The BG Bulls tweak

[Twohand]

"The Blackguard Bull's Strength feat now lasts a number of turns equal to caster level. Once the Blackguard has reached class level 10, the feat's duration is once again measured in hours per caster level."

I fail to see the logic behind this nerf which seemed to be targeted at Blackguard dips. This dip was already somewhat inferior to the paladin one, now it has lost some more value. That +4 STR was such a nice quality of life for a tri-stat build, but now having to wait 6 minutes between each casting is a little annoying, specially during dungeon crawling. Any chance this could be reverted or at least have the duration of the buff increased pre-level 10?

It's no big deal, I know, but this tweak seems unwarranted, however I understand I may not be seeing the larger picture here, am I wrong?

[The Rambling Midget]

I think it's meant to mirror the AoG nerf, which now also requires a majority of Paladin levels, rather than a dip.

[Twohand]

The Aura of Glory nerf is something I also don't get. Why is it a thing?

[yellowcateyes]

The Aura of Glory nerf is something I also don't get. Why is it a thing?

Hi there. You are correct in that those tweaks were targeted at divine dips, both Paladin and Blackguard.

An assortment of changes over the past few years have made it easier to hit the soft cap on multiple stats. Among other things, these changes include the Transmutation school rework; the addition of new gearing options through crafting, loot, and runes; and changes in dweomercraft that made both dweomercrafters and wand/potion creators all the more common. And, of course, the Paladin and Blackguard reworks themselves - duration changes and cooldowns, although targeted at characters dedicated to both classes, incidentally made it easier for dips to maximize their relevant stats.

The net result is that solving the multi-attribute dependency problem is easier than ever. I feel this affects the meta in unhealthy ways, where simple and focused characters see diminishing returns, while dipping into a divine class and/or adding another dependent attribute is less and less costly.

These, and possibly future, changes are not aimed at eliminating or significantly curtailing divine dips. Rather, they are meant to reel back the ease in which one can max three or four stats.

[JubJub]

Think its meant to be a reward for people not wanting to just take a dip.

[TimeAdept]

Change feels heavy handed - this could have been accomplished by pushing the hour duration to 5 or 6 - all BG dip builds are going to stop at 3 or 4 for various other class synergy reasons. Pre epic BG focuses didn't need this nerf to their mid-level uptime.

Paladin remains the stronger dip due to fear immunity and disease immunity imo

[Jagel]

Perhaps make it hours for characters with at least 1/3 if their lvls in bg?

[Disciprine Come From Within]

I feel this nerf doesn't work as well as the idea it's based on thinks it does. Charisma vs Strength is a very apples to oranges stat difference. Furthermore, it hinders the class you want to put more investment into. For 9 levels of the career, in a class that you can't really start investing into until level 7 at least, this change is not fun to have until at least level 17. That's the only way I can look at it. Maybe it if was something that was hours/3 levels until 10 or something? That way it's usable for decent investment pre 10, lasts 6 minutes for the classic dip, which means half the time you won't have it and have to constantly rebuff with it, and once you hit at least level 6, you won't feel hindered, though you will still rebuff often.

[Astral]

I played a paladin-dip build and managed to max my str/con/cha with gear and spells without even wearing Templar suit or celestial crown... and BG could do the same thing. Both of these nerfs to AoG and Bg's bull mean divine class dips are more limited in their gear uptions as a trade for the bonuses they get from their primary class build (which is often fighter who straight up gives more ac). I also agree with Time Adept that the duration of the Bull's can be switched to hours at an earlier lvl to not hurt heavy bg builds in their pre-epic leveling.

[CosmicOrderV]

As someone else put it in a prior thread (concerning bards, of all things) I think this change was not the 'elegant' solution. This seems more like a band-aid until a more thorough re-work is implemented.

[Kuma]

Perhaps make it hours for characters with at least 1/3 if their lvls in bg?

That's functionally already the case. Because it's a PrC, you're gonna be hitting higher BG levels much later than, say, a paladin or ranger (other classes with abilities that work off level percentages). By the time you have 1/3rd+ of your levels as BG you're likely near the point it switches to hours anyway.

[Jagel]

Hm true. 1/4 then?

[Kuma]

Hm true. 1/4 then?

That could work.