. Add to it that fighters are almost tailor-made to take WM levels, being able to take their first WM level as early as 7 if they so choose, whilst a human barbarian can't take WM levels until level 16, and WMs are one of the easiest ways to increase meleer damage. A non-human barbarian can't take their first WM level until 19. Clearly, using the damage shield as a compliment to a more traditional meleer is also non-optimal.

Just from what's said in this thread, the most viable way to make a barbarian is to take exactly three levels, go CON based and then take 27 levels of something else to make yourself more viable, whilst still reaping most of the benefits as far as rage goes, rather that be making a ranger/rogue/monk/something else focused around doing damage who can benefit from the move speed increase, or adding three levels of the FS build mentioned earlier in this post to make it even better at heal-kitting through dungeons.

tl;dr: The Barbarian's damage shield doesn't do enough to make them a viable tanking option, nor does it compete effectively with similar options from other classes. The new barbarian rage also does not serve as a terribly useful buff to a more traditional barbarian meleer, and is nullified by monsters fighting with ranged attacks or spells, which a not-insubstantial portion of PvE monsters.

You forget to factor in the barb's DR. ^^

Sneaks and crit-happy mobs will still tear barbs apart, though, going against the concept of a frenzied charging into the middle of a mob.

One possible tweak is to make barbs with one epic rage feat immune to flanking while raging. Two epic rage feats net you crit immunity while raging.

lol

Every time.

I'm still betting I'm right.

This is my caring face --->

Seriously, you may be right, you may not be. A lot depends on how reliably vamp regen works out in practice. But comparing the new barbarian to builds that don't have full AB and that have to choose between either healing or attacking doesn't seem like a sensible approach to theorycrafting. (And on FL, with damage immunity, this could be a really powerful mechanic).

I didn't think it was necessary to compare it to full BAB classes, I'll do it soon

In game, I hope, and in actual combat conditions rather than on paper

Perhaps instead of vamp regeneration, a barb could be healed something like 5-10% of their hp for each foe they kill? It could be thought of as their morale being boosted with the crushing of their foes and hearing the lamentations of their women, giving them the strength and energy to push onwards.

Trying it out in game can be rather difficult considering the general lack of the necessary characters/builds, or lack of a test area/server, so unless I work my butt off leveling a barbarian or someone with it speaks up it isn't happening too soon

So, paper theorycraft:

Example build: Barbarian 15/Fighter 12/Rogue 3, starting 18 STR/CON(with gifts), CON focused, with terrifying rage.

The barbarian

738 HP;
28 AC(no natural armor/DEX pot/shield);
34 AC(no natural armor/DEX pot);
38 AC(natural armor, DEX pot and shield);
73 HP(max CON);
42 AB(max STR);
Saves: Fort 31/Will 11/Reflex 11(max CON, no save items);
(Base weapon damage)+16+4 essence(max STR, no criticals included);
(Two handed weapon damage)+21+essence(max STR, no criticals included);
Rage: Will boosted to 30, damage return of 15, vampiric regen of 5, 50% movement speed;
DR: 11/-.

Alternatively, you could go for CoT instead of fighter, exchanging damage for saves, but won't be getting any of the CHA bonuses without some crazy stat spreading or sacrificing STR/CON. If you know of a better barbarian build feel free to speak up.

Staple 20 ftr 7 WM 3 rogue gets the following average:

45 AC(without natural armor or expertise);
48 AC(barkskin potion, no expertise);
48 AB(max STR);
558 HP(max CON);
Saves: Fort 24/Reflex 13/Will 9(no save items, max CON);
(Base Weapon Damage)+24 physical+4 essence(max STR, no criticals included).

I don't know how to properly build a paladin/BG, but it goes something like 20 Fighter/3 Rogue/7 Paladin(or BG), it gets more AC and saves than a WM, okay smiting, a bit less AB, and less physical damage/critical damage. It can beat the staple ftr/rog/WM.

PvP Scenario:

Barbarian VS Staple Scimitar WM

AB vs AC
42 AB vs 48 AC(53/58 with expertise);
38 AC(32 no shield) vs 49 AB(44/39 with expertise);

Even with IMP expertise, the WM will hit a barbarian with an adamantine tower shield without failure, while the barbarian will have to roll 16 or higher to land a blow at his highest attack. Terrifying Rage will lower the WM's AB by 2, but even then it won't last too long unless the barbarian runs around like a goofball.

Survival

The barbarian won't be able to use his vampiric regen effectively because he has to land blows to begin with, his DR of 11 and 5/- essence will only be able to mitigate 15 damage out of an average of 31.5, still taking 16.5 average damage. The WM won't be hit too often to worry about his own survival, and can even outlast the barbarian's rage if the barbarian doesn't dies first.

Damage Output

Considering the WM will land majority of his blows, suffice to say a LOT of them will critical hit, and that will hurt so much. At 3x multiplier, the average damage of a scimitar will be 96.5, that's super threatening even for 608 HP. The barbarian will struggle to land blows and they won't be too damaging, so his main source of DPS will be from his biteback damage, which happens to be 15, just about the same of the average damage of a non-critical hit from the WM against the barbarian.

UMD

A barbarian can use true strike potions/wands to try and hit the WM, however, that'll give the WM ample time to bash down the barbarian or just kite the barbarian till it wears off. Word of Faith, Flesh to Stone, etc. can be used by either with the same output.

Where a barbarian can succeed where a WM can't?

I don't know


PvE Scenario

Damage Output

The WM trumps over the barbarian in a landslide as far as melee damage goes. The only way for a barbarian to out damage a WM in PvE, is if they're completely surrounded by foes who are hitting the barbarian without doing enough damage to threaten him, and with how low the biteback damage scaling is, it will rarely make up for the it.

Survival

The barbarian should be able to reliably hit majority of mobs of his level to trigger vampiric regeneration, BUT, if the damage you're taking is greater than the HP you're making, it's probably a good idea to get more AC, which is a direct counter act to biteback damage. If they go for bite back damage and they go against more than one enemy, they might need someone to heal them frequently. A WM has tons more AC.

What the barbarian does better in PvE?

Not damaged by rippers.


pls dont hate me mith im just tryin2help

I don't at all see how you have a difference of 7 in the AB between the f/wm/r build and the barbarian build.

With 20 fighter, the fighter gets a +4 weapon compared with the +3 weapon of the barbarian, and with 7 WM the fighter gets 1 more AB than the barbarian would.

That's only a difference of 2 assuming equal builds, though the fighter arguably has a better chance of getting Epic Prowess for an extra +1. Where is all this extra AB coming from? Since you gave both of them around a +9 CON score (I can't make any sense of the HP on the barb build, since it implies a CON modifier of +9 2/3 or that you took the feat Epic Toughness, which is suboptimal), they should have around the same STR, so that can't explain the difference.

I think the fighter should still have an edge since high AB/high AC/high damage builds will always have an edge over high AB/mid AC/mid damage builds, but I can't see how the edge is anywhere near as large as you're suggesting. I don't have time now, but I am really confident that I can build a better barbarian than that. It might not be able to beat a fg 20/wm 7/rg 3 in a PvP encounter, but that's not all balance is about--in PvM practice where things aren't just 1v1 and involve a variety of encounters instead of a single rare matchup.

Just offhand, barb 15/bard 15. It would get wounding whispers to synergize with its biteback (and if you wanna really be annoying, wounding whispers stacks with any 1 of the wiz/sorc damage shields if you use a wand or scroll, so imagine the fighter taking the barb biteback + 18.5 average from WW + 21.5 average from Acid Sheath = 55 per hit with no DR, or 45 per hit with an acid and sonic defensive essence), along with all of the amazing bard buffs to boost AB, AC, and provide other effects. This is not even to mention the debuffs that it could use to attack the fighter's stated 9 will (which I am also confused about, because it is only possible if the fighter has 6 WIS).

Disclaimer: I'm not arguing whether the barbarian is a good change or not, as I don't know... I just am a bit skeptical of some of the numbers used above, along with the fact Mith mentioned that just sitting here talking about how they will do 1v1 against another build known for strength in melee is not going to show that the system is not good.

Ftr/Wm/Rogue 20 7 3

25 AB
14 from STR
4 weapon enhancement
3 weapon focuses
1 WM superior focus
1 epic prowess
------
48 AB, I feel like I'm forgetting something. Because last I remember WMs can get 50 AB with a gift heavy build.

200+70+18=288
14 CON(16 with gift)+12=28, 9 modifier, 9*30=270
270+288=588, 558 with -2 CON.

Barb/Ftr/Rogue 15 12 3
180+120+18=318
16 CON(18 with gift)+7(+1 great CON)+12=38, 14 modifier, 14*30=420
318+420=738

25 AB
10 from STR
3 weapon enhancement
3 weapon focuses
1 prowess
42

Messed up barbarian HP big time and I think I added an extra AB to WM, but it doesn't changes anything in the big picture. Editing them in.

Barb/Bard would require them to have at least 16 CHA, which would make them suffer in other areas. And I did a small test in game to see what effects rage applies, and the damage return is a "magic shield", same as Death Armor, so it may not stack(and I can't experiment because no UMD), so that is only even more theorycraft-y than my stuff

Of import, if rage/wounding/bard curse whispers are really a problem, you can dispel Wounding and do Silence.

edit: The bard/barb actually might be good for PvE, but it's so gimicky and doesn't feels like the barbarian is DOING something other than being hit.

This is a pretty huge buff. The will save alone makes a big difference, not to mention the speed. The rest is just icing on the cake. The biteback shield, combined with the barbarian DR and HP, will be nasty to deal with. Vamp regen will more than help make up the damage taken in PvE.

Seems good to me. Trying to make them beat fighter/WM/rogue builds would be silly. IMO those are a bit too good right now with 20/7/3, and they're specialized for killing things fast anyways. Barbarian right now has more utility with the speed and Terrifying Rage and the other stuff.

It's less about beating a WM, more about comparing one to the other and how useful they are, there are still pal/BG, bard, different FTR builds without WM I could compare them to. I feel that even with a buff as hefty as this, it still pales in comparison to what else is available. Terrifying Rage was always there and it's not even that great unless you're fighting lower level PCs/stuff that aren't paralyze/fear immune.

I agree the speed is the greatest thing, it gives them mobility in PvE. Though in PvP, it's less useful because it takes a whole round to activate rage.

The tl;dr of what I'm trying to say is that barbarians still can use a bit more buffing to be up to par in usefulness with the other classes/builds.

I was about to say, and then Trunx beat me to it:

F/WM/R or Bard is probably going to compare favorably to most melees out there, not because other melees are underpowered, but because I think WM is a small bit overtuned right now, due to having the drawbacks of the class largely mitigated by the fighter change and artifacts, of which I think weaponmasters really only needed one to be in a very good place. This is as much a PvE observation as it is a PvP one. The WM fills the sustained melee damage role too well with too few weaknesses (if built right) for there ever to be a reason to bring most other melees if you had to choose.

If I were to suggest one further change to barb, it would be a retooling of how all the epic rage feats work. Mighty rage and Thundering rage could use a full overhaul, and terrifying rage should have effects and the will save DC reworked to make it more useful against foes of equal level, and less crushtastic against lower level targets. My preferred approach on the latter would be to scale the DC down to top it out at around 40, make it always fear targets that fail the save regardless of level, and let it pierce mind spell immunity (but not fear effect immunity).

Is it possible to change requirements from these feats without haks?

Could lower/change Thundering Rage requirements and make it so the 2d6 sonic damage occurs every hit during rage rather than only criticals. Maybe too overpowered, but also could change the 25% deafening to another % of stun(1 round) instead.

Mighty Rage could increase the rage related math with a greater bonus? I can't think of anything else right now that'd fit nicely with what's there.

I dislike th prolonged penalty to AC. I wish there was a way to simulate the "fatigue" condition. Can using rage drain your Rest meter instead of your AC??

I don't think the -2AC is there for balance reasons at all. Not in NWN at least.

Seven Sons of Sin wrote:I dislike th prolonged penalty to AC. I wish there was a way to simulate the "fatigue" condition. Can using rage drain your Rest meter instead of your AC??

I don't think the -2AC is there for balance reasons at all. Not in NWN at least.

Drain strength and/or constitution for x number of rounds to simulate fatigue?