Monk Design Discussion

[Llopast]

Hello. Not dead. Sure it's not super high activity but the tides come and go. There are monks on Arelith and Soulhaven itself doesn't fit with every person's concept. Despite that we have consistent weekly meetings thanks to someone's character. Soulhaven also had an important part to play during the Weatherstone event, and it helped launch character arcs for at least three monks living there at the time, all of whom are still active on the server. I can say that the groundwork exists and Soulhaven can at least function in supplement to a character's story arc. But also that this is a delicate balance and if any of us drops due to real life circumstances then we might have real problems.

I can't do a comparison considering that a monk rework was announced literally before I even joined the server. But I can say that new monks that come in often have no idea a rework of the class is even happening. This happened again recently with a new and promising character which I hope does not demotivate them. I still do not know for certain the impact the rework has on our group. The majority of new promising members also being uninformed is an ominous sign however.

I hate to sound negative or discouraging but it seems pretty dead to me. Two or three players is abysmal for a location built around what was at one time a very popular class. Its good that some people are trying to keep monk RP going, but when the best quarter in the place sits empty, I'd say that's not a good sign. The fact that any new monks who do show up are blissfully unaware of the rework just goes to show that must be a major contributing factor in the decline of our monk population.

I understand the general point putting aside quarter talk. But something needed to be said because these kinds of statements create self-fulfilling prophecy. If I and everyone involved in Soulhaven and anyone thinking about it believe it is empty and doomed then it really will die. When in reality one person can put in a little effort right now and make a big difference. To despair everyone over the state of things means I won't have anyone else even considering playing with me. Even if I can point at lengthy rework development as an excuse for difficulty and failure, and have it be a reasonable enough hypothesis for people to sympathize with me, I'm not going to do that because it doesn't help. It actually makes things harder. We all bear collective responsibility for community successes and failures. The only constructive answer I can give here is one of hope. As the Dao teaches, empty space is room for growth.

Quite a delayed comment from my side, still:
It always felt for me like the Soulhaven was generally not respected by the players due to the luck of the authority and monastery rules. People could do nearly anything in the Monastery without any legal consequences:

• Teleport in, rob every single room and donation jar, teleport out;
• Own a monastery shop as a character who obviously does not belong (like open Necromancers/ Warlocks/ Myon elves );
• Gather a monster horde and stroll through the Monastery towards Guldorand or even set up a fight within the Monastery (because why not?);
• Try to govern the Monastery according to the Guldorandi or any other distant settlement law-sets;
• And, finally, the worst sin possible: Ride a horse in the Monastery!

Now imagine the monk re-work hits. People create new monk characters. They come to the place which is supposed to be their class home. They see all this circus. Their reaction:

A set of NPC-Abbot written rules that can be referenced in case of conflicts would be helpful to maintain the place more or less secured & in order. If only there would be an electable council with actual settlement-like powers or even an electable Abbot... the place might become even more competitive & popular (but who am I trying to fool? DMs will never allow monks to rule Arelith).

P.S. Please, move the in-built Soulhaven message board somewhere where it is visible & easily accessible. For example, next to the Abbot. Or between the bridges.

[Iceborn]

Wake up the gang, gang.
Something wicked this way comes.

[AstralUniverse]

Wake up the gang, gang.
Something wicked this way comes.

Heard this before. Not going to bite.

[Iceborn]

Wake up the gang, gang.
Something wicked this way comes.

Heard this before. Not going to bite.

Why don't you take a closer look?

[Iceborn]

That said - if anybody would like to help with the PGCC testing, all you have to do is just drop into the PGCC and make a character.
These are the things I'm mostly interested to hear about:
Class feeling - are the systems cryptic or just nuanced enough to feel at home in Arelith?
Does it still feel like a monk?
Can you build your current character with the new version? Is it stronger? It is weaker?
Busted class combos we didn't think about.
Fist monks vs weapon monks.

And lastly, hard numerical data.
Maximum AB/AC, APR, damage averages. CL, buff flexibility, effective combat peak duration. Anything that determines the combat potential of a character will be appreciated.

[AstralUniverse]

That said - if anybody would like to help with the PGCC testing, all you have to do is just drop into the PGCC and make a character.
These are the things I'm mostly interested to hear about:
Class feeling - are the systems cryptic or just nuanced enough to feel at home in Arelith?
Does it still feel like a monk?
Can you build your current character with the new version? Is it stronger? It is weaker?
Busted class combos we didn't think about.
Fist monks vs weapon monks.

And lastly, hard numerical data.
Maximum AB/AC, APR, damage averages. CL, buff flexibility, effective combat peak duration. Anything that determines the combat potential of a character will be appreciated.

Is there an up to date page to read about the class mechanics, numbers, stats, feats, skills, etc etc?
Also, your youtube reference is turbo cringe.

[Iceborn]

YOU are turbo cringe!

And we are still using the same old design doc.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1gLT ... KoQKc/edit

My updates are not listed as they are still experimental and we may decide to go in another direction, so for now keep tabs on both the doc and the changelog.

[AstralUniverse]

YOU are turbo cringe!

And we are still using the same old design doc.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1gLT ... KoQKc/edit

My updates are not listed as they are still experimental and we may decide to go in another direction, so for now keep tabs on both the doc and the changelog.

Yeah thanks, I always liked you too.
Not to be disrespectful of your hard work, but we've already gave mountains of feedback over this monk rework and personally I dont really appreciate having to test something that went through changes but not knowing what to expect. How do I know if my results are even working as intended or bugged? I suggest you list here what you did, even if it's experimental and may not stick.

EDIT: ok I see it now. Thanks.

[Good Character]

So far I definitely like the switch up to earning mastery points and being able to assign them as desired rather than pick feats you don't find attractive.

However, some bugs exist that I have found:

1. Despite earning a mastery point at level 4, -disc cannot be used till level 6.

2. Quivering Palm is not a 10 second CD but rather a 20 CD.

3. Quivering Palm scales at 10 + WIS mod + monk/2 rather than monk/3. I feel like this is a better change (or bug?) otherwise Quivering Palm just feels like a really bad instant attack especially with its current CD.

4. Epic Prowess isn't showing up in the bonus monk feats (if I understood the feat list here https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... id=0#gid=0).

5. Due to Brawler/Pugilist explicitly being disabled for monk you receive neither of the bonuses. APR works now but damage is still missing from Pugilist.

6. Thousand Hand Godly Fist is buggy with providing its +1 AB. From my testing it seems more consistent at masterly level for Spiritual Discipline.

So far on a 30 monk what I'm achieving for stats is:
48 AB w/o any other AB buffs (e.g. warcry, battletide, aid, etc.)
58 AC w/ ki barrier active.
41.5 average damage (assuming 4 points in Body Discipline)

[Llopast]

I liked the current mastery points system much more than the previous one.

(edited 25.09.24) Tried Nodachi 12 Monk/10 Valiant Knight/8 Fighter (4 Monk, 10 Knight, 6 Fighter pre-epic). 4 stat build + requires 1 CHA on gear for 16 CHA buffed (zoo + skleen) in total.
3 Mastery points: 2 go into the Body (for the full Ki barrier bonus), 1 into the Spirit for the will save bonus only.
Monk feats taken: Ki Barrier & Nodachi techique, 3 bonus feats were used to take Armor Skin, EWF, IWhirlwind.
Pre-epic feats: Dodge, Mobility, Spring attack, Whirlwind, SF: Discipline, WF: 2H, IC: 2H, Blind Fight, Toughness, Expertise (F), IExpertise (F), WS (F)
Epic feats: Armor Skin (M), EWF: 2H (M), IWhirlwind (M), Epic Prowess, Epic Will, Blinding speed, EWS: 2H (F), ESkF: Discipline
51 AB with the Zoo buff (+3) & Knight's Cry (+3)
60 AC, 70+ Discipline, Uncanny Dodge
Damage with the Oni Metsu no Ha is on the screenshot below (Nodachi technique feat (1d4 magic), Epic Weapon Specialization, Bless scroll (+3), 1d8 fire essense, Knight's Cry (+3), Oath of Wrath (in that case +3 against dragons), Battletide (+2 magic))

Tried nodachi 17 Monk/7 Knight/6 Fighter with more investment into spiritual feats. I have mixed feelings about it.
Tried nodachi 30 monk. I have a bad feeling about it.
Tried Nodachi 12 Monk/10 Fighter/ 8 WM. The feat scheme is similar to the 12 Monk/10 Valiant Knight/8 Fighter described above. It is ok, I guess? 52AB, high damage. Feels like there is not enough buttons to press though.

Overall, if you sacrifice monk feats for general ones you can get whirlwind or even IKnockdown, which is cool. But then you do not get essential monk feats, which is not sad, but feels weird. You can still tell your friends and family that you are a monk and you even have 12 levels in the class, but you know exactly what you really did.

Not relevant: Noticed that mastery points are granted not every 3.5 monk levels. For example, on the screen below I have 13 monk levels which is 13/3.5=3.7, but I have 3.

[Good Character]

I liked the current mastery points system much more than the previous one.

Tried Nodachi 12 Monk/10 Valiant Knight/8 Fighter (8 Monk, 8 Knight, 4 Fighter pre-epic). 4 stat build + requires 1 CHA on gear for 16 CHA buffed (zoo + skleen) in total.
3 Mastery points: 2 go into the Martial Discipline (for 1 AB & 1 DMG), 1 spare point can be spent anywhere.
Monk feats taken: Ki Barrier & Nodachi techique, 3 feats were used to take general (epic) feats.
As 2x Monk bonus pre-epic feats are used as general feats & we have 2x bonus feats from the Fighter there is enough feats to take the Whirlwind feat (and even IW on the epics instead of Epic Prowess if one wishes).
54 AB with the Zoo buff (+3), Knight's Cry (+3), Aid (+1), Battletide (+3)
60 AC, 70+ Discipline, Uncanny Dodge
Damage with the Oni Metsu no Ha is on the screenshot below (Epic Weapon Specialization, Bless scroll, 1d8 fire essense, Knight's Cry, Oath of Wrath (in that case +3 against dragons), Battletide)

Tried nodachi 17 Monk/7 Knight/6 Fighter with more investment into spiritual feats. I have mixed feelings about it.
Tried nodachi 30 monk. I have a bad feeling about it.
Tried Nodachi 13 Monk/10 Fighter/ 7 WM. The feat scheme is similar to the 12 Monk/10 Valiant Knight/8 Fighter described above. It is ok, I guess? 52AB, high damage. Feels like there is not enough buttons to press though.

Overall, if you sacrifice monk feats for general ones you can get whirlwind or even IKnockdown, which is cool. But then you do not get essential monk feats, which is not sad, but feels weird. You can still tell your friends and family that you are a monk and you even have 12 levels in the class, but you know exactly what you really did.

Noticed that mastery points are granted not every 3.5 monk levels. For example, on the screen below I have 13 monk levels which is 13/3.5=3.7, but I have 3.

Everything rounds down on NWN, so that it explains why you're not receiving the 4 mastery points.

Ice can correct me if I'm wrong but mastery points are simply given at 4, 7, 11, 14, 18, 21, 25, and 28.

[Llopast]

Noticed that mastery points are granted not every 3.5 monk levels. For example, on the screen below I have 13 monk levels which is 13/3.5=3.7, but I have 3.

Everything rounds down on NWN, so that it explains why you're not receiving the 4 mastery points.

Ice can correct me if I'm wrong but mastery points are simply given at 4, 7, 11, 14, 18, 21, 25, and 28.

Right. My mistake. 4th point should be granted at level 14.

[Iceborn]

Rounding down is correct.
I'm not too happy with the 3.5 scaling - it was originally designed to keep the same potential ratio of 8 mastery points that you could theoretically achieve pre-experiment update.
1 point every 4 levels ends with 7 at 28, which is one point short of the intended 8.
1 point every 3 levels ends with 10 at 30, which may end up being acceptable - if you are going so far as to deep dive into the class, you may as well have something to show for it.

[Good Character]

1 point every 3 levels ends with 10 at 30, which may end up being acceptable - if you are going so far as to deep dive into the class, you may as well have something to show for it.

This could go nice. I imagine the meta option automatically becomes 3 Body, 3 Spiritual, and 3 Martial, though, to obtain Balance of Discipline. Not sure if that's the intent.

An additional thought that I believe was shared previously: monk remains incredibly stat-intensive; it's a quad-stat class. The easier answer seems to be more double-stated gear. The harder and likely more controversial decision is making DEX account for damage somehow without allowing it to stack with STR.

[Kythana]

I really like the latest change! While it does make monk as a dip a bit more awkward, I think going pure and even unarmed is a lot more appealing now.

The PGCC seems pretty bugged however. I have 7 APR on unarmed monk without haste/flurry, which doesn't seem right. Additionally, I'm getting the extra APR disabled in light armor, even when I have Puglist, and the 1.5x strength damage doesn't seem to be applying.

What I appreciate the most however, is that it makes monk a lot easier to grasp and build. I only had to refer to the big chart of discipline applicable feats a few times, instead of constantly going back and forth before. Manual selection is great too, and enables the build-a-monk aspect a lot better than before. It's as easy as picking the feats associated with the right discipline and then investing in it, which is great!

---

With that being said, some other little things.

Dragon Sundering Palm is cute and all, but I don't really see anyone actually using this. Thousand Hand just seems far better in practice. The DC is super low and fortitude, I'm guessing, and the racial damage is really strict.

I'm not really a fan of the racial damage in general anyways, and would rather see something like a portion of damage for all enemy types, and the remainder for the racial types.

Overall, martial just feels like a very underwhelming domain to master. 1 sure strike, 1 ab, 1 damage and some situational damage feels very lackluster compared to 36 SR and/or 10% DI + KI barrier bonuses, along with the saving throw bonuses.

Lastly, I still am wary of god saves in pvp + extra pray as something to introduce. With 36 SR + Epic Dodge + pvp god saves + extra pray, I think this is going to result in some very silly combinations that will be a nightmare to deal with.

[Juuj]

I haven’t messed with it on pgcc yet but does meridian Yin/Yang means one could go defiler3/monk27 and have a 30 cl harm ?
Or do the same with 3 wiz/27monk and have 30cl arcane ?

[Kythana]

I haven’t messed with it on pgcc yet but does meridian Yin/Yang means one could go defiler3/monk27 and have a 30 cl harm ?
Or do the same with 3 wiz/27monk and have 30cl arcane ?

Yes, but it's only CL progression, and doesn't give you spells per day. So you only get whatever level 3 grants you for both, and any extra spells would have to be through bonus spell slots from gear.

[Llopast]

Today I tried:

1. Nodachi 21 Monk/ 9 Warpriest with Meridian Flow: Yin.
   Domains: Protection & War
   5th circle spells, 30 CL
   57 AB fully buffed, ok damage, Whirlwind*
   65 AC buffed, 65+ Discipline, Epic Dodge, 42 Spell resistance (due to the spell)
   

2. Nodachi 16 Monk/ 7 WM/ 7 Knight
   Preepic: 8 Monk/ 5 WM/ 7 Knight. 4 first monk bonus feats are used to take general feats required for the WM. Ki Barrier & Nodachi technique are taken on the epics.
   53 AB (Zoo buff, Knight's Cry (+2), Aid (+1), Battletide (+2), juicy crits, Whirlwind obviously.
   59 AC, 70+ Discipline, no Epic dodge
   Basically, feels playable. Something needs to be done with the magic protection though.

Some thoughts on building an armed monk with 12-21 Monk lvls using Fighter, Knight or WM dips:
For myself I formulized some of the most-wanted sets of abilities I consider taking:
0) Ki Barrier + Weapon technique Set. Comment: Ki barrier is 100% needed. Weapon techique is basically a better version of the Epic prowess which can be taken on pre-epics which also makes it too tasty to avoid. You take them without a doubt.

Next we have 3 optional sets:

1. Whirlwind set. Costs 4 feats to take. Comment: probably the most wanted thing. I also take Improved Whirlwind if my unbuffed AB is around 45+ and it costs me 1 AB or less to take the feat. Can be realistically skipped if you have Divine Smite + Extra Smiting;
2. Epic dodge. Costs 4 feats to take. 3 of them are bonus monk feats. Comment: generally a very useful thing. It really feels in combat which is why it looks better than the Spiritual set below;
3. Spiritual set: Prayer + Mantra +/- Serendipity + Spirit shield + Reincarnation + T3 Spiritual Discipline. Comment: Prayer, Mantra, Serendipity might not show up in the spreadsheet, but you know they are there just in case. You want to take both Spirit shield & Reincarnation, because it feels too expensive to go for the Master Spiritual Rank because of 1 ability.
   Realistically, depending on the build, you can fit 1-2 sets only. Other bonus monk feats are to be used to cover holes in your feat-starving monstrosity. 99% you cannot take both the Epic dodge & a Spiritual set due to the fact that both sets require monk specific feats which are scarce.

What I have not touched even once:
All feats in the Mind discipline;
All feats in the Body discipline except for the Ki Barrier;
Spiritual feats: Hymn (it is just too much of the pray feats, you cannot take all), Meditation, Worship, Exemplary Orator;
All the Unarmed feats (due to being Armed);
Ranger dip. Simply because Fighter/ Knight/ Cleric dips are better at this point. The only interest in Ranger from my side is the Blade Thirst +5, but the price is too high.

Have not properly experimented with the Monk/ Divine Champion builds, but 14 Monk/ 16 DC lacks both AB & dmg.

[Kroatius]

• The CL progression from Yin and Yang is still being bugged. My Shaman used to have 30 CL, now.. 23 CL. For some reason, Shaman CL overlapped over total divine caster-level bonuses.
• You get 1 mastery point at level 4, not 3. And can only use them when you reach level 6.
• I have 8 APR with all kinds of Monk weapons. Please don't ask me why I got this. It's a secret tech. You will keep your APR progression forever if you relevel, -setup or whatever, but you will lose them and gain them back in the mysterious way.
• Pugist damage is gone. Sometimes it comes back to visit me and laugh at my Shaman/Monk.
• Monk Fist damage progression is still don't like Armor.

Also please, gimme back my Shaman/Monk synergies.

[Kroatius]

• Monk feats will stick like glue until you log out or reset the server. That also means... exploits. >:)
• Can't switch between Open Hands technique and Godly Fists.

[Iceborn]

I'll try to have some of these fixed during the testing period.

Can somebody confirm that Meridian Flow arcane is working correctly?
With and without masteries.

[Llopast]

I'll try to have some of these fixed during the testing period.

Can somebody confirm that Meridian Flow arcane is working correctly?
With and without masteries.

Yesterday Eppi tried a monk/ SS build with the Meridian Flow: arcane and it did not work. Will ask him to comment here in more details.

[Iceborn]

No need. I nailed the issue.
I just needed to know I wasn't crazy and fixing things that weren't broken - or the other way around.
Will be fixed next update.

[Llopast]

No need. I nailed the issue.
I just needed to know I wasn't crazy and fixing things that weren't broken - or the other way around.
Will be fixed next update.

He had to re-log for the bonus CL to be applied.
Current PGCC pattern is build-relog-rest-re-equip.

[Iceborn]

No need. I nailed the issue.
I just needed to know I wasn't crazy and fixing things that weren't broken - or the other way around.
Will be fixed next update.

He had to re-log for the bonus CL to be applied.
Current PGCC pattern is build-relog-rest-re-equip.

I noticed this. An update for it is in the way.