Sneaky Halfling Cleric

[Beernerd81]

Fair warning: I'm clueless when it comes to building.

I'm looking to build a Halfling cleric who is capable of bluffing and sneaking around proficiently. It doesn't matter if they are combat or casting heavy, but sneakiness is a must. I was thinking Cleric/Rogue but I'm open to other classes like SD, Assassin, or anything really. Advice is appreciated.

[Dalenger]

I'll let others go into the specifics, but I'll just let you know that a build like this will have a very rough time. Clerics, as a 2+int class, are already horribly skill starved. No classes that have sneak skills go well with clerics (eg, why would you want sneak attacks or ranger spells on a cleric?). SD/Assassin are out of the question, as the skills required would be cross-class for a cleric. Clerics use full plate, which would net you huge losses to your sneaks. Dex is usually a dump stat on clerics, which also obv wouldn't go well with being sneaky.

Bottom line is, clerics aren't supposed to be sneaky. If you want to be some sort of shadowy bandage machine, you could play a traditional sneak build and use kits on your team.

[High Primate]

Stealth clerics are, pragmatically speaking, impossible unless the developers were to introduce some new class through haks. You can, however, play a caster cleric with trickery domain and load up on extended invisibilities.

[Beernerd81]

Trickery domain is a must. The whole sneaky shadowy thing is for RP. Let me clarify that subversion is actually more important than sneaking. The Cleric base class is a non-negotiable. Would it make sense to go pure cleric and just maybe take a skill focus for bluff?

[High Primate]

Would it make sense to go pure cleric and just maybe take a skill focus for bluff?

That is an absolute waste of a feat. The bonus from skill focus is negligible and will make very little difference in whether or not people would recognize your character. For that, you usually have to dump maximum ranks into bluff.

If you insist on making this build, you will have to forgo constitution for intelligence to get the available skillpoints. Since you are a non-human race, you have 30 less skillpoints to work with. If you can get 18 intelligence, you will have 60 extra skillpoints to invest in Hide/MS. For it to be effective, you'll have to get it to high levels through gear or through dexterity. Taking dexterity will probably mean you have to forgo constitution. The alternative could be a strength/con cleric whose hide/ms is enough that *most* people will not detect him. You will probably have to wear light armor, hurting your AC.

Note that this build will be mediocre in PvE (but will have a hard time soloing) and bad in PvP. I'm simply explaining how to get enough skill points for Hide/MS, and what you would have to do if you wanted it to get really high. Basically, you have to sacrifice your survivability.

[Tetra]

(nm)

[Beernerd81]

For clarity's sake, I'm just kind of tossing around ideas here. This was a very specific RP cleric concept. Build is a secondary concern.

[Thake]

I've made (copied?) a build for a player with similar wishes - among others.

The build ended with 66 Hide / MS which is enough to beat anyone NOT considerably investing into spot.

Additionally, this character can use Mass camouflage wands +10 hide, One With The Land wands +4 hide/MS, take skill focus and epic skill focus and even pick trickery domain and pump those numbers to be on par with the sneakiest guys around (103 hide / 93 ms).


Yeah, I agree, Monk/Cleric isn't that great on Arelith, not as great as elsewhere. But it still is a solid combination. Maybe not so for PvP, but PvE is a piece of cake (mostly).
The low Con is a bit of an issue, but the Cleric buffs can make up for this and the rather crappy fort save can be taken care of by using specific gear.


After all, I find this build doing well enough, as I've seen the player performing okay-ish, in terms of being sneaky and deceitful.

[perek586]

Yeah, I agree, Monk/Cleric isn't that great on Arelith, not as great as elsewhere.

Well that just isn't true lol. Monk/Cleric is god damn insane, ESPECIALLY on arelith. Heal path cleric + monk + finesse + quarterstaff is just insane. In every way.

Get 6 monk or so at most for the free knockdown. Top summons. Insane APR. Great AC. Great AB. Lacking in damage, but GMW+Divine Favour + temp+permanent essence+Divine Power with your silly APR makes it pretty crazy.

[Cortex]

The thing about monk/cleric, is that a battlecleric is a direct upgrade except against mediocre AC targets, they also get more AC iirc.

[perek586]

The thing about monk/cleric, is that a battlecleric is a direct upgrade except against mediocre AC targets, they also get more AC iirc.

They don't get more AC, and they don't get overheal, and they don't get the quarterstaff monk APR, nor free imp knockdown. WisAC+DexAC heavily outweighs shield+full plate, not even counting the APR gained from going QStaff.

It's a direct downgrade going anything else

[Lorkas]

The thing about monk/cleric, is that a battlecleric is a direct upgrade except against mediocre AC targets, they also get more AC iirc.

I don't think it's outright better AC if I remember correctly. The sources of AC that a battlecleric has that a cleric/monk can't use are the 8 base AC from full plate, the 3 base AC and +5 shield AC on a tower shield, and they get 1 of their DEX as AC, for a total of 17. If I haven't forgotten any sources of AC denied to the cleric/monk, then the cleric/monk needs their WIS+DEX to be 17 (pretty easy to do), to equal the AC of the battlecleric. I think a +14 WIS mod and a +9 DEX mod is not too outrageous when fully buffed, which would give the cleric/monk a 6 AC advantage on the battlecleric.

It's still worse overall IMO. STR based in armor will have a lot easier time of things than DEX based in cloth.

The thing about monk/cleric, is that a battlecleric is a direct upgrade except against mediocre AC targets, they also get more AC iirc.

They don't get more AC, and they don't get overheal, and they don't get the quarterstaff monk APR, nor free imp knockdown. WisAC+DexAC heavily outweighs shield+full plate, not even counting the APR gained from going QStaff.

It's a direct downgrade going anything else

They do get respectable damage. Quarterstaff damage sucks if you aren't STR based or have sneak attack damage, and you aren't getting full use out of the quarterstaff unless you sink 3 dual wielding feats into it on a feat-starved build. The battlecleric could easily spend 2 of those three feats on KD and IKD if they really want both, and still be up a feat.

Your build is fine, it's serviceable and a lot of fun, but it isn't outright better than a battlecleric.

[perek586]

I don't think it's outright better AC if I remember correctly. The sources of AC that a battlecleric has that a cleric/monk can't use are the 8 base AC from full plate, the 3 base AC and +5 shield AC on a tower shield, and they get 1 of their DEX as AC, for a total of 17. If I haven't forgotten any sources of AC denied to the cleric/monk, then the cleric/monk needs their WIS+DEX to be 17 (pretty easy to do), to equal the AC of the battlecleric. I think a +14 WIS mod and a +9 DEX mod is not too outrageous when fully buffed, which would give the cleric/monk a 6 AC advantage on the battlecleric.

It's still worse overall IMO. STR based in armor will have a lot easier time of things than DEX based in cloth.

EDITED
What would be the advantage though?

[Lorkas]

EDITED
What would be the advantage though?

Of a STR battlecleric, or of a DEX cleric/monk? The cleric/monk gets a bit more AC and could take stealth if they want, but they're worse in most other ways. It could be fun though.

[perek586]

EDITED
What would be the advantage though?

Of a STR battlecleric, or of a DEX cleric/monk? The cleric/monk gets a bit more AC and could take stealth if they want, but they're worse in most other ways.

Of the STR Battlecleric, what do they have except for STR damage boost. (which to be fair, isn't as significant as several more attacks per round when it come to average damage/round)

[Lorkas]

I'd have to see a damage comparison to be honest. I'm not convinced it will vastly outdamage a battlecleric, thought quarterstaff is pretty solid in the AB department.

[perek586]

One advantage of the battle cleric would be two extra pre-epic feats I suppose. But I would hands down take two feats for 6 AC on just about any char

[WanderingPoet]

I'm looking to build a Halfling cleric who is capable of bluffing and sneaking around proficiently. It doesn't matter if they are combat or casting heavy, but sneakiness is a must. I was thinking Cleric/Rogue but I'm open to other classes like SD, Assassin, or anything really. Advice is appreciated.

From an RP standpoint, sounds like Shadowdancer would really fit in well - if nothing else but for the HIPS so you can disappear and heal. You'll probably want at least: Hide, Move Silently, Bluff, Concentration and Tumble maxed meaning you'll need a min of 14 int (which is a bonus for access to expertise). You could get away with 19 wisdom (+5 from owls wisdom) and pump the rest into dex. Without any damage boost from ranger/rogue sneaks (outside of shadow sneak attack bonus) you'd be relying on divine favour/divine power mostly for damage.

Other problem is getting SD with cleric, you'd need to be quite high level to get 10 hide as a cross class (18 or so if I recall), so you could do a 3 dip into monk (more ac, bonus if you're using a monk weapon) or rogue (sneak attack). I'd recommend the monk for the speed boost/ac, and go healer cleric.

So off the top of my head:
22 cleric, 3 monk, 5SD - 12 str, 16 dex, 14 con, 14 wis, 14 int, 8 cha - gift of wisdom, then your next 3 points into wisdom to get it to 19. After that you can toss it all in dex.
Grab toughness, expertise/improved expertise to keep yourself alive, for RP flavour you can grab spell/greater/epic spell focus illusion for a second copy of yourself with the shadow dancer summon (but it won't be incredibly useful).
14 int would mean 88 + 18 + 40 = 146 skills across 30 levels - start with the monk to make it 164 giving you just shy of 5 maxed out skills (Move silently, hide, tumble (the not maxed one), concentration and bluff though spell craft would be a better choice).

You'll not do all that much damage but you would sneak well, be a little faster, be hard to kill by will/reflex spells. You'll want gear to boost dex/con, take a weapon finesseable weapon (such as staff) and if you go healer you'll lose 6 skill point but get some nice bonuses at no real loss. With the monk ac, buffs and high dex you'll have a higher AC than a full plate cleric, and improved expertise would give you quite a high ac overall. You'll also be pretty easily dispellable, good thing you can hide from spells. Not great in PvP but could handle itself pretty well in most PvE - but given the RP sounds like you'd be looking for a party anyhow, for all the sneaking/healing/buffing.

Alternatively 17 cleric and 10 SD would give you improved evasion and still mind making you very difficult to touch by will spells, and much harder to kill overall plus 20 skill points - at the cost of even easier dispelling, shorter buffs and weaker healing.

[PUNCHDOG]

Yeah, I agree, Monk/Cleric isn't that great on Arelith, not as great as elsewhere.

Well that just isn't true lol. Monk/Cleric is god damn insane, ESPECIALLY on arelith. Heal path cleric + monk + finesse + quarterstaff is just insane. In every way.

Get 6 monk or so at most for the free knockdown. Top summons. Insane APR. Great AC. Great AB. Lacking in damage, but GMW+Divine Favour + temp+permanent essence+Divine Power with your silly APR makes it pretty crazy.

Going to have to disagree with you. Monk/cleric has a killer Stat spread. You'll end up with subpar ac, ab, damage, and spell DCs. You'll be okay at combat at best, and only against low AC targets. Itll be even worsw than usual, if now tou need yo dip even farther in int to get the extra skills. I'm not saying the build is completely doomed, but it's certainly not god damn insane.

[perek586]

Well you're wrong about every single point there except spell DC, but I'm busy and can't be bothered arguing. Make the build on the build server and check it out fully buffed!

[Rwby]

You could take three levels of Sorcerer/Wizard as a Shadow Mage, to get access to ShadowDancer without any requirements... Plus you get a nifty familiar for free, and don't need UMD to access arcane wands/scrolls...

[Hunter548]

You could take three levels of Sorcerer/Wizard as a Shadow Mage, to get access to ShadowDancer without any requirements... Plus you get a nifty familiar for free, and don't need UMD to access arcane wands/scrolls...

Don't do this.

[One Two Three Five]

I promise you if wis/dex quarterstaff healer cleric/monks were so heart-stoppingly op they'd be the standard cleric people run instead of the 23/4/3 scimitar one. But, hey, I got fifteen minutes.

@Lorkas: You're forgetting improved expertise, which all strength clerics these days run.

@perek586:

They don't get more AC, and they don't get overheal, and they don't get the quarterstaff monk APR, nor free imp knockdown. WisAC+DexAC heavily outweighs shield+full plate, not even counting the APR gained from going QStaff.

It's a direct downgrade going anything else

Battlecleric stats to beat, from memory (23/4/3 build). For the sake of argument I'm doing travel/plant on both, since imp invis isn't 'really' ac.
Both Clerics 'Base' AC: 10 base+6 tumble+10 magic vestement+5 shield of faith+5 barkskin+1 dodge+4 haste=
41.

Battlecleric adds 11 armor+1 dex for 53, and due to having some spare feats grabs improved expertise (they all do this, if they know what they're doing/using easily available forum builds) for a total of 63 with the lights on. I'm sure there's something I'm forgetting, but whatever, the numbers are for direct comparison anyway.

Cleric/Monk (I'm assuming 24/6 due to comments about free IKD and the fact that any less than 23 cleric levels is absolute madness for this sort of thing) adds 9 maxed out dex and 15 maxed out wis, for a total of +24 with the lights running. That is, a final AC of 65.

Huh. That looks fine, except for one problem. http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Flat-foot
You don't have uncanny dodge. So, unless you're dueling one opponent, cut that final AC by 9, for 56. Roughly two points ahead of a non-IE strength cleric. Note: This assumes you never modify your 14+2 gift dex, which, you shouldn't, because you lack uncanny dodge.

So, a tie, with battlecleric losing when out of IE, and winning against more than one target.

So, AB Fight:
Both get: Divine power ('20' BaB, I guess) +5 epic, 5 divine favor, 2 battletide, 3 Mdamask weapon, 3 epic weapon focus: 38
Battlecleric: 7 str mod+6 buff mod: 51 AB. APR of: 51/46/41/51/51
Cleric/Monk: 3 dex+6 buff, -2 dual wield: 45. APR of (should be) 45/43/41/39/37/45/45 (main hand) 45/43 (off hand). You can get to 10 APR if you hit flurry but that's another -2 drop. Mileage.
So, AB is worse but you get more attacks.

Damage:
Both get etc. Comes to, like, +20 or something. Lets pretend it's 20, I'm getting kind of bored. Essences, spells, etc. This isnt the right number but it's round.
Battlecleric adds: 6 epic weapon spec, 7 str mod, 6 buff mod, 3.5 scim average- 42.5 at a higher AB, generally. Crits on a 16 for 85.
Cleric/Monk adds: 4 (divine power strength)+3.5 (main hand average or 4.5 offhand average), for a total of 27.5 or 28.5. Crits on a 19 for 57.

So, battlecleric does more damage raw. With five attacks, assuming all hit, 1 crit (25% chance, give or take?), damage ooooof.. 255. Assuming all of a cleric/monks hit (this is being extremely kind, however) 277.

Difference is, then, relatively negligible minus two thorny problems: all of your attacks aren't going to hit, meaning the higher AB str-cleric will come out with more damage, one- and the low base damage of the cleric/monk is more prone to get outright ignored due to DR, immunities, etc. Death by a thousand cuts has never worked super well here.

Other stuff, ie, the elephant: A human gets eight feats. For a cleric/monk finesse quarterstaffer, you lose 4 of those feats getting dual wield running. 6 monk gets you IKD (at, like, level 29.....), so lets pretend that means you only 'lose' 2 feats. But you still need, to be 'competitive' to a battlecleric in melee: blind fight, weapon focus, improved critical. This leaves you with one selectable feat pre-epic. The battlecleric needs not lose 4 feats off top, and gains another 2 from pre-epic fighter levels to boot. So, it wins on feats.

A battlecleric, as well, should only lose 2ish AC when flatfooted (1 dex, 1 dodge), vs 10 (9 dex, 1 dodge) give or take on the monk.

And, finally: Choices and restrictions. No uncanny dodge, no umd, way less skill points, and a stricter stat spread, on the Cleric/Monk. You could take fighter and shore up your incredibly lacking feats- at the expense of 3-4 more lost cleric levels, making a dispel-bait character option even worse (battleclerics can shore this up with abjuration defense because they've got extra feats), or you take rogue, get umd (I can't, at this point, play chars without umd) and uncanny dodge, and your skill points and have the same 'dispel bait' problem.

Also, the str cleric is going to have more discipline and raw AB so if it's an IKD fight between the two, welllll. Getting knocked over is the same as being flatfooted, innit?

DISCLAIMER: I didn't account for spell focuses on the cleric/monk, because you Need every spare point of wis you can get, so almost all epic feats that weren't otherwise dedicated (epic focus, etc) were spent maxing out that wisdom score. If you want spell focuses, epic spells, etc, you're going to see your AC drop a few points, ruining that anti-armor edge. I also didn't account for the battlecleric's 2d6 sneak attack, which would've flipped the damage gap: 290 on the battlecleric.

tl;dr: Cleric/Monk can get better AC when not flat-footed, and can deal more damage against low AC targets, but the battlecleric deals more raw damage at higher AB, is less starved for feat and skill options. Pound for pound I'd take the battlecleric over the cleric/monk any day, because I consider UMD and a hefty heal score better, frankly, than anything the healer path can muster. Also, the battlecleric has more feat and weapon flexibility. (You could however skip the q-staff on the cleric/monk, max out at 8 APR, and gain 2 AB and 3 feats! It's not uncanny dodge but it's something.) Also, the str-cleric is more 'battle ready' prebuffed, if that matters to you. It'll have an easier time leveling, too.

tl;dr2: So, really, it depends on what you like. They're fairly even barring my, erh, personal preferences. Of course, there's not a category for 'getting called cheesy on the forum for having monk levels on a wis-caster class,' but know that the battlecleric wins that fight every single time.

But for a stealth cleric I wouldn't recommend the monk/cleric unless you Really don't care about any of the above! You'd need higher int for hide/ms, rogue levels, etc! A dex-y cleric/rogue/fighter with a large shield on the offhand might work? You'll have a rough time, though, as above.

[Lorkas]

@Lorkas: You're forgetting improved expertise, which all strength clerics these days run.

I didn't forget it, and I don't know why you would assume a DEX cleric/monk wouldn't take it also. I guess cleric/monk is pretty feat-starved if it goes for dual-wielding feats? Yea, if the cleric/monk can't fit in IE, then it is just strictly worse, apart from the stealth ability and maybe damage per round.

[Rwby]

You could take three levels of Sorcerer/Wizard as a Shadow Mage, to get access to ShadowDancer without any requirements... Plus you get a nifty familiar for free, and don't need UMD to access arcane wands/scrolls...

Don't do this.

Why not?