Feedback on Goblins

[DangerDolphin]

I just tried a goblin alt last night and the RP was a lot of fun - it's not a main character and I don't have a big stake in gobbo mechanics, but I felt compelled to make a post for them because they are in a really bad place right now.

First of all, their subrace stats are just awful. Maybe this is thematically appropriate to goblins, but we can't give them -1 ECL as they'll be used for farming awards, so they could really use some other bonuses.

The Wisdom/Discipline Aura from multiple goblins is nice and a really cool idea, but it seems to have a very short range and I lost it quite often.

Appearance-wise, all the models seem to be male and barely vary at all - whereas Drow get the full elf model, and Derro get the dwarf model so they can customize their characters. Before I had my appearance applied in the starting area, I made a discolored halfling and it looked fine - just needed some tattered armor or rags and maybe a resize. This would also allow some goblins to disguise themselves on the surface - another thing Drow can do.

Finally, there's their racial weapon, which is a light flail, which nobody uses because flails are terrible. Arelith should just make all light flails 19-20/x2 to bring them up on par with swords and make it more of an RP choice which weapon characters use.

That's all! I hope this starts a productive conversation and results in some tweaks for the little gobbos so we can see more of them around.

[Irongron]

When we get the chance we can look at the pack bonus range, and improving the light flail stats is definitely a good idea.

In regards to models we can definitely introduce more options with HaKs, but any kind of dynamic model is unlikely.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

I honestly don't see how goblins are any worse than halflings. (Currently playing one).

Models and flails i see concerns, but a goblin is essentially a halfling with free wisdom in a group of goblins and free poison use. I feel reviewing them would result in a nerf (which neither of us would want) unless all small races were buffed up. Its actaully one of the more flexible non human UD races because you can choose your gifts

*edit*

Irongron, I think addressed the real points of concern perfectly though. (A lot of players have complained about models)

[The Kriv]

Regarding the model... I always felt the goblins were androgenous. Neither male or female.. and telling the difference between a male goblin and a female goblin ought to be difficult by anyone BUT fellow goblins.

-the fact they all look the same is well... very in tune with the nature of Goblins. they SHOULD all look the same with very little individualism.

I know this doesn't sit well with some PEOPLE who want their characters to be unique and special and look that way.. but in keeping with the genre, the goblin models having few choices adds very much to the server, and shouldn't be thought of as a negative.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Regarding the model... I always felt the goblins were androgenous. Neither male or female.. and telling the difference between a male goblin and a female goblin ought to be difficult by anyone BUT fellow goblins.

-the fact they all look the same is well... very in tune with the nature of Goblins. they SHOULD all look the same with very little individualism.

I know this doesn't sit well with some PEOPLE who want their characters to be unique and special and look that way.. but in keeping with the genre, the goblin models having few choices adds very much to the server, and shouldn't be thought of as a negative.

I hear you, but the fact players are resorting to over rides means it is not just a customization issue. I am fine with their look too. Some might find it a bit goofy though. Like, just look at their faces!

[Sea Shanties]

There's a commonly used goblin override pack that I think makes them look downright adorable. Or ad-horrible.

https://neverwintervault.org/project/nw ... s-override

If you install it at least the goblins on your screen (including your character) will look better, though of course it does nothing to improve them on other people's end if they don't install the override too.

What would it take to get these to be the PC default? Haks? Do all customized race skins come from the base game only? (I feel like one of the ogre skins doesn't, maybe?)

Oh and also, if flails are being looked at.. They are thematically cool but practically it's a strength-based, mandatory 2-handed weapon for a small dex based/strength penalty race. They also won't take a poison application being blunt weapons which negates one of the race's benefits. I assume they're meant for a 2-hander barbarian, maybe a few other strength-based classes but what goblins could really use is a special dagger.

[Arise_Gargantua]

Regarding the model... I always felt the goblins were androgenous. Neither male or female.. and telling the difference between a male goblin and a female goblin ought to be difficult by anyone BUT fellow goblins.

-the fact they all look the same is well... very in tune with the nature of Goblins. they SHOULD all look the same with very little individualism.

I know this doesn't sit well with some PEOPLE who want their characters to be unique and special and look that way.. but in keeping with the genre, the goblin models having few choices adds very much to the server, and shouldn't be thought of as a negative.

I hear you, but the fact players are resorting to over rides means it is not just a customization issue. I am fine with their look too. Some might find it a bit goofy though. Like, just look at their faces!

Hard disagree. The 'All goblins look the same' trope is great when goblins are the cannon fodder that your Lawful Good PC is mopping up, but it's less good when you're playing the goblin yourself. Same goes for kobolds. Individual tribes would likely end up wearing the same sort of outfits anyway - much the same way that surface factions do. Giving them that option would add more to the server than forcing every critter to use the same short supply of very similar models (which don't even clue the viewer in to what kind of armour they're wearing)

As for them being 'androgynous', that seems again like an observation made from the games where we fight goblins rather than play them.

If I were doing the HAK route, adding 'goblin' heads (through a start menu?) that could be custom-added to halfling bodies would probably be easier than coding a whole new dynamic race. I think it's already been done as an override for kobolds in the old version.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Regarding the model... I always felt the goblins were androgenous. Neither male or female.. and telling the difference between a male goblin and a female goblin ought to be difficult by anyone BUT fellow goblins.

-the fact they all look the same is well... very in tune with the nature of Goblins. they SHOULD all look the same with very little individualism.

I know this doesn't sit well with some PEOPLE who want their characters to be unique and special and look that way.. but in keeping with the genre, the goblin models having few choices adds very much to the server, and shouldn't be thought of as a negative.

I hear you, but the fact players are resorting to over rides means it is not just a customization issue. I am fine with their look too. Some might find it a bit goofy though. Like, just look at their faces!

Hard disagree. The 'All goblins look the same' trope is great when goblins are the cannon fodder that your Lawful Good PC is mopping up, but it's less good when you're playing the goblin yourself. Same goes for kobolds. Individual tribes would likely end up wearing the same sort of outfits anyway - much the same way that surface factions do. Giving them that option would add more to the server than forcing every critter to use the same short supply of very similar models (which don't even clue the viewer in to what kind of armour they're wearing)

As for them being 'androgynous', that seems again like an observation made from the games where we fight goblins rather than play them.

If I were doing the HAK route, adding 'goblin' heads (through a start menu?) that could be custom-added to halfling bodies would probably be easier than coding a whole new dynamic race. I think it's already been done as an override for kobolds in the old version.

As much as i think customization can't hurt, I much rather be a generic goblin than a halfling body with a goblin head. I dont like sharing bodies with my food.

[TimeAdept]

Arelith should just make all light flails 19-20/x2 to bring them up on par with swords and make it more of an RP choice which weapon characters use.

This would actually make the light flail better than the longsword in every way, because bludgeoning damage is better than slashing.

[The Kriv]

Hard disagree. The 'All goblins look the same' trope is great when goblins are the cannon fodder that your Lawful Good PC is mopping up, but it's less good when you're playing the goblin yourself. Same goes for kobolds. Individual tribes would likely end up wearing the same sort of outfits anyway - much the same way that surface factions do. Giving them that option would add more to the server than forcing every critter to use the same short supply of very similar models (which don't even clue the viewer in to what kind of armour they're wearing)

I think this sort of proves my above point. That it's really only the goblins themselves (and kobolds as stated above) that would really tell the differing nuances of their individualism.

I doubt any adventure would look at a goblin and go, "Whoa, that goblin has on adamantine full plate"
-it would be more like, "oh, there goes another goblin with frying pans stuck to its shoulders."


and for full disclosure: I played a goblin for a good bit of time, if any of yall remember, "Bree-Yark" my goblin that used to run around giving people gibberling-dung, and sniffing the feet of the pesky humans who frequented the Hub, saying that he wanted their toes to make "Toe Soup"

just mentioning this so I don't get labeled one of those people who comment on character races that they've never played.

[Cerk Evermoore]

On the other hand watch lord of the rings where the excellent cinimatic crew portrayed orcs who for the most part had their own traits and could be recognized from one another. Pieces of armor being the most noticable, and you would notice a goblin in adamantite because it is so rare.

A little customization goes a loooooong way. A goblin wearing a helmet or using a wagon wheel as a shield or even maybe some tattoo war paint. Saying "Every goblin should look the same." Is kinda rough on the people who are telling a story. If they can have a unique personality, shouldn't they be able to be individuals?

That is why i use Lotr as an example, i would argue the rag tag goblins and orcs from the movie looked more compelling then the giant CGI army of Urk-hai(sp?) Yet, even the most generic armies they had. You could still tell them apart.

[Subutai]

On the topic of Lord of the Rings, I think Shadow of Mordor and Shadow of War are great examples for this. While the standard copy/paste orcs looked basically the same for their types, the individual nemeses all had very distinct appearances. So much so that if you paid attention, you could tell what nemesis you were fighting just based on how they looked.

Sure, in the fury of combat an adventurer might not notice the face of every goblin they killed, but if a goblin actually stopped to interact with them, I have very little doubt that one goblin would look so similar to the other goblins that they'd be indistinguishable. In fact, given goblin's frequent depiction as having predilections towards war paint, tattoos, piercings, scarification, etc., I'd imagine in some ways, differentiating two goblins would be even easier than differentiating two gnomes.