Norogh Norr, punished for playing.

[TheSandiestcomet]

So I recently made a UD character to try out Totem Druid, and I was having a blast. I took the two Derro writs because they lead into each other and I thought it'd be a good adventure. About halfway in I learn that the first one can't be completed because the Savant Lore does not spawn under any circumstances. Citation needed on that, but a few people told me it's been around since the Derro update. [And really, an entire writ made completely inaccessible for ~2 months? What's up with that? It's probably something you're guys are aware of already, but still. I think it should be removed from the list for now, at least, if the issue can't be fixed?] I continue on down the Forest of Spores and still, despite the minor setback, I'm having fun with the class and the area design and enemies are pretty cool for something so low-level.

Then, I get to the Derro village. And oh man it is amazing, gameplay-wise. The mix of a semistable town and a hive of murderers and robbers seemed really quite interesting to me. After clearing out the whole map, I head into the center, where I find that the Temple's door cannot be unlocked.

O...Kay. Sure, that's fine. I'm certainly not against puzzles. I'm quite a fan of them, even. So I look at the text descriptions I'm given, and I decide that 'Oh, they probably want money'.

I put three-thousand in. Nothing.
I put less in. Nothing.

I get a little confused, and run around the area for a while, checking every single container for some kind of special item.
Zilch.

I go back, and look at the gems on the floor. I try arranging the few gems I have in my inventory into the pattern they match.
Nothing. No feedback from the puzzle whatsoever.
I tried filling every slot in the donation box. Still. Nothing.

I take to discord, and I'm flooded with 'foig', which - Yes, that's fine. I understand why. So I do that. I go back to Andunor and look for people who can help.
Nobody knows. Nobody's done the Derro writs, because of this puzzle.
I ask a few friends oocly if it's bugged, and they say they don't know - They gave up at the puzzle.


Now, maybe if this was an Epic Level dungeon, or was hiding a rune chest or something (Which, it very well might be, I can't get inside.), I'd understand the reason for the puzzle to be there.
As it stands?

It's an annoying blockade in otherwise what I considered to be a seamless, extremely fun dungeon run with a class that I've really taken a liking to. The fact that I am now going to have to abandon the writ and wait another OOC day to take another is annoying, sure. But it got me thinking. What if this was someone's first writ? Their introduction to the server. They take a look at the writs, and go through the same thought process that I did: They're close together, by the description's sounds - And they both deal with the same kinds of foes in the same kinds of level ranges.

Surely, then, that'd mean they're perfect for a new player to try out?
But with this puzzle, that makes little sense even to people who've been playing a lot longer than this theoretical new player, it creates a blockade. And many people might decide they don't want to play anymore - Because one of the quests is bugged, and the other has a nonsensical blockade at the end of it.


This might seem like I'm complaining that the puzzle itself is difficult - And, while, yes, I'll admit I've been struggling with it, and can't figure it out, yes. But the problem for me is - Why does the blockade need to be there? This is a first-few-levels dungeon. It would be brilliant, even without this odd mechanic.


TL:DR
Norogh Norr's Temple has a funky puzzle outside it that I can't solve and it made me a little miffed, and it got me thinking that it might turn away new players if they can't solve it. Also the other Derro writ is broken, and doesn't spawn it's boss.


Quick Edit:
The Granite Caves have holes that take you to a pit you physically cannot leave without DM assistance.
What.

[Ork]

Not everything in the module needs to be accessed. I appreciate areas like the derro temple because they are challenging. I'm not looking for a hand-held experience where there are no barriers to gameplay. At worst, it is an inconvenience to players who can't figure it out and nothing more.

[Shadowy Reality]

I do not understand why the response to these is always FOIG.

There is plenty of FOIG information in Discord, it is just that somehow after a while it is somehow acceptable to say it in a public chat. The OP clearly went to the effort of trying to solve the issue IG and at this point the puzzle is just detracting from the experience. I bet many of these puzzle's answers get passed around through private chats a lot, it is just that the OP has no access to them.

Not everything in the module needs to be accessed. I appreciate areas like the derro temple because they are challenging. I'm not looking for a hand-held experience where there are no barriers to gameplay. At worst, it is an inconvenience to players who can't figure it out and nothing more.

If someone has tried to go about it ICly and just could not find anyone where is the harm in just privately telling them the answer? It hurts no one else if it is done privately.

[Zeskay]

You are not alone, this has been discussed before: viewtopic.php?f=37&t=24386. I agree that if it's locked behind a particular skill, you should get some sort of hint, so you don't frustrate yourself trying to find a solution your character mechanically can't.

[Aniel]

Not everything in the module needs to be accessed. I appreciate areas like the derro temple because they are challenging. I'm not looking for a hand-held experience where there are no barriers to gameplay. At worst, it is an inconvenience to players who can't figure it out and nothing more.

I think this is a very, very harmful approach to have given this particular case. I don't believe a dungeon as long as the derro one should ever underneath any circumstance be nearly as hard to complete as it is. I think a puzzle that's hard enough to the point to where the universal community feedback is just abandon the writ there's a problem. Especially because that's what it is - a writ. It isn't a secret puzzle for a special prize. It isn't a cool vampire or ooze stream. It's for a level 1-10 writ.

Imagine being someone that has never played NWN or Arelith before. You roll up a new character to play and you choose the Underdark. You find out that you're supposed to go to the writ agency office to get 'quests'. These quests give you recommended areas to go through and you're rewarded with a larger payoff. Naturally you take the ones suggested, those being the derro ones as they're some of the few writs you can take at level 3.

You continue through a very long dungeon. If you managed to avoid the pit that traps you until another player comes along or you get DM assistance then after a very long run you end up at a locked door with very vague hints. You can spend hours at the door and get no solution when the reward you're offered for completing it in the first place is some pitiful level 1-10 writ XP and GP. It's a very frustrating experience and is an outright lie of what to expect from the server at large. It's an outlier that isn't enjoyable and only contributes to ruining new player's experiences I feel. Or being an inconvenience to more experienced players whose take away is to never touch the dungeon with a 10 ft. pole ever again.

With that being said I don't think the puzzle should be outright removed either. I think skill checks or other related checks that make it impossible for a character to reasonably solo play a part in it then they should be removed. More hints should be added. Opening the door should be considerably more achievable than it currently is. I find it very unfortunate that the dungeon and this writ orientated for new characters - and thus new players - exists in the current state that it does.

[Ork]

It's disingenuous to the developers who have clearly designed an area meant to be challenging. There is a place in the underdark that has had a puzzle for the longest time that I could not get. My character would go to this location and try everything: pull a lever, inspect a dirt pile, scan for traps, etc. It consumed me (and my character), and no one would give me the answer OOC. Finally, my character was so incensed he asked around Andunor for clues or hints, and the discovery of what truly was missing made the area lose its charm. I learned what I needed to have to unlock the secret, and after that the area no longer interested me. The journey to that discovery was enjoyable, and meant my character had to interact with others he typically wouldn't have.

Be respectful to the developers and your fellow players in not giving this stuff out for free. Learn it in game, or discover it yourself. I'm a big proponent of mechanics being open and free, but puzzles, riddles and discoveries shouldn't be.

To Aniel, I don't agree that it's harmful in the slightest. There shouldn't be any expectations that writs are easy or barrier-free.

[Nitro]

There are certain puzzles on Arelith that are just plain stupid. Norogh Norr, the Talona temple, sibayad crypts. They are bad because they don't give you enough contextual information to legitimately figure the puzzle out because the answer they "hint" to could be such a vast array of things. Most of the puzzles on the server are solved by brute force random luck and then have the answer shared to other exasperated adventurers who find it equally impossible to figure it out.

Telling the devs this isn't disrespectful, it's honest feedback. Something can be challenging without relying on puzzles that lack contextual clues that make sense towards their completion.

[Ork]

Telling the devs this isn't disrespectful, it's honest feedback. Something can be challenging without relying on puzzles that lack contextual clues that make sense towards their completion.

The comment was in reply to Shadowy Reality's intent to spread the answers to these puzzles OOC. I don't have anything against honest feedback.

[Cerk Evermoore]

If you know everything and solve everything the world losses the magic. I am convined several secret bases for evil factions exist. We just cant find a lot of them!

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

The trap pits are escapable. Lord savant not spawnimg because of your level is not. I didnt even attempt the second writ. I tried the first one like 4 times though

[Kuma]

they should just not be writ areas, or the writ requirements be lowered.

[Nikko]

If failing the puzzle teleported you back to the hub I would continue to try more things to solve it. Either dropping 3k for a lens or walking all the way back out is simply a money and time sink that is attractive to few players.

I think any skill check failures giving a message would make this 1000% better.

[Subutai]

You are not alone, this has been discussed before: viewtopic.php?f=37&t=24386. I agree that if it's locked behind a particular skill, you should get some sort of hint, so you don't frustrate yourself trying to find a solution your character mechanically can't.

For those who don't want to read (I feel you, I don't read half of anything), I brought up this same topic not long ago (others had done so before me, I think). It's more or less confirmed that it requires at least one skill check to complete.

Additionally in the thread...

If it does involve skill checks, it good solution might be to add a message "You feel that as much as you might search for a solution, you'll never spot how to solve it." Give the players some clue that they won't be able to solve it, but some hint as to what would be required.

This is a pretty great suggestion! Thank you. I think I can make something like this work.

Anatida was very gracious in accepting criticism from a post of mine that might have been too harsh, and she even complimented my suggestion! For his/her sake, lets not keep kicking at this issue while there seems to be something in the works for this. No reason to keep criticizing, I think, when the issues are known to the dev, and seem to be being worked on.

Thanks again for your response to my original post, Anatida!

[TheSandiestcomet]

With regards to the trap pit -

If you do not have enough search / spot / whatever it is to make the trap?

You literally cannot leave. That character is stuck there until they starved to death OOCly. Luckily Jelly was around to spawn a monster on me so I could at least die faster.

I was, until now, unaware that the puzzle itself, to enter the temple, even NEEDED a specific check to pass! It doesn't insinuate that at all. It makes it seem like it's a puzzle of OOC wits.

A first-level writ should not be walled behind a skillcheck, IMO.

[Irongron]

I wrote a reply to this earlier, that must have either not been posted due to phone issues, or ended up on the wrong thread!

Sorry to hear about the OP issues. We'll try to get the missing boss in quickly and add some clues to how to enter the central temple.

As for the writs we'll look at making their reward more appropriate to the challenge.

[TheSandiestcomet]

Thanks for the swift reply! I look forward to doing the writs in the future when they're a bit more stable.