Arcane Archers and Zen Archery - Should they get free ammo?

[Subutai]

Ranger archers have a really, really huge benefit over arcane archers or people who take zen archery: They get free ammo once every rest, while Arcane Archers and Zen Archers don't. This is really a gigantic inconvenience for archery classes. They can easily go through more stacks of arrows in a couples hours than they can craft (maybe unless they can succeed in all their master rolls and get more stacks out of it). This means that AAs and ZAs need to be constantly spending all their CP on arrows (while still running out), or constantly hiring someone else to make arrows for them. Rangers, on the other hand, can get so many arrows that they can sell the ones they don't need.

When I've asked various people on Discord and elsewhere whether AA or Ranger Archer is better, the inconvenience of getting ammo on an AA, compared to the free ranger arrows, has consistently been brought up as one of the main determining factors. In my opinion, a primary determining factor in quality of a class shouldn't be how frustratingly inconvenient it is to be functional in combat at all.

It seems like, if one archer class is going to get free ammo, AAs and people who take Zen Archery should get the same. Arrows, etc., take a tremendous number of resources to craft, and a lot of crafting points. It would be a huge, huge improvement to both AAs and characters with Zen Archery if they could get the same benefit that ranger archers do, and generate ammo on rest.

[Aniel]

I agree. Playing an arcane archer wasn't that bad at all but I honestly hated the constant grind for silver and spending all of my CP all the time on crafting arrows and feeling like I was still on the verge of running out constantly. It was not only inconvenient but just a chore that ultimately resulted in me rolling my AA at level 16 the moment they leveled.

[Sea Shanties]

I think the ammo system is prohibitive even for casual ranged users like a rogue who pulls out a sling occasionally. The templates and ammo bundles system is great for dedicated epic archers but punishing and overcomplicated on the low end.

I wish it was a lot easier to make low-tier enchanted missiles. Like, have NPCs sell bundles of bronze ammo so non-rangers can use templates without having to craft them. You'd still have to craft better ammo (or take ranger levels) for tougher fights but bronze plus an essence or three would still be good for most PVE needs.

That, or let people just use the enchantment basin and apply essences on stacks of ammo as you were once able to do. Being able to add 1d4 damage in the enchantment basin to a stack of bronze ammo plus a 1d6 essence would give you something you could use every day with much less effort than crafting bundles but still leave a need for crafter better tier missiles.

[RedGiant]

I am constantly told how the new system is way better than it used to be. As for arrow potency, as all the tl;dr graphs will show you, this is absolutely true.

However, in the old days you could also buy stacks of cheap arrows and dump similarly cheap permanent essences on them. As a casual player of an archer, I really miss being able to do this. I also miss being able to essence found arrows, etc.

I also feel the pain of the OP in that none of my serious ranged projects were rangers. Despite all the "love" give to archery and ranged weapons, I've shelved all such projects since the implementation of the new system. Everyone says, "try it, once you get over the hump, its greaaat". Except for casual players or players who dont particularly like to craft alot...its not.


One easy solution would be to put in some unlimited ammo magic weapons. I hardly think this would break the game at this point, since the crafted ammo would crazily outshine even a +3 AB, +2 Mighty, Unlimited Ammo: + 1d6 fire bow. There are probably a handful of unlimited ammo legacy weapons from the custom enchanted boss drop days, so there is a precident. (One of my characters has one.) I think most archers would cut a finger off for one of these.

[TimeAdept]

everyone should have free unlimited basic arrows that scale up as you get levels in the class, making arrow management only a thing for magic arrows

[Disciprine Come From Within]

Honestly they should just sell arrow stacks via NPCs and have them reasonably priced and if you want cool/interesting arrows, you spend your crafting points on them.

It's dumb to me that ammunition is done the way it is with a silly expense that wasn't good to begin with involving crafting components when really good arrows should require effort rather than chest farming/hoarding for small amounts of interesting ammunition that feels too precious to use.

Heck, you could even tone up Arcane Archer quite a bit by having AA levels as requirements for interesting magic arrows. Ranger could focus on trap type arrows/bolts, and maybe have some interesting divine arrows/bolts/throwing weapons for Clerics tied to some deity specifics.

There is a route for this to be interesting if effort was put to it.

[Sockss]

Give free ammo per rest to anyone with a weapon focus in any ranged weapon (including throwing weapons).

Ranger archers are already stacked and beat out nearly every other ranged build.

Currently it's not possible to upkeep arrows for yourself unless you have outside help, or take long crafting breaks between killing things.

By virtue of being ranged you are cutting the time you are able to play the game (on all facets, rp, pve and pvp) compared to any other play style.

It's not fun. It should be changed. There's no reason to keep it like it is.

(In the meantime do what several people do and get a buddy to level a ranger to 10 to give you ammo)

[Zeskay]

I just wanted to chime in. I played an AA to max level, and before she had a place to store the heavy materials (or someone to carry them for her), and the ability to craft arrows herself, she was reliant on two different people to help her craft arrows, using CP they could be using for other things, or spending 2.5k per bundle to get by. At 5-6 attacks per round, arrows go fast. Sometimes when you factor on what you spent on arrows, the profits from adventuring are severely diminished.

Did it generate RP? Sure, but it was also a source of frustration.

Seems a bit unfair Rangers can pull out a bundle out of thin air after they take a nap, without having to use CP or bother about materials. At least some of them are gracious enough to put their extra bundles for sale cheaper.

[Braid]

I wouldn't mind the convenience but Archer path sacrifices stuff for it. Maybe a gift could be for such a convenience? A major one maybe.

[Anime Sword Fighter]

I wouldn't mind the convenience but Archer path sacrifices stuff for it. Maybe a gift could be for such a convenience? A major one maybe.

i wouldn't mind if archer got weapon focus in all ranged weapons if the arrow crafting was given to more classes

[facesmash]

I play a ranger...who is also an AA. Let me tell you how nice ~that~ is. Still I can understand the frustrations of having to constantly grind out bundles. I honestly couldn't imagine what that would be like, but I suppose that just adds to the incentives of playing a ranger(archer) AA over a bard/AA/PDL build or some such.

My thoughts were always this: I figured these classes got these added sub classes, benefits because they were shown to have a statistical shortage compared to other classes and archtypes. To give more diversity among the classes that are in arelith, instead of everyone just playing STR Katana monk build #465.

[Sockss]

I wouldn't mind the convenience but Archer path sacrifices stuff for it. Maybe a gift could be for such a convenience? A major one maybe.

Archer path doesn't sacrifice anything for it, they gain a huge amount for archery, since the merging of ranger paths.

This also isn't a mechanics discussion so much as a quality of life discussion.

Nothing gets more or less powerful, it just allows ranged characters other than ranger archers to play more.

[Subutai]

I wouldn't mind the convenience but Archer path sacrifices stuff for it. Maybe a gift could be for such a convenience? A major one maybe.

I might be missing something, but could you give examples for this? To the best of my understanding, archer path does sacrifice some of the crazy damage output of AA in exchange for increased versatility and survivability, and is arguably the better build for it. AAs tend to be more in the vein of glass cannons than ranger archers.

There's nothing wrong with one build being tougher and the other doing more damage. It's simply a tradeoff. I wouldn't say, in my limited understanding, that archer path sacrifices anything in order to get free arrows.

[Mattamue]

For tradeoffs between the two...

Ranger Archer path means never being able to pierce DR. AA gets +5 at level 9.

AA leads handily in called shot DC. Damage was called out, but the AA enchantment plays a big part here.

I'd say AE is a check on the ranger side.

Otherwise, I like the idea of buffs for qol.

Maybe every ranged focus get the auto bundle, but it's 5 uses, and increase the uses on crafted bundles? Having more people in the crafting market should increase those interested in the supply and materials.

[Sockss]

Ranger beats AA in damage in the critical ranges of AC by quite a way (Provided it's an FE)

AA catches up once you True Strike pot, however Ranger beats out AA if you factor the first-flurry flat foot you get from HIPS (sans TS).

Not to mention the hugely increased utility, spells, hp, skills and free feats the ranger has.

The AA really only excels in a 1v1 scenario where they already have distance, so they can TS and spam CS - however that is very rare and a ranger still wins out most match ups in that scenario anyway.

Prem in most situations will be breached, especially since you want to knock energy buffer/pfe off to maximise damage. It's not a huge advantage to be able to pierce.

With the nix to monk speed caps and the divine 2h removal, AA's aren't in a great spot (nor were they prior to that tbf).

[Astral]

Arelith ammo system has always been a source of frustration to archers except for rangers who became the go-to archer because of the arrows. I think arcane archers should get the same ability as rangers at class lvl 1 (iron), 5 (steel), 10 (demask).

[Aodh Lazuli]

Yes, I think AAs and characters with the zen archery feat should get free ammo creation in the same manner as archer path rangers do.

[Shadowy Reality]

I don't understand why characters with Zen Archery should be treated differently. Zen Archery is not a requirement to use ranged weapons, it is a choice, with pros and cons.

I personally am not a a fan of giving free ammo, but would rather see the arrow crafting process made faster instead.

[Griefmaker]

The labor and cost and everything to make bundles should definitely be decreased, but even better would be for NPC smiths to just sell bundles of ammo for fairly cheap.

100 gold for a bundle of bronze
300 gold for a bundle of iron
700 gold for a bundle of steel
1000 gold for a bundle of damask

That way, anyone can have access to them with relative ease (just another cost of adventuring, like heal kits or portal lenses), they are consumable so cheaper unlike a sword which is a buy once per tier, and archer path keeps the small cookie in that they do not have to buy or make.

[NauVaseline]

Current system is a massive improvement, doesn't mean it can't be improved further.

[Archnon]

I want to premise this by saying that I think that basic iron bundles should be sold in stores, or at least make them easier to craft.

That being said, I think this conversation is ignoring the fact that it is totally reasonable to take a ranger dip if you want to play an archer class of any kind. They even changed how you can take paths to make this a viable option. I mean, we take dips all the time. We can make a list of things that would make dips unnecessary, like UMD as a cross-class skill for everyone, spellcraft too for that matter, HIPS for anyone with ESF Hide and a maxed out hide stat. Or we can even open up classes to everyone like AA and Dwarven Defender.

The point of these perks is to encourage certain combinations of classes and DIPS and for better or worse, that is what this game and this server emphasizes. If you give everyone access to perks like free arrow creation, it changes that dynamic a lot. Why play a ranger archer at all and not just a pure fighter or pure rogue? I think you need a better argument than QOL to get something like this through.

[Sockss]

You'd play a ranged ranger archer over a pure fighter or rogue because the former is better at being an archer.

The reason its qol is because bundles aren't ranger only. They're not exclusive. Anyone can get and use them.

So it doesn't change things from a balance pov.

[Subutai]

I think you need a better argument than QOL to get something like this through.

I think just the opposite. It isn't an issue of balance that would need to be contemplated and adjusted all across the server, suddenly breaking all kinds of builds and becoming rife for exploitation. It's simply an issue of arrows for rangers and arrows for everyone else who uses bows (and bolts, bullets, shurikens, etc.) being at entirely opposite sides of the spectrum.

At level 10, rangers get a free bundle of damask arrows every rest. That's equivalent to 1/3 softwood, 1 clay, 4 coal, 4 iron, 2 silver (!), and 40 CP for free, all created with a free 30 points in forging or carpentry. No one else gets that. For every other ranged weapon user, including equivalent archer-specialty AA, they have to constantly be hunting for wood, clay, coal, iron, and (infuriatingly, because it's way harder to find) silver, all the time, constantly, at every hour of the day. Either that, or they have to make constant treks around the island to find silver in various settlements, which often costs 300+ per chunk.

So, if we ignore the softwood, clay, coal, and iron entirely (which we shouldn't, since all combined it probably would cost them 500 GP), that's a minimum of 600 GP per bundle, plus 40 CP. If they don't have masterly in carpentry or forging, that's one bundle every 2 hours or so. If they don't have carpentry or forging to the level of making a 30 DC roll reliably, they're hiring someone at 1200 GP, plus 600 GP for the silver, which is 1800 GP. Add on that 500 from other materials and you have 2300 GP. Or you can buy them in a shop for 2500 GP.

The Gift of Wealth was just buffed to give characters who take it 5000 GP per IG month. Rangers get 5000 GP per two rests. Meanwhile, AAs and everyone else who uses ranged weapons are spending that much just to go out an do a writ or two even without factoring in any scrolls, potions, and wands they use.

The difference in QoL isn't minor or a slight inconvenience. It's a major difference in QoL.

At the very minimum, the cost of making arrows should be seriously decreased, and the necessity of using materials like silver (which, again, can be extremely difficult to come by) should be gotten rid of entirely.

[Sea Shanties]

I think you need a better argument than QOL to get something like this through.

There's no magic formula for getting something changed (it's all up to whatever devs are around and inspired) but I think QOL is as valid a reason for improvement as mechanical balance.

I want to premise this by saying that I think that basic iron bundles should be sold in stores, or at least make them easier to craft.

Yeah.. selling basic bronze bundles in stores would be a very quick fix that would allow non-rangers easy access to templates (which themselves still need to be bought/crafted so there's still effort required.) Seems like that would level the playing field in a big way.

[Subutai]

Yeah.. selling basic bronze bundles in stores would be a very quick fix that would allow non-rangers easy access to templates (which themselves still need to be bought/crafted so there's still effort required.) Seems like that would level the playing field in a big way.

Not only bought and crafted, but enchanted and repaired. For a stable template, that's the one time purchase of the template itself, the one time purchase of two permanent essences, and then the ongoing purchases of tons of darkfire, bladethirst, etc., scrolls and the frequent repairs the templates need. Plus, like every other class, they need to have their weapons crafted and maintained in the first place.

The arrows themselves are a third thing they need crafted. A merchant selling bronze arrows would be great, but the ongoing cost of having access to damask arrows is still extremely, extremely high, and even moreso when you factor in the necessity of having the weapon crafted, and having the template crafted/maintained/enchanted.