Greyport Accessibility

[magistrasa]

A sentiment I hear a lot is that even though Greyport is now a district, it's still kind of an annoyance to actually get there. Either you pay 5 gold to take the gondola (yes, a miniscule amount, I agree), or you teleport to the Slum Caverns and make the walk there. These may sound like First World Problems, but since the layout Greyport hasn't really been changed much at all with the update (aside from the bar), and there wasn't much player traffic there before, it's still not enough for people to consider going there to shop or to roleplay without thinking, "Ugh, what a journey."

It's probably all psychological, but even still, I think the Slum Caverns portal destination should not exist be moved closer to the entrance to Greyport so that it encourages more traffic to that district.

[Durvayas]

The problem with the greyport district isn't how it looks, but that it was added later, clearly only as a measure to deal with overpopulation, and while thematic, its location actually doesn't make any sense with how one would normally build a city.

It needs road access to the wheel, where the bulk of the city's mercantile actually happens(because of the hub).

Otherwise, it needs an underdarker only portal, so that getting there is as simple as using the hub portal.
Because of the annoying nature of reaching it, shops have never done well in the port district. I don't really see how adding a district house increases traffic by a measurable amount. The tavern is a nice touch, but I feel like it won't help much due to the location, and the quarter that is pretty obviously meant to be a bar (west wheel, first door on the right leaving the hub) that has had players trying to make it function like a bar for the last three years, could have used the upgrade to a functional tavern itself.

[Sea Shanties]

Since the expansion was funded by Gracklstugh I think some more nudging towards making it Duergar-run could give it the character it needs to make it different. Currently it looks like it will be drow-run like the Devil's Table which seems like a missed opportunity to me.

Also, I was slammed for saying this before so I must be crazy for repeating it but I still think if a new district opens anyone should be able to switch citizenship and vote and run. We shouldn't punish players who took citizenship elsewhere when they had no other options. Switching citizenship is costly and the new area will have limited or no storage or resources so it's not like there's any advantage except being able to have immediate investment in the politics.

[O-H41]

I think we need to be patient about the changes to the city port district. It seems to be a work in progress and not a completely finished area for the long-term. Like the new derro city, there's a lot of room for expansion on the waterways as a means of quick travel, and Irongron did post around the time of the boat race that there may be some upcoming changes to boats. I agree that it could use greater accessibility to the Hub and a third seat in the middle of the Hub, but there's been no declaration from Claddath or Freth on it, despite their allowing it to exist. I also haven't checked yet if Greyport can bid on properties at the brokerage, but if they can't yet, I presume they will be able to eventually. So for now, we wait for the NPCs to tell us of further changes and take them as they come. It's a good start to a lot of wonderful underdark expansion lately. If the devs are reading - looking good! Thanks for the updates.

[Cerk Evermoore]

Seems like the Port District is lacking a Gondola similar to the one at the Outpost.

[time_limited]

Also, I was slammed for saying this so I must be crazy for repeating it but I still think if a new district opens anyone should be able to switch citizenship and vote and run.. We shouldn't punish players who are citizens elsewhere when they had no other options.

Unfortunetly this is what happened essentially.. The duergar cannot vote in it.. nor participate otherwise then as proxies because of the citizen switching limitation. Proxies is nice but as literally All of the duergar in Andunor are in one invested faction at present (bar 2 characters) and were linked into specified citizenship's before the district introduction we all got hit by the citizen switching timeout.

Mechanically we could all create characters just to run for the votes in the new district and simply nugde it in the first election.. But I don't think something like that would be OK with the rules as it clearly brakes the In-Character RP.

The only issue I have in terms of accessibility is that the actual "walking" way to it is so hidden and is far longer then the Sharps and Table distance from the Hub. I don't think a portal in it is a good idea.

If you take the time it takes to reach the district by boat and compare it with the time to reach the other districts it is actually quicker.

But here are the problems which are with the district in my opinion:
1. Shops
Their location being within the houses is annoying. You have to cross multiple transitions to verify what is available in the district - this should be a port-type district where you go in and have a street with shop stands from people hoping off to trade with the ship sailors.

2. The Gondolla location
Why there? In front of a house which is themed for an Inn yet doesn't serve its purpose. Why a sailor from a ship would ever want to go up away from his ship to get a drink? They do it close so if you get back drunk you can do it quicker. (the district house tavern helps to this a bit). The Gondolla exit point makes it awkward to land there instead of the main section.. why is it even sectioned like this? How would the people handling the ships pass the products from the ship to other districts?

3. It's a Port.. Where are the ships?
There are no ships in City Port. There should be connections outside of Andunor available, there should be ships loaded with slaves, or otherwise needed goods from prime and planar areas. There should be actual loading docks with working unfortunates. And no the gnoll, half-orc, nor the duergar don't count where are THE ships? I'm not saying PC ships.. but NPC ships just sitting in the waters and doing.. something even just look pretty

4. General thematic
Why are there slaves with a bunch of broken things and fences in the middle of the district? It's a port a port is were packages are transport, armies are marched, products are stolen and smuggled.. yet in the middle of the district we have a bunch of not worked slaves blocking sensible passage. Fences again around the sewer entrance, Beggars there are great though! Where is the Dock master house?

5 Bank Location
Why there. My god not only far away from any shop but also additional transitions as well. First to get into the building and then again up the stairs. That duergar embassy building is great inside but outside well it doesn't look blocky and practical enough to me more like a drow something.

6 Priest of Cyric?
Can it be tied down with district chosen religion? And just live in some other place then that hole which looks like a latrine

What is good:
The Beggars are great.
Little NPC merchants from various races trying to sell off their things for a living
The addition of rare race neutral NPCs in the district please can we have some beholder.. Etc, can we have actual walking NPCs?


So advice time:
1 Organize the district so that we have shops in their stands as walkway beside the water side. Shops still tied to the houses But not inside the houses.
2 Add visual ships with loading cranes, slaves operating them slaves of various races
3 Put an Inn nearby the ships
4 Put a Dock Master house as the first house you would have to pass when you are out of a docking ship. District government goes in there. ADD CITIZEN STORAGE
5 Put the bank in the main part of the district
6 arrange the buildings into walk alleys
7 Make the duergar embassy more "blocky"
8 remove those slaves from the middle, remove that cook as well or put her somewhere around the new shop locations
9 add locations to which you can travel with those NPC ships
10 Add a Slave market

[Sea Shanties]

I agree with much of that and would add I think the embassy ought to have a few amenities for duergar players. A duergar-only faction hall would be great but even just a meeting room that only they can access would be a very nice addition.

I would also add.. The Treadstone Locks and City Port seem to share a lot of thematic similarities. Both are ports with a shady vibe, the Locks has a portal and concentrated merchants and shops which makes it much more convenient to quickly hit and the City Port is a little more obtuse but they seem like really similar areas. Thinking long term, should more be done to make them unique? I could see the Locks being separated from Anundor entirely and being a mini-Sencliff for those who don't fit in or are outcasted from the city as one possible example, not that it should necessarily be how it would go.

[Might-N-Magic]

1. It's pretty annoying to live in a place forever and suddenly have a government move in out of nowhere, yet you can't vote or do anything...
2. Can we actually get some bloody boats in this port so that way an underdarker race can actually sail and do things?
3. Sencliff has it's own entire island. It doesn't need anything down here. Underdark for underdarkers. Yeesh.

[Sea Shanties]

Yeesh yourself for misreading what I said, which most definitely was not giving it to Sencliff but rather making a haven for those underdarkers avoiding Anundor. But that’s off topic anyway and don’t want to derail things.. will ask the purpose of The Locks vs The Port another time.

[Irongron]

Unfortunetly this is what happened essentially.. The duergar cannot vote in it.. nor participate otherwise then as proxies because of the citizen switching limitation. Proxies is nice but as literally All of the duergar in Andunor are in one invested faction at present (bar 2 characters) and were linked into specified citizenship's before the district introduction we all got hit by the citizen switching timeout.

This was unavoidable, the alternative would have been a mass 'gaming' of the election, where dozens of citizens of DT and Sharps would have switched so as to 'win' the first election on the part of their district. If one really wants to be involved in the future of the new district I would suggest switching now, and voting next time.

If you take the time it takes to reach the district by boat and compare it with the time to reach the other districts it is actually quicker.

I'm glad you made this point, because I was shocked to read that. Its something like 12 seconds between Hub and Gondola, and less on the other side to reach the centre of the district. If that's too long for some players then playing on the surface, where travel between settlements is far longer, must be intolerable.

1. Shops
Their location being within the houses is annoying. You have to cross multiple transitions to verify what is available in the district - this should be a port-type district where you go in and have a street with shop stands from people hoping off to trade with the ship sailors.

So advice time:
1 Organize the district so that we have shops in their stands as walkway beside the water side. Shops still tied to the houses But not inside the houses.

Putting the shops on the outside is possibly a good idea. The Middledark Port (Greyport) has an extraordinarily long loading time.

The design for these shops follows that of the Trade Guild and 'shop' buildings in Cordor. I read on another post here that they were all intended as bars, and that I should add the bar system to one - this is not the case. They all have a) a public lobby b) a shop and c) a counter.

These are versatile buildings that I like for a number of reasons.

- They can be repurposed as guildhouses, workshops, barracks, shops and taverns.
- The counter allows for easy exchange of services. Handing over an item to be repaired, for it to be taken into the back room and worked on, buying drinks, custom enchantments, all becomes a lot easier.
- They can be decorated extensively by the PC in whatever theme they wish (something not true for exterior shops)
- Most importantly they are a far more 'inclusive' approach to private quarters. Rather than RP happening behind closed doors, anyone can go in. Sure they have private areas, but the focus in on the public facing side. I consider 'closed door RP' one of the great banes of the server, and the anathema of an engaging roleplay environment

So coming back your suggestion - shops on the outside. If I did that then I would probably need to do it in Cordor also. The shops however, give a solid reason for PCs to enter these buildings, and thus engage with whatever RP the owner is setting up. Perhaps the bar is a recruiting station? Or they really want to RP their work as an artisan? We put the shops on the outside then I might as well make the entire thing private. Still, as I said it might be good idea in any case, I'll think about it some more and wait for more input on the topic.

2. The Gondolla location
Why there? In front of a house which is themed for an Inn yet doesn't serve its purpose. Why a sailor from a ship would ever want to go up away from his ship to get a drink? They do it close so if you get back drunk you can do it quicker. (the district house tavern helps to this a bit). The Gondolla exit point makes it awkward to land there instead of the main section.. why is it even sectioned like this? How would the people handling the ships pass the products from the ship to other districts?

Two separate answers needed. First is that the Canal House has more tavern theming, but is really just another 'Trade Guild Shop' as I asnwered above.

With the Gondola location I think I need to explain the Geography of Andunor a little, because due to the lack of ceilings on the UD tileset it can be hard to fathom..

Greyport is the Middledark port of Andunor. It is 'undernath' the city. Waters flow into Andunor via Treadstone Locks, which connect to the surface, helps fill a river, which empties into the Great Scar. This river also fills the canals of Andunor, and the canals empty through a number of waterfalls, beneath the city, into the Subterranean Seas of the Underdark.

I designed Andunor with a lot of space along the Canals, with many viewable part of the city outside of the 'play' area to imply a larger city beyond. This enables me to make new districts at any time in the future, based upon these other banks of the canal. I'd happily have 4 or 5 districts, if we had enough players down there.

The Gondola doesn't serve the Middledark Port for the same reason they don't serve the Outpost, and that the Dreadnaught can't access the Subterranean Sea - the bodies of water are not connected for ship travel. The Gondola drops the character at the top of the falls, where they can admire their general prettiness, or descend via a transition to the Middledark.

3. It's a Port.. Where are the ships?
There are no ships in City Port. There should be connections outside of Andunor available, there should be ships loaded with slaves, or otherwise needed goods from prime and planar areas. There should be actual loading docks with working unfortunates. And no the gnoll, half-orc, nor the duergar don't count where are THE ships? I'm not saying PC ships.. but NPC ships just sitting in the waters and doing.. something even just look pretty

The underdark doesn't have any 'walkable' ships, which thus far has ruled out any ship system similar to the surface. Still, there are 7 UD boats there, plus a VERY LARGE UD ship I painstakingly made entirely from placeables. You can see it from one shore, and in the bottom left of the below image (though it is obscured in the picture)

4. General thematic
Why are there slaves with a bunch of broken things and fences in the middle of the district? It's a port a port is were packages are transport, armies are marched, products are stolen and smuggled.. yet in the middle of the district we have a bunch of not worked slaves blocking sensible passage. Fences again around the sewer entrance, Beggars there are great though! Where is the Dock master house?

The middle of the district can likely be redone, now that the area has evolved into a district.

5 Bank Location
Why there. My god not only far away from any shop but also additional transitions as well. First to get into the building and then again up the stairs. That duergar embassy building is great inside but outside well it doesn't look blocky and practical enough to me more like a drow something.

I am limited by the tileset, and this building was preferable due to its imposing nature. Means to access the bank is easily done in a number of other locations in the city, but could maybe be added to Port Authority also.

6 Priest of Cyric?
Can it be tied down with district chosen religion? And just live in some other place then that hole which looks like a latrine

These guys are outcasts from the surface, akin to a faction of vagrants. They don't represent anything 'official' in the city.

So advice time:
9 add locations to which you can travel with those NPC ships

I believe the Middledark Port currently servers routes to Zhurkwood Grove, The Cloaker Spiral, the Burning Shores, the Outpost and the Forest of Spires. Furthermore there is an incoming route from Skaljard Underdark, and a destination point for the Outpost Ship.

I definitely will be adding more in time, but such updates do not happen quickly.

Generally speaking, there is a lot more to do with Greyport, and what that will be will take shape slowly over time, as the RP their develops. I'm really excited to see this happen.

Players will, however, be disappointed if they expect it to rapidly evolve - On Arelith devlopment like this can take a very long time - though it does happen. I have a many other areas of the server to develop, and the Underdark has already seen a lot of attention lately.

I really do have a passion for Arelith devlopment, but one of the most disheartening aspects is something I was told very on very early on in NWN development 'The more you do the more they'll expect',

It has proved so very true.

We've worked so hard these last 5 years to realise a steady stream of new content, amounting to what must be many thousands of volunteer man hours. At first this was dizzying to see so much new content regularly being droppped, but now, more than ever before, one update is barely out of the door before I read a dozen posts on what MUST come next. Unfortunately some of these (NOT the above) take a demanding, and often entitled (if not downright rude) tone to our staff.

I recall our finishing up making Andunor, the largest project I had ever done. Action Replay, Dunshine and myself had literally been working round the clock for many weeks. That kind of workrate takes a serious toll. A few months later I'd just finished up a much smaller project, this time for the surface, and logged into the forums to read a long post about what I should now do for the Underdark because, I quote, 'it's our turn next'.

I am happy to see enthusisam for new content, I share it myself, but I would ask some in the playerbase to be a little more patient, and understanding of the time this kind of work takes.

Finally from another post in this thread

Underdark for underdarkers

No.

The Upperdark is routinely visited, and indeed home to many 'surface' races and adventurers (whole reason we even have it in the setting). This whole 'UD as a private server just for us drow etc' was extremely damaging in the past, and I made Andunor in part to put an end to it. Back then people would get harrassed even for logging into the UD (it was on its own server).

None of this is fair of course. Surfacers can visit Andunor but monsters can't visit Cordor?

Welcome to the Forgotten Realms, the makers of this world did not d so with aim of creating an egalitarian utopia, and neither do I intend to build one. If one wants to play in such a world I suspect there are many great homebrew servers on NWN where this is permitted.

The sentiment of course (Underdark for Underdarkers) is absolutely fine to take IN-CHARACTER, and to roleplay out to the enjoyment of all involved, but absolutely not okay to post as an OOC dog whistle comment on the forums. This only serves to make players feel unwelcome to enjoy all parts of the module (and to absolutely clear that is NOT something for other players to decide) and to create OOC division among players based around what race they play IC (which is, quite frankly, absurd).

Oh, and one other thing.

Like the new derro city,

There is actually more to this than most players have discovered, a large interior within the town.

[naturaly]

In regards to the shops outside, this would be a huge improvement in Cordor too as you suggest. I don’t go to the trade union shops in Cordor anymore because I must transition in and out of every single one every time.

This wasn’t as big of a deal before Enhanced, but now every area load seems to increase the memory usage (leak).

[NauVaseline]

So coming back your suggestion - shops on the outside. If I did that then I would probably need to do it in Cordor also. The shops however, give a solid reason for PCs to enter these buildings, and thus engage with whatever RP the owner is setting up. Perhaps the bar is a recruiting station? Or they really want to RP their work as an artisan? We put the shops on the outside then I might as well make the entire thing private. Still, as I said it might be good idea in any case, I'll think about it some more and wait for more input on the topic.

If you are modeling it after Cordor, then you could simply add a quartet of new shops outside. After all, that is the more accurate reflection of Cordor: many shops concentrated together in several indoor locations and a few scattered outside.

That placeable ship is really cool.

[Subutai]

Just in general, and this probably deserves a topic of its own, I really wish that shops in general would be decoupled from homes, and always placed outside. Single shops after transitions are tedious to get to, and most of the shops behind transitions in Cordor do much, much worse than their companions outside, often by a large margin.

The same goes for shops in weird places. The two shops by the Cordor cemetery get very, very little traffic compared to other shops in Cordor because they're so far off the beaten path.

[Durvayas]

The design for these shops follows that of the Trade Guild and 'shop' buildings in Cordor. I read on another post here that they were all intended as bars, and that I should add the bar system to one - this is not the case. They all have a) a public lobby b) a shop and c) a counter.

You misread my post. I was referring to the quarter in the west wheel immediately next to the hub (leaving the hub, its that door right next to the message board) which players have been trying to turn into a functioning bar or tavern for a number of RL years. Its design has always lent itself to being a bar, but its never had the functionality to compare to the nomad or clover unfortunately.

That was the location I was suggesting that you should have put the bar system into(and recognising the player effort towards making it a bar would have been a nice touch as well). It even has a sizable storage room that would work well to store the taps for a player run bar, and its location right next to the hub has always been ideal for it.

[Sea Shanties]

This was unavoidable, the alternative would have been a mass 'gaming' of the election, where dozens of citizens of DT and Sharps would have switched so as to 'win' the first election on the part of their district. If one really wants to be involved in the future of the new district I would suggest switching now, and voting nex

I don't think the alternative, limiting the election to characters who are either brand new (and possibly sock puppets) or are so disinterested in politics they never voted before is ideal either.

I think in this and future cases when a new district opens the people who own property there should be allowed to immediately switch citizenship, run for election and vote. Owning property before it is a real district at least indicates some investment and involvement in the area prior and they are the ones who should have first crack at running the place.

[Ork]

I think in this and future cases when a new district opens the people who own property there should be allowed to immediately switch citizenship, run for election and vote. Owning property before it is a real district at least indicates some investment and involvement in the area prior and they are the ones who should have first crack at running the place.

I think while that's all well and good, imagine the amount of labor involved for an occasional once-in-a-blue-moon added settlement. I think this issue ..just gotta let it ride.

[Irongron]

I think in this and future cases when a new district opens the people who own property there should be allowed to immediately switch citizenship, run for election and vote. Owning property before it is a real district at least indicates some investment and involvement in the area prior and they are the ones who should have first crack at running the place.

I think while that's all well and good, imagine the amount of labor involved for an occasional once-in-a-blue-moon added settlement. I think this issue ..just gotta let it ride.

It would be fair bit of DB work to allow those already with houses, depending on how many people lived there, but if possible I would actually have allowed it as it was clearly hugely frustrating to those players. However I was not replying to that suggestion. To be clear, this was the suggestion.

so, I was slammed for saying this before so I must be crazy for repeating it but I still think if a new district opens anyone should be able to switch citizenship and vote and run. We shouldn't punish players who took citizenship elsewhere when they had no other options. Switching citizenship is costly and the new area will have limited or no storage or resources so it's not like there's any advantage except being able to have immediate investment in the politics.

This does not mention the quarter owners, and I presumed the request being made was to allow 'anyone' to switch. I maintain this is not a good idea, as I would expect one of the most powerful factions in another district to drop their citizenship, vote, and declare Greyport the vassel of their own. Unfortunately whenever we have elections on Arelith there are always some attempted shennaningans, and while we generally catch those attempts, this would have been beyond our control.

With that in mind I also recently took the decision to temporarily disable the vassalship function in the Andunor Districts. I will likely enable it again when I'm convinced those voting in a district are also involved in the RP.

Still, this was only the first election in Greyport, and many others will come around, so there will be further opportunities. In future I will consider making property owners citizens from the start, as that is a good idea.

I should also add that after so many years of two districts I'm no longer so averse to having yet more, if I see high enough player numbers in Andunor, and consistent RP in that direction. They certainly wouldn't be anything on the scale of Sharps/DT, which I still consider the 'major' districts of Andunor, but it is a possibility.

As I said though, it does come down to player numbers. I don't want to see too much vacant property down there, and currently I think it very well served for such options. I love the UD setting, perhaps beyond all others on Arelith - A dream situation for me would be to have 200 players online in Andunor, and thus the justification to have 7 or 8 districts. Overall in the last 2 months player numbers overall have risen slightly, to something like 2500, but Andunor/UD is rarely above 30-40 players at any one time, and from my observations has actually been dropping overall.

Is it enough for a 4th small district? Perhaps, but first I want to see how the addition of one more affects the city, before I commit to more.

[CosmicOrderV]

Might be a little off topic, but various surface 'settlements' all have their own speedy services. There is literally only two goblin runners, and only one of those are on the same server as most of the underdark. It would be FANTASTIC to see at least two more added. One to the ogre fist trading post, and one to the new district.

[Might-N-Magic]

Finally from another post in this thread

Underdark for underdarkers

No.

The Upperdark is routinely visited, and indeed home to many 'surface' races and adventurers (whole reason we even have it in the setting). This whole 'UD as a private server just for us drow etc' was extremely damaging in the past, and I made Andunor in part to put an end to it. Back then people would get harrassed even for logging into the UD (it was on its own server).

None of this is fair of course. Surfacers can visit Andunor but monsters can't visit Cordor?

Welcome to the Forgotten Realms, the makers of this world did not d so with aim of creating an egalitarian utopia, and neither do I intend to build one. If one wants to play in such a world I suspect there are many great homebrew servers on NWN where this is permitted.

The sentiment of course (Underdark for Underdarkers) is absolutely fine to take IN-CHARACTER, and to roleplay out to the enjoyment of all involved, but absolutely not okay to post as an OOC dog whistle comment on the forums. This only serves to make players feel unwelcome to enjoy all parts of the module (and to absolutely clear that is NOT something for other players to decide) and to create OOC division among players based around what race they play IC (which is, quite frankly, absurd).

Disagree. It's also terribly non-canon nonsense. No one on the surface in Toril ever thinks, "Gosh, what I need is a daytrip to the underdark! It will be FUN."

When I returned to this server from the long hiatus, the Underdark I was greeted with wasn't an improvement, it is a farce. Monstrous "lesser" races, lumped in with drow, which for some reason the svirfneblin live with (wth) all of which for some reason tolerate "outcasts" (which are outcast humans who somehow believe the Underdark (!) is more acceptable than forming a bandit group or settlement) that surfacers visit for funsies. This has given every Underdark race a bad case of "humans in funny suits" syndrome.

I'm not the only one who thinks this Underdark setting is so far from canon it might as well be The Smurfs. This isn't the Forgotten Realms. The Underdark is NOT scary anymore and hasn't been since maybe the Pit Town days,

So much of what you say is two-faced and defeats itself within the same sentence. Egalitarian utopia? Well that's obviously one-sided since only one of the two sides has that. Homebrew? Wanting an actual realistic, canonish Underdark is homebrew now? In what splatbook or accessory is the Underdark "nice" and "welcoming" to non-Underdarkers? In what world would your average human saunter down there and erect a house and expect it to stand a week without ending up in chains?

This only serves to make players feel unwelcome to enjoy all parts of the module

Do you have the self-awareness to realize this is exactly what Underdarkers deal with every time we login when we dare step foot anywhere outside?

Reading your very one-sided reply to the simple idea that "you know, we only have X amount of limited resources down here, MAYBE they should be for the characters who are actually stuck here while other characters who have vastly MORE resources available to them up there make use of those" compelled me to refute it just by pointing out it defeats itself with hardly any effort.

[Scurvy Cur]

The fury of assblasted Udos players is the firmest and most unequivocal endorsement of Andunor that one can receive.

[Vrass]

The Underdark is not welcoming and it is plenty scary. Oh when you first go down there it may seem welcoming... but that's just to lure you in. Once you start going down there frequently one of two things will happen, you will be noticed and asked to join the UD faction or you will be noticed and enslaved. Refusing to join them when asked and or displaying any good traits will obviously get you enslaved or worse by default. My character went down there and had that problem... He got out of it by pretending to accept their offer and then betraying them as soon as he got back to the surface. A very risky move of course but there was no other option.

[Kuma]

[snip]

maybe the underdark of this server is no longer for you (nor has it been for the past four years)

but with ee and fresh blood and effort maybe another server can scratch that itch

until then i don't think this line of discussion will go how you want it to go.

edit: also the ud has never been scary, just hard mode and/or pvp dickery, which is a poor and dumb substitute for actual "fear"

" In what splatbook or accessory is the Underdark "nice" and "welcoming" to non-Underdarkers? In what world would your average human saunter down there and erect a house and expect it to stand a week without ending up in chains?"

sklullport, thank u next

[Nekonecro]

In what splatbook or accessory is the Underdark "nice" and "welcoming" to non-Underdarkers? In what world would your average human saunter down there and erect a house and expect it to stand a week without ending up in chains?

[Let Love In]

Wasn't Skullport actually a human city, built by mages and run by pirates, just one that happened to be in the Underdark and did lots of trade with the underdark races? Surely this is no more the model we want for Andunor than Menzo.

Andunor is homebrew. It's not Menzo, but its not Skullport either. Its Andunor.

[Lunargent]

Wasn't Skullport actually a human city, built by mages and run by pirates, just one that happened to be in the Underdark and did lots of trade with the underdark races? Surely this is no more the model we want for Andunor than Menzo.

Andunor is homebrew. It's not Menzo, but its not Skullport either. Its Andunor.

The DMs themselves have compared Andunor to Skullport. Many times.