Monk Feedback :)

[Dreams]

Hi :)

I've been playing a monk character as my main for a while now. Monks are one of my favourite classes in DnD in general. Let me tell you, there is nothing more hilarious than a group of Shaolin students sitting on the floor and playing monk characters in a DnD campaign.

But back on topic: Monks are so Snuggle a Bugbear strong on Arelith now. You get a million free feats. You can literally play this class and just hit the recommend button with any layout and still end up with an extremely powerful character.

They get all of these feats for weapons, but not for fists? Fists are the cornerstone of monks in DnD. They're the base to build from. You learn fist forms, then you learn weapon forms. I don't understand why this was overlooked. Please let me clarify, I am NOT asking for another free feat here. Maybe ditch all of the weapons and give the fists for free?

You get Epic Dodge for free. Easily argued to be the best feat in the game.

You get Haste (Blinding Speed) for free. Easily the most useful spell in the game.

You get a shitload of SR, and it is very easy to pump that because there's absolutely no opportunity cost since you get EVERYTHING for free.

Surely there are big nerfs incoming (there really needs to be!), but soon? Monks have been in a laughably overpowered state for long time now. I saw the change, thought 'Haha wow that's crazy!' and a few weeks later decided to roll up a monk character. It's been a fair amount of time since then, still sitting on godmode, wondering when the gravytrain is going to end.

Monks are the S+ tier PvP/PvE. Nothing compares. Nothing gets so much for free. I like free stuff as much as the next guy, but this is too much free stuff.

(I know this comes off as really ranty and I love you all but this is a massive imbalance and I want to raise awareness for the team to understand/deal with it.)

[Tarkus the dog]

Hey let me play them first, then you can nerf them.

[Subutai]

It really does needs to be better sooner rather than later. Monks have been obviously broken for months now. Would really love some dev perspective on this.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

We have two big discussions on this a page back on feedback including a slight attempt to present numbers. I want to have a tame/slight nerf in comparison to some people in the community have been asking; the nature of my compliants being focus on actaul numbers of builds so that only small tweaks are required. I dont care about all feats being free or a player being able to hit recommend button on their whole level up. I csre very little about players requiring graphs to play DnD.

What i do care is how optomized builds compared to each other.

If they just started with taking away epic dodge and giving defensive roll for free instead (so can start by having epic dodge as 30th lvl feat still) and then remove the -twohand command from katanas. And maybe slightly tweak ki fist bonuses, then we would have a start.

*edit* i also think free blinding speed is a problem.

[DM Axis]

Changes for the monk class are scheduled. Keep an eye on the announcements for that future update.

[Ebonstar]

can we have whats being discussed for changes before they are changed.

it seems ridiculous to nerf monks back to being a subpar class after two months of finally being able to stand on their own.

are we truly sending the message that pvp builds and git gud is what Arelith is about now?

maybe actually have current monks and their builds examined before anything is changed so the devs can see active variations?

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

can we have whats being discussed for changes before they are changed.

it seems ridiculous to nerf monks back to being a subpar class after two months of finally being able to stand on their own.

are we truly sending the message that pvp builds and git gud is what Arelith is about now?

maybe actually have current monks and their builds examined before anything is changed so the devs can see active variations?

Although i do not agree with all of ebonstar's points in previous discussions. Some kind of heads up would be nice. My katana monk weaponmaster goblin would have feats and wm levels completely wasted if change was unmonking katanas as an example. Or if Some thing like removing uncanny dodge would wreck monks without ranger/rogue/SD/etc. I level up really slow ( i played twice this week and lost what i gained the second time). If it's small tweaks, I am happy, but making characters completely invalid could be frustrating.

[DM Axis]

First off, I said changes. You're welcome to assume what they might be.

Second, unless there is prior roleplay there is little in the way of warnings of changes to classes, areas, and any other aspects of Arelith.
So this will be no different.

[The Rambling Midget]

can we have whats being discussed for changes before they are changed.

The devs' decision making process has never been beholden to the playerbase's whims. I don't see why they'd start that now.

it seems ridiculous to nerf monks back to being a subpar class after two months of finally being able to stand on their own.

Who said anything about nerfing? This will most likely be a much needed rebalance. Monk is the single best overall class right now. It has no counterplay. That's bad. All it does it make people avoid contact with them.

are we truly sending the message that pvp builds and git gud is what Arelith is about now?

What? Where are you getting this stuff from?

maybe actually have current monks and their builds examined before anything is changed so the devs can see active variations?

Don't you think they've been examining monk performance, in order to formulate their changes?

Ranting like this will do nothing to sway the devs, and only weakens your credibility. If you have concerns, try reasonable questions instead of wild insinuations.

[Subutai]

Changes for the monk class are scheduled. Keep an eye on the announcements for that future update.

Thank you, Axis and rest of the team! Much appreciated. Looking forward to seeing what's in the works.

[Sea Shanties]

Not crazy about the way he said it but I do understand. I’ve had characters that had the rug yanked from under them before with class changes and it can be disheartening. It’s probably my least favorite thing about Arelith but the positives (including that they are working to breathe new life into an old game) makes up for it, at least for me.

But.. As someone who takes a long time to level and who wants to try to avoid being hit by changes in the future I’ve pretty much adopted these rules for the heavily tweaked classes:

- Don’t rush to play something shiny and new. Wait until a nerf or two comes in.

- Play a recommended and common build. If the class gets mucked with they’re going to assume that’s what everyone plays and base their changes on it. Likewise if you found an overpowered loophole assume it'll get closed.

- When planning a build start with feats like Blind Fight that everybody needs and try to take the feats that might be experimental, optional or subject to change last. This might make leveling less fun but if you have to drop levels to rebuild it’s best to have expendable feats last.

If you can level rapidly and if you go through characters often this probably doesn’t apply to you and you can enjoy that the first draft of an updated class is often overpowered!

Anyway, that won’t help you completely avoid the nerf hammer (sometimes these changes come from out of the blue) but you can definitely expect something as massive as the monk update to be tweaked significantly.

[Zavandar]

+1 sea shanties

monks really do need a nerf tho. untouchable sr with ab in the mid 40's and ac in the mid 60's simultaneously is a little wild.

i say this as someone that does a lot of building. there are certain builds that i refuse to play despite how OP i know they would be. 30 monks are one of them. a well-played 30 monk has to be incredibly careless to die. they don't have the pressure of a wm, sure, but they are infinitely harder to kill, and it's easier to get by without UMD than it's ever been, too. between nep potions, death ward potions, freedom potions, items that breach, the buffs to empty body/wholeness of body, outright mind immunity, skleen AC change (a buff to anyone that doesn't use shields), and gonnes (for what the monk can't hit, and they're dex based so the ranged touch ab will be good), monks just have no weaknesses.

they got way too much at once, likely to make up for losing the uncapped movement speed. changes i'd make are:

cap sr and make it breachable
give them defensive roll so they have to buy edodge
do not give them blinding speed for free
do not give them crit feats for free
potentially reduce the bonus damage from ki strike, etc

the class will not be weak with these changes. it will just be killable. maybe we can look at druids after that, too.

[Subutai]

Only tangentially related, is it possible to release future class changes for any class to PGCC first, several weeks before the release to the main servers? This would allow the builders to go crazy with their ideas on how to get the most out of the new class, and they could report any exploitable or overpowered changes to the devs in time for the devs to analyze before release.

This wouldn't really have any downsides, as far as I can see. Anyone who found something to be overpowered or exploitable and didn't report certainly wouldn't do so when released to the main server, and most of the best builds (new builds for monks, for example) are figured out within hours or days of the changes being made public anyway.

[DM Axis]

When the changes go live, the PGCC also has to be reset to catch up with these changes. All of the servers operate on the same rules and codes. Giving a clue or an advantage to these changes would ensure that the focus is entirely on builds and not on the characters being played on Arelith.

This is the current nature of Arelith Updates as it has been for the lifetime of the server. Whether it's a challenge for the code deployment or simply ensuring that the updates are done without any sort of favoritism or reward for data farmers, any change to the deployment of the updates would be decided by the administration and development team.

[Flowing water]

There really weren't that many full monks prior to their buffs they received. Seemed most folks just dipped for the free IKD/tumble dump/ +AC from Wis.

Monk SR is pretty spicy, yeah, but any full caster can get through them with improved spell pen. They're meant to be mage killers, and Q palm only works on creatures lower level than the monk, meaning it's useless against any same level char as the monk.
Stunning fist only lasts 1 round too, and from what I've seen lots of folks just stack fort and Con gear to make up for this.

They're very good at surviving encounters, but as someone who doesn't go about pvping very much, I can't really speak on that battlefield. You need to invest a lot to get those things, which I think is fine. I don't think monk SR should be breachable, though. That would only make mages inherently more powerful than they already are.

[Subutai]

There really weren't that many full monks prior to their buffs they received. Seemed most folks just dipped for the free IKD/tumble dump/ +AC from Wis.

Monk SR is pretty spicy, yeah, but any full caster can get through them with improved spell pen. They're meant to be mage killers, and Q palm only works on creatures lower level than the monk, meaning it's useless against any same level char as the monk.
Stunning fist only lasts 1 round too, and from what I've seen lots of folks just stack fort and Con gear to make up for this.

They're very good at surviving encounters, but as someone who doesn't go about pvping very much, I can't really speak on that battlefield. You need to invest a lot to get those things, which I think is fine. I don't think monk SR should be breachable, though. That would only make mages inherently more powerful than they already are.

I don't disagree with the SR, because as you said, they're meant to be mage killers. The problem right now is that monks are pretty much everything-killers. Between super high AC and free epic dodge, a parry monk can pretty much just hide in parry mode and riposte everything to death. There are some tactics to beat it, involving IKD, whirlwind attack, and breaking combat, but a primarily mage-killer class shouldn't be able to just turn on parry mode and go AFK while they kill melee characters, and resist every spell mages throw at them meanwhile.

The problem with monk isn't that it's impossible to beat them at all. It's the effort involved. For a monk to kill almost anything requires very little effort (only time), and for anything to kill a monk requires very careful, specific tactics. It's a huge mismatch in power.

[Zavandar]

many monks can easily reach 48 sr atm

most casters cap at 27 cl

they literally cannot beat the SR. grabbing 3 sr feats puts them at 33 cl vs 48 sr, meaning they only win on a 15. a 3 feat investment to give them a 30% chance for their spell to go through. they're mind immune and have decent reflex already (assuming 30 monk and 38 dex, you're looking at 31 reflex before spellcraft or any uni on gear), leaving fort as the only save that can maybe work, but now there's death ward potions that are extremely difficult to dispel off of mundanes and that'll cover most fort saves (and a freedom potion would cover most reflex, but those are at least breachable).

you see how crazy this is, right?

[Ebonstar]

+1 sea shanties

monks really do need a nerf tho. untouchable sr with ab in the mid 40's and ac in the mid 60's simultaneously is a little wild.

i say this as someone that does a lot of building. there are certain builds that i refuse to play despite how OP i know they would be. 30 monks are one of them. a well-played 30 monk has to be incredibly careless to die. they don't have the pressure of a wm, sure, but they are infinitely harder to kill, and it's easier to get by without UMD than it's ever been, too. between nep potions, death ward potions, freedom potions, items that breach, the buffs to empty body/wholeness of body, outright mind immunity, skleen AC change (a buff to anyone that doesn't use shields), and gonnes (for what the monk can't hit, and they're dex based so the ranged touch ab will be good), monks just have no weaknesses.

they got way too much at once, likely to make up for losing the uncapped movement speed. changes i'd make are:

cap sr and make it breachable
give them defensive roll so they have to buy edodge
do not give them blinding speed for free
do not give them crit feats for free
potentially reduce the bonus damage from ki strike, etc

the class will not be weak with these changes. it will just be killable. maybe we can look at druids after that, too.

ok since everyone says use numbers. esr three feats add two per feat that is 6 so max sr for a monk is 46 not 48 if they use the three epic feats for sr. yes they only get three 21 25 and 30

only if you are a dex build could you reach for epic dodge with it being as it is. which would still not happen until level 30 then because thats the only level lmonks get a feat to choose after qualifying with the dex and tumble

so only if you take the three sr feats are you an untouchable mage killer or are they.

have now got the four monk items the sash robes wraps and beads. they are all wis primary bonuses except for the sash which is a con bonus so with the mainline monk gear you get plus 6 wis plus 2 con and you can rune the wraps and robe.

when you look at the items as a whole, they are nice but not supergod like.

if you go standard route everyone who fights melee who gets the option takes armor skin for the perm plus 2 ac.

ill give example of my monk sitting at level 29

right now sitting unbuffed at 41ac 35/32/29/26/23 unarmed 21 str 20 dex 20 con 14 int 30 wis 9 cha 46 ac with exp

now sure i guess you can be a parry monk, but using a shield cancels your monk ac bonus and your ki bonuses

if you stay unarmed you can avoid spells, the plan is 40 sr at finish simply because I took armor skin and esf dis and plan for tumble at 30 which takes the ac to 43/48

monks are still unkillable right?

incorrect .

anything using an essence enhanced weapon, be it blade or ammunition, cuts through a monk like paper. because the magic cancels the 20 soak from perfect body.

as said above anyone at level 30 is immune to q palm, so no instant touch death.

blinding speed only gives a flurry bonus attack if not using flurry already, there is no speed bonus. unlike rogues who can match the speed and still sneak or crip strike a monk.

monk ki bonuses are all bludegeoning which make sense, so anyone geared to soak bludgeon damage counters the ki bonus and only if the monk is using fists to begin with. so there is already a counter with standard gear for that

now the above ab set i wrote is with the ab bonuses of ki added in. the most ive seen, with an epic mage buffing is a 53 ac and 40/37 and down ab set.

i do know that there is a monk with walk around 51 ac, but because he spent his points to that, his weakness is his low disc, which opens him up to being ganked by ikd and called shots and even buffed up he has great AC but still under 40 AB

imo there is no perfect unkillable monk even a dex build because you give up other parts, that as mentioned if you use tactics, and shouldnt we all think before going to pvp monks are very killable.

how someone gets 60 ac and 45 ab at the same time with the same build, seems implausible. you are either str or you are dex, you cannot have it both ways.

and my example of a wis dominant is a teeter totter balance of the two.

[Zavandar]

i think i know what i'm talking about

EDIT: add 1 from boots, 1 from druid-brewed barkskin potions, and you can add an ab with aid potions too. 45 ab and 62 ac at the same time.

[Cerk Evermoore]

Monks weakness is fortitude, if enough 30 monks show up it would really bring back the implosion cleric.

[Ragir]

I just don't see it happening.

Monks are a niche class. Not something for everyone.

[Aodh Lazuli]

ill give example of my monk sitting at level 29

right now sitting unbuffed at 41ac 35/32/29/26/23 unarmed 21 str 20 dex 20 con 14 int 30 wis 9 cha 46 ac with exp

I'll be honest, dude... that looks like you're actually trying to make it bad.

[Hunter548]

Monks weakness is fortitude, if enough 30 monks show up it would really bring back the implosion cleric.

I dunno why this keeps having to be stated, but if you go pure monk and take four SR feats, you can't be hurt by casters. They can't beat your SR. Your fort save could be as low as you want, and it won't matter if they can't get past your SR. You have 48 SR, and the caster has to roll a 21 to pierce it.

[Poolbrain]

Acid sheath scrolls. Web and grease against str monks, drop summon on that.

[Hexgoblin]

Worth to note that a class being meant as a "mage killer" by design shouldn't mean that a spellcaster has zero counterplay ability against it. It should be an uphill battle, and not a solid stone wall. Versus 46-48 SR, which a monk in its current state of plentiful free feats can pick up leisurely, any conventional caster will automatically lose. Heck. A dedicated SR piercer who's pureclassed and penetration invested will fail too, unless really banking on the monk having no fortitude gear or death ward running, while spamming death spells with a 30% or less chance to break through. Which isn't a sustainable combat strategy, let's be real.

Mage matchups aside, with katanas being granted full monk APR and monks already packing considerable inherent AC, plus the addition of free epic dodge and weaponry feats - they're bruisers who'll trade favorably with the vast majority of melee builds. They're not untouchable, no. But they're very difficult to touch. Which would be fine if they weren't completely impervious to the alternative approach of spellcasting. Their only real drawback is a mediocre AB, which doesn't constitute a threat to the monk. The monk doesn't have a natural predator in the Arelith food chain, but only matchups in which they'll either stomp, trade well or be able to comfortably remove themselves.

No summon has the AB to compete with the AC of a buffed monk. Or even one as he is with only IE running. That is unless you pull an Ebonstar and by choice hamstring your own character severely. Which isn't something that you can make balance decisions around. Balance decisions on any game, for the health of a community at large, have to be made around a peaking hypothetical. Especially when it's this easy to achieve.

You don't need to break the server rules to do harm to a community. Having far too ready access to IG resources, such as adamantine or runic materials with which to flood a market, or a default, mechanics-ensured victory condition in fully story supported PvP is still harmful. Neither is a situation where a DM can single a player out and tell them that they've done something wrong, because they haven't. That's a development issue, not an enforcement one. The mechanics that readily enable these things thus need to change.

The monk overhaul, while very cool and absolutely a stellar job by the people who worked on it - is very experimental. Much like with all experimental things, and the vast majority of large-scale class changes that preceded it, adjustments will typically follow when a desired mark is overshot. You can't expect perfection on the first take, and I'm confident that well-needed adjustments will come with subsequent ones. Or at least I hope so.