Deep Imaskari are not evil Underdarkers, but are treated like they are.

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Jack Oat
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Deep Imaskari are not evil Underdarkers, but are treated like they are.

Post by Jack Oat »

TL;DR: Give Deep Imaskari access to Surface functions (i.e. Laurick/Writs/etc.)


Every time a Deep Imaskari nears a settlement they're greeted with the same message: "As you near the settlement you attract a few odd looks." The same start to the message as Outcasts get. Laurick tells them to get the Hells off his ship, and that he'll have nothing to do with their kind! The Registry Agent delivers a similar line telling them that he doesn't interact with their kind! Quite clearly, all of these messages point to the same conclusion: Deep Imaskari are regarded as vile Underdarkers in the same likeness as Outcasts.

But that's not true lore-wise, and more-or-less forces them into Underdark RP since they can't partake in anything else due to mechanical restrictions. In fact if we look at the Arelith Wiki (which copies most of the information from the FR Wiki) we see a precedent of Deep Imaskari having very different personalities from the typecasts of most Underdarkers:
Arelith Wiki wrote:"[...]The deep Imaskari have long managed to conceal the existence of their hidden kingdom even from other Underdark races by enforcing complete separation."

"[...]a few deep Imaskari have begun to wander the deep ways of the world that their ancestors fled long ago."

"[...]The deep Imaskari have taken pains to keep their existence secret from every other race of Faerûn, so they have little real experience with humans, dwarves, and other races. Deep Imaskari encountered outside Deep Imaskar are curious and excited to meet members of other races."

"While the Imaskari of ancient times are generally regarded as evil, abomination-creating, devil-dealing people (which was probably true), the folk descended from the survivors in Deep Imaskar are mostly neutral. The Great Seal that kept Deep Imaskar separate from the rest of the Underdark was opened recently to begin the process of reengaging in commerce and communication with the world outside, not to enable any sort of deep Imaskari conquests."
What this demonstrates is that Deep Imaskari are by no means an evil race. In fact it explicitly says that most are Neutral and that the purpose of their coming out was pointedly not for any form of conquest.


An understandable counter-argument is, "how would a Surfacer know the difference?" And the answer is simple: the Deep Imaskari are still Human.

While it would certainly be weird for a common Surfacer to look at a Human with stone-like skin and spindly hair who has- over the course of thousands of years- been magically transformed, it doesn't make sense on a setting like Arelith for them to flat-out refuse travel to them while then turning around and offering the Surfacer Tiefling with wings, horns, and red skin (this is an example, not a reference to a specific player/character) full services.


As stated earlier, these mechanical restrictions more-or-less force Deep Imaskari into Underdark RP. While technically yes, they can go to the Surface, they can't use any of the functions that Outcasts and Underdarkers are barred from. This means that if their party decides to go from Cordor to Brogendenstein to interact in RP, the Deep Imaskari had best either be an Epic Transmuter to teleport there, drop the 3500 coin to teleport, or run up to the nearest source portal and use that. All massive inconveniences when compared to the 150gp ride from Cordor's docks to Brogendenstein's. While this is just one example, it also boils over to being excluded from RP if a settlement enables the "no outcast" policy via their registrar (if that's a thing-- I heard it was, but that's speculation on my part), and they also can't take any writs to level with Surfacers so their leveling is forced to the Underdark to be most efficient.


With all of this in mind, my suggestion/feedback/request is that Deep Imaskari be allowed access to Surface functions as well as Underdarkers. They're a Greater Reward as is. I can understand maybe not wanting them to have access to both writ systems (maybe?), but barring them from an entire section of the server, essentially, really limits the RP and doesn't fit the lore/canon of the race.

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Re: Deep Imaskari are not evil Underdarkers, but are treated like they are.

Post by Faint »

I agree wholeheartedly. Regarding the concerns of allowing them to access both writ systems, I think that's readily solved by a script that accounts for writs they've accepted in other locations.

If the variable that counts how many writs you've taken in a span of 19 hours is modified to account for writs taken in any location, Surface or Underdark, then you could reliably permit them to accept writs from either location.

This would permit them to, for example, accept 2 writs from the Surface and 1 from the Underdark, and vice versa. It'd still bear the standard 3 cap per 19 hours, and no issue would be had.
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Re: Deep Imaskari are not evil Underdarkers, but are treated like they are.

Post by flower »

I see the issue rather being when someone sees Imaskari asking "what the hell is this thing" :D
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Re: Deep Imaskari are not evil Underdarkers, but are treated like they are.

Post by Jack Oat »

flower wrote: Mon Dec 17, 2018 11:13 am I see the issue rather being when someone sees Imaskari asking "what the hell is this thing" :D
Jack Oat wrote: Mon Dec 17, 2018 10:53 amWhile it would certainly be weird for a common Surfacer to look at a Human with stone-like skin and spindly hair who has- over the course of thousands of years- been magically transformed, it doesn't make sense on a setting like Arelith for them to flat-out refuse travel to them while then turning around and offering the Surfacer Tiefling with wings, horns, and red skin (this is an example, not a reference to a specific player/character) full services.

"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

Garrbear wrote:

quite bluntly we can't balance the server around people who don't play well

Irongron wrote:

My main takeaway from this is that Jack is apparently personable

Zed
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Re: Deep Imaskari are not evil Underdarkers, but are treated like they are.

Post by Zed »

As a deep imaskari I approve of this message,


Also I feel like a lot of the Deep imaskari things arent intentional choices but are in fact oversights based non implementation.
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Re: Deep Imaskari are not evil Underdarkers, but are treated like they are.

Post by CptJonas »

Zed wrote: Mon Dec 17, 2018 12:01 pm As a deep imaskari I approve of this message,


Also I feel like a lot of the Deep imaskari things arent intentional choices but are in fact oversights based non implementation.
Exactly...I think its all becouse there are like 1% off player base playing imaskari (pls dont get into that...there are allready like 10 posts about buffing and changing imaskari to make them atlest onpar with normal subraces :D ) so they dont get too much love and time from dev team (even tho its understandable, we dont need to like it)....
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Re: Deep Imaskari are not evil Underdarkers, but are treated like they are.

Post by Halibutthead »

While I'm not going to disagree with your point, jack, i do want to point out that your source contains exactly one line about their alignment, and a whole bunch of text about why no one else would know.
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Re: Deep Imaskari are not evil Underdarkers, but are treated like they are.

Post by CptJonas »

Halibutthead wrote: Mon Dec 17, 2018 1:50 pm While I'm not going to disagree with your point, jack, i do want to point out that your source contains exactly one line about their alignment, and a whole bunch of text about why no one else would know.
Actualy.....he doesnt need to.
Point is...nearly noobody on surface even know who Imaskari are. They shouldnt know if they are good or bad....So...ergo they shouldnt have problems with them. (in RP, that imaskari could say to boat man "I am human from land on far east off world, we are all like this" or "I have skin disease" and said boat man should not have reason to not belive him)
And even those who know who imaskari are...they shouldnt have problem with them...quite oposite....they will more likely try to befriend them and try to lure some forgoten arcane knowledge from them, or location off his town...especialy mages will do that...
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Re: Deep Imaskari are not evil Underdarkers, but are treated like they are.

Post by Durvayas »

At the same time, there are a couple questions to be begged.

1. Why wouldn't people look at Imaskari with sideeye when clearly they've never had the sun on their skin? They should be pale-er than vampires.

2. If you are playing an imaskari, why would you be going on the surface, and why is an imaskari PC so comfortable using mass transit in such an alien environment?

3. Why blow a reward and generate an imaskari in the first place if you're just going to run around in cordor and do writs?

End of the day, Imaskari are underdarkers, and laurick knows full well who is an underdarker or not. Maybe he doesn't know the difference between an outcast and an imaskari, and I imagine most wouldn't. Its not a stretch to assume underdark human== evil, when you have so many outcasts running around Arelith.
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Re: Deep Imaskari are not evil Underdarkers, but are treated like they are.

Post by CptJonas »

Durvayas wrote: Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:11 pm At the same time, there are a couple questions to be begged.

1. Why wouldn't people look at Imaskari with sideeye when clearly they've never had the sun on their skin? They should be pale-er than vampires.

2. If you are playing an imaskari, why would you be going on the surface, and why is an imaskari PC so comfortable using mass transit in such an alien environment?

3. Why blow a reward and generate an imaskari in the first place if you're just going to run around in cordor and do writs?

End of the day, Imaskari are underdarkers, and laurick knows full well who is an underdarker or not. Maybe he doesn't know the difference between an outcast and an imaskari, and I imagine most wouldn't. Its not a stretch to assume underdark human== evil, when you have so many outcasts running around Arelith.
¨
1) There are weirder things runing around cordor :D

2) Bcs its said in their lore....Those who leave Deep imaskar are adventurers, explorers,...."Imaskari are curious and excited to meet members of other races due to their isolated background"....those who would like to stay in dark and read books all day never leaved Deep Imaskar.

3) Bcs you want to RP as imaskari....all point off this topic is to say...this race isnt bound to underdark RP, this isnt just way to spend your greater reward to play wizzard with +2 in in underdark....


And...."Its not a stretch to assume underdark human== evil, when you have so many outcasts running around Arelith" Dont go into that....or I will again start topic like "Ban outcasts", "Move outcasts to 5% or Greater reward".....It isnt problem off deep imaskari race that like 45% off underdark are human outcasts bcs off mechanical benefits...
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Re: Deep Imaskari are not evil Underdarkers, but are treated like they are.

Post by Halibutthead »

CptJonas wrote: Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:25 pm And...."Its not a stretch to assume underdark human== evil, when you have so many outcasts running around Arelith" Dont go into that....or I will again start topic like "Ban outcasts", "Move outcasts to 5% or Greater reward".....It isnt problem off deep imaskari race that like 45% off underdark are human outcasts bcs off mechanical benefits...
You can start that topic all you want, but it still won't address the valid argument that he made
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Re: Deep Imaskari are not evil Underdarkers, but are treated like they are.

Post by CptJonas »

Halibutthead wrote: Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:59 pm
CptJonas wrote: Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:25 pm And...."Its not a stretch to assume underdark human== evil, when you have so many outcasts running around Arelith" Dont go into that....or I will again start topic like "Ban outcasts", "Move outcasts to 5% or Greater reward".....It isnt problem off deep imaskari race that like 45% off underdark are human outcasts bcs off mechanical benefits...
You can start that topic all you want, but it still won't address the valid argument that he made
Sure...
But...
1) I hope we can all agree that imaskari not having acces to surface services is more likely to be more on mechanical part off stuff then RP/lore...

2) From RP/Lore wiew...its totaly fine not having acces to writs (that shouldnt be done anyways), but boats, and other services should be fine...Agent off some organisation could have problem with you....but some boat captain? Merchant on streets? Etc.....comoners shouldnt have problem with you...After all...you are not outcast...
Problem what people have with outcasts inst about them being humans who live in uderdark..its about being "outcast" ergo someone who have done some bad and unforgivable stuff in past....
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Re: Deep Imaskari are not evil Underdarkers, but are treated like they are.

Post by Jack Oat »

Durvayas wrote: Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:11 pm At the same time, there are a couple questions to be begged.

1. Why wouldn't people look at Imaskari with sideeye when clearly they've never had the sun on their skin? They should be pale-er than vampires.
Arelith Wiki wrote:"A deep Imaskari appears mostly human. Her skin looks pale and stonelike, as if expertly sculpted from the finest veined marble, though it is as soft as human skin to the touch."
So basically they're humans with stone-like skin. Grey skin. Like Moon Elves, Svirfneblin, and some types of Half-Orc. Let alone the existence of (as I cited earlier) Tieflings with red or other skin who Laurick and other NPCs seem fine working with.
Durvayas wrote: Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:11 pm2. If you are playing an imaskari, why would you be going on the surface, and why is an imaskari PC so comfortable using mass transit in such an alien environment?
Arelith Wiki wrote:"Deep Imaskari encountered outside Deep Imaskar are curious and excited to meet members of other races"
To explore, because it's more convenient/safer than wandering the hostile countryside on their own, to see how advanced said "mass transit" is in this "alien environment." As for going to the Surface, because that's where they are originally from. The Imaskar Empire was not an Underdark Empire. Unlike the more Underdark races, they don't suffer penalties or disparities when they go to the Surface. Plus, the point of leaving as a Deep Imaskari is to explore, learn things, communicate with the world, and potentially conduct commerce.
Durvayas wrote: Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:11 pm3. Why blow a reward and generate an imaskari in the first place if you're just going to run around in cordor and do writs?
Counter-point: Why blow a reward and generate an Ogre in the first place if I'm just going to run around in Andunor and do writs?
This question makes no sense and takes two seconds of review thought to dismiss. The answer is: because it fits the race. Both sides fit the race. That's the point.
Durvayas wrote: Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:11 pmEnd of the day, Imaskari are underdarkers, and laurick knows full well who is an underdarker or not. Maybe he doesn't know the difference between an outcast and an imaskari, and I imagine most wouldn't. Its not a stretch to assume underdark human== evil, when you have so many outcasts running around Arelith.
End of the day, Imaskari have adapted to life in the Underdark, but pointedly kept their isolation from the races of the Underdark and, contrary to the usual evil of Underdarkers, shifted to a more "neutral" aligned civilization. It's also not a stretch to assume that "Human-ish thing with Devil wings, tail, horns, and red skin" is evil, but he still lets them through. Should Tieflings not be allowed? What about Half-Orcs, since half of them is Orc and Orcs are evil?

Overall these points don't really seem to be thought out. They come across as knee-jerk reactionary comments.
Halibutthead wrote: Mon Dec 17, 2018 1:50 pm While I'm not going to disagree with your point, jack, i do want to point out that your source contains exactly one line about their alignment, and a whole bunch of text about why no one else would know.
One line explicitly states their alignment preference, yes. The rest of the text was chosen not just because of the "no one knows" capacity, but because I feel they provide backing for why Deep Imaskari shouldn't really be considered an Underdark-only race, such as:
Arelith Wiki wrote:"[...]The deep Imaskari have long managed to conceal the existence of their hidden kingdom even from other Underdark races by enforcing complete separation."
Which outlines how they remained isolated from the other Underdark races, not taking part in the various ongoings/activities that make them evil/define the usual "cast" in which we set Underdarkers.
Arelith Wiki wrote:"[...]a few deep Imaskari have begun to wander the deep ways of the world that their ancestors fled long ago."
While this is up for debate, I took this to refer to the lands that once made up the Imaskar Empire such as Thay, Mulhorand, and Unther. "Why would your Deep Imaskari be all the way out here then?" Doesn't matter, come up with an RP reason. But those places that I think they went to explore were all Surface areas.
Arelith Wiki wrote:"[...]The deep Imaskari have taken pains to keep their existence secret from every other race of Faerûn, so they have little real experience with humans, dwarves, and other races. Deep Imaskari encountered outside Deep Imaskar are curious and excited to meet members of other races."
The emphasis here, for me, was how it mentioned "Humans, Dwarves" as Surfacer races they were excited to meet, as well as "curious and excited to meet members of other races" which struck me as a fine reason for them to both go to the Surface (again adding to the point that they aren't truly Underdarkers in the traditional sense) and a textual reference of their general racial goals that weren't evil (adding to the point that they aren't inherently evil).
Arelith Wiki wrote:"The Great Seal that kept Deep Imaskar separate from the rest of the Underdark was opened recently to begin the process of reengaging in commerce and communication with the world outside, not to enable any sort of deep Imaskari conquests."
This is attached to the one line you mention as including the alignment, but it's worth stating separately. Unlike the various Underdark races who generally have some sort of expansionist ambition, Deep Imaskari are specifically mentioned as not being expansionist and that they want to see "the world outside."


Overall the point I was mainly trying to make is that not only are Deep Imaskari not considered a canonically "evil" race, but in truth they shouldn't really be considered a wholly "Underdark" race in the traditional sense, either. They don't have tendencies that fit many of the other Underdark races solely, but rather that could fit either Underdark or Surface typecasts.
flower wrote: Mon Dec 17, 2018 11:13 am I see the issue rather being when someone sees Imaskari asking "what the hell is this thing" :D
I've alluded enough that there are myriad other times when people should ask "what the hell is this thing" without immediately jumping to "it must be evil" as a conclusion.

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Garrbear wrote:

quite bluntly we can't balance the server around people who don't play well

Irongron wrote:

My main takeaway from this is that Jack is apparently personable

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Re: Deep Imaskari are not evil Underdarkers, but are treated like they are.

Post by Durvayas »

To be quite frank, the entire arguement sort of seems to come across as "I want to play an underdark human who is not an outcast, but enjoys the mechanical benefits of being an outcast with none of the penalties."

I don't see any good reason that any NPC with a lore under 30 would be able to tell the difference between a pale outcast human and this slightly weirder looking underdark human. Tieflings are common; Imaskari, are not, and given the population of outcasts on the server, I don't see how the distinction would be easily made between "This guy eats babies" and "This guy looks a lot like the other guys who eat babies, but is cool anyways."

Also worth noting that a couple of the recent raids have had imaskari among the attacking forces.
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Re: Deep Imaskari are not evil Underdarkers, but are treated like they are.

Post by magistrasa »

I think they should get the Svirfneblin treatment personally (though maybe without the option to start on the surface). Both are little-known, isolationist underdarkers who lean towards neutrality and primarily interact with the surface out of curiosity or the need for trade. Svirf got that generic underdarker monochrome complexion and everything, but they're not greeted on the surface like, "Yikes, it's a small misshapen drow! Kill it!" I don't imagine the Imaskari as much different from them, but I also don't know how PCs interact - which I think is an unaddressed factor here. What is the general roleplay experience for the Imaskari on the surface, beyond the inconveniences caused by being tied to the outcast system?

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Re: Deep Imaskari are not evil Underdarkers, but are treated like they are.

Post by CptJonas »

magistrasa wrote: Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:59 pm I think they should get the Svirfneblin treatment personally (though maybe without the option to start on the surface). Both are little-known, isolationist underdarkers who lean towards neutrality and primarily interact with the surface out of curiosity or the need for trade. Svirf got that generic underdarker monochrome complexion and everything, but they're not greeted on the surface like, "Yikes, it's a small misshapen drow! Kill it!" I don't imagine the Imaskari as much different from them, but I also don't know how PCs interact - which I think is an unaddressed factor here. What is the general roleplay experience for the Imaskari on the surface, beyond the inconveniences caused by being tied to the outcast system?
I will sing uder this....I allways forget about those little buggers :D
They are actualy great argument in this topic...

And about Imaskari experience on surface...cant tell much, probably as 99.99% population (there are like what? 1-2 Imaskari on server? :D), but I gues if PCs are ok with outcasts on surface there should be basicly no problem with Imaskari
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Re: Deep Imaskari are not evil Underdarkers, but are treated like they are.

Post by Mythical »

I find it odd that a boat captain would take a tiefling on board personally.
"Oh.. red skin, horns, tail... looks a lot like a devil, sure come on aboard where you headed!!"
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Re: Deep Imaskari are not evil Underdarkers, but are treated like they are.

Post by Zed »

As an imaskari on the surface I can confirm that PCs will give you odd looks but not know how to deal with you. So they seem to, at this point in time err on civility vs noncivility.

This is just due to the fact that imaskari are generally friendly to everyone

On a side note the drow act the same way because theres no reason to be rude to them
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Re: Deep Imaskari are not evil Underdarkers, but are treated like they are.

Post by Xarge VI »

I actually think discussing if the Deep Imaskari should be treated as underdarkers or not can be harmful as it can unintentionally set an OoC standard on how to react to them.

I'd much rather see the deep Imaskari create their own reputation, as majority of characters wouldn't know what those pale freaks are that keep emerging from the cracks of the earth to ask stupid questions.
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Re: Deep Imaskari are not evil Underdarkers, but are treated like they are.

Post by The Rambling Midget »

Xarge VI wrote: Mon Dec 17, 2018 11:44 pmI actually think discussing if the Deep Imaskari should be treated as underdarkers or not can be harmful as it can unintentionally set an OoC standard on how to react to them.
I have to agree. Tieflings are also often treated like evil underdarkers, not because they're necessarily evil or from Andunor, but because they're an unknown. That's part of the charm of playing one. If Deep Imaskari are feared, because they're new and no one knows what to expect, that should be encouraged. Players too often have a blase response to things that their characters should normally be fearful of, or at least curious about.
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Re: Deep Imaskari are not evil Underdarkers, but are treated like they are.

Post by Jack Oat »

Xarge VI wrote: Mon Dec 17, 2018 11:44 pm I actually think discussing if the Deep Imaskari should be treated as underdarkers or not can be harmful as it can unintentionally set an OoC standard on how to react to them.

I'd much rather see the deep Imaskari create their own reputation, as majority of characters wouldn't know what those pale freaks are that keep emerging from the cracks of the earth to ask stupid questions.
The issue, and my point here, is that they face greater difficulties in setting any reputation other than being Underdarkers due to the mechanics preventing them from doing so.

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Re: Deep Imaskari are not evil Underdarkers, but are treated like they are.

Post by CptJonas »

Xarge VI wrote: Mon Dec 17, 2018 11:44 pm I actually think discussing if the Deep Imaskari should be treated as underdarkers or not can be harmful as it can unintentionally set an OoC standard on how to react to them.

I'd much rather see the deep Imaskari create their own reputation, as majority of characters wouldn't know what those pale freaks are that keep emerging from the cracks of the earth to ask stupid questions.
Thats whole point of this topic :D They are treated as undedarkers from NPC from default which allready sets them OCC...
They should be on neutral ground from PC view as from NPC view....Atleast until some grey freak drops magic nuke on Cordor :D
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Re: Deep Imaskari are not evil Underdarkers, but are treated like they are.

Post by Zed »

The issue isnt PC treatment, but NPC treatment from what I gather
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Re: Deep Imaskari are not evil Underdarkers, but are treated like they are.

Post by Jack Oat »

Zed wrote: Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:28 am The issue isnt PC treatment, but NPC treatment from what I gather
Correct.

"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

Garrbear wrote:

quite bluntly we can't balance the server around people who don't play well

Irongron wrote:

My main takeaway from this is that Jack is apparently personable

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Re: Deep Imaskari are not evil Underdarkers, but are treated like they are.

Post by Infinite Solutions »

They're not evil Underdarkers (for the most part) but they are from the Underdark. That's enough to instill fear in most NPCs, I think. The Underdark is a hostile place and being from there should arouse suspicion.

I play one and I'm not bothered by the restriction. Even if they're not malicious they're alien and weird, probably unsettling and untrusted to Laurick and other NPCs. It adds to the exoticness, they are aliens on unfamiliar turf. As a tradeoff they have full access to Anundor and the Underdark. I can see it being annoying if they base themselves in Cordor and want to quickly travel to Brog or Sibiyad a lot but even then, running to the Arcane Tower and teleporting isn't so bad and again, they are visitors from a hostile land.

At the same time if one or more Deep Imaskari is to achieve a level of fame and trust on the surface it might be nice to see more access open up. Earning it through RP, I mean.
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