Discussion: Extra Skill Point / Level for everyone

[DangerDolphin]

Original Suggestion:

As this is easy to do now, I would like to suggest it being done for every class. My reasoning is as follows:

- New skills were added to NWN in expansions and patches, For example, craft x feats, Tumble, Ride, etc. As far as I know classes did not have their skill points boosted in the expansions to be able to take these.

- Skills are very important in Arelith compared to the main campaign, which they were originally balanced for.

- High int is already very desirable for many combat feats (e.g, expertise, disarm, all WM builds) and also used for determining number of languages that can be learnt. As a result, intelligence-based builds are generally superior (e.g. wizard > sorcerer) and characters that wouldn't usually want to take the stat have to do so anyway to be able to take the skills they want.

- Many skills are virtually compulsory and the server is balanced towards this. For instance, it's expected any dex character will have tumble for AC, that most characters have spellcraft for saves, that everyone will have discipline, etc. This leaves little room for variation after you take the "must haves"

- Many classes are skill point starved, example non-human clerics get 2/level and generally don't have much room to put into INT, meaning they can't take skills that might make RP sense such as heal and persuade, without crippling their combat power.

- This would give more room for changes down the line, for instance if it was wanted to add a new skill with HAKs or making crafting linked to the Craft X skill groups rather than giving everyone crafting skills for free.

I realise this was a bit of a dramatic suggestion and saw the one above suggesting things be discussed more, so wanted to open this up for debate.

[Sockss]

Original Suggestion: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=24882

I realise this was a bit of a dramatic suggestion and saw the one above suggesting things be discussed more, so wanted to open this up for debate.

<3

I wasn't singling you out at all though, just so you know!

- New skills were added to NWN in expansions and patches, For example, craft x feats, Tumble, Ride, etc. As far as I know classes did not have their skill points boosted in the expansions to be able to take these.

- Skills are very important in Arelith compared to the main campaign, which they were originally balanced for.

Things are based around pnp 3.5, which has significantly more skills to be able to choose, which also has the same SP cap for classes.

They're not more or less important, I suppose you could argue selection is more important because of PvP which isn't present in single player but, that holds true for most games.

Why pnp does this, at least why I think it does that, I'll explain below.

- High int is already very desirable for many combat feats (e.g, expertise, disarm, all WM builds) and also used for determining number of languages that can be learnt. As a result, intelligence-based builds are generally superior (e.g. wizard > sorcerer) and characters that wouldn't usually want to take the stat have to do so anyway to be able to take the skills they want.

Sorcerers are better than wizards.

Wizards are the only intelligence based builds.

High int = more skills, which is good, but you also trade other stats, which isn't so good.

This is why you'll see 'optimal' builds only getting enough int to cover what they deem to be necessary to their combat proficiency, because that is the only basis on which optimal builds are judged.

- Many skills are virtually compulsory and the server is balanced towards this. For instance, it's expected any dex character will have tumble for AC, that most characters have spellcraft for saves, that everyone will have discipline, etc. This leaves little room for variation after you take the "must haves"

That is entirely true, there are things that are considered must haves, however I disagree that the small room of variation after the must haves is bad.

What I think you're trying to achieve with the suggestion, and correct me if I'm wrong, is more diversity in builds. Which is a good thing.

However the suggestion actually doesn't do that.

What it encourages is people taking less intelligence, as they can fit all their combat capable skills with less, and then boosting another stat. What it will cause, for most things, is a huge knock on effect for balance. A changed sneaker/detector meta, higher AB, AC, HP and higher saves. People still won't take persuade.

If people weren't able to do that, say if you limited what that free skill could be used on, it normalises skills and reduces diversity. Something like bluff, for example, everyone would now have - it becomes a lot less special, it becomes the standard. At that point assigning the skill is useless, you might as well give everyone the benefits based on their CL.

PC's are different, because they make choices. Whether you get that 1 ab / damage, or grab another 2 maxed skills (Which actually, for a lot of things is not as clear cut as looking at a damage graph). If you don't make any choices, then there's no diversity.

What I think would be fantastic for diversity, is not increasing the availability of meme skills (or not as the case would be without limitations), but making them more valuable. People don't take persuade because it's utterly useless, not because they can't get the skill points for it.

[Irongron]

I've been too busy this week (and now due to the Tyrants announcement) to answer this suggestion, but will do before long.

What we do about skill points has already been under discussion, with my own preference being to have it based on more than just intelligence. 3 types of learning, where the highest stat bonus determines the bonus skill points.

Endurance Learning (because one needs stamina to study) Based on Con.
Contemplative Learning (Just, you know, thinking about stuff) Based on Wis
And Studious Learning (as we already have) based on Int

I think removing the need for classes such as ranger, barbarian and paladin to invest in INT in order to gain bonus skill points will open up new concepts.

Further to that we are also considering a new minor gift, which will grant skill points (either a extra amount at level 1, or per level)

I'll reply to that and other recent suggestions when I next have the time.

[Cortex]

I've been too busy this week (and now due to the Tyrants announcement) to answer this suggestion, but will do before long.

What we do about skill points has already been under discussion, with my own preference being to have it based on more than just intelligence. 3 types of learning, where the highest stat bonus determines the bonus skill points.

Endurance Learning (because one needs stamina to study) Based on Con.
Contemplative Learning (Just, you know, thinking about stuff) Based on Wis
And Studious Learning (as we already have) based on Int

I think removing the need for classes such as ranger, barbarian and paladin to invest in INT in order to gain bonus skill points will open up new concepts.

Further to that we are also considering a new minor gift, which will grant skill points (either a extra amount at level 1, or per level)

I'll reply to that and other recent suggestions when I next have the time.

Barbarians already have 4+int which covers everything they need on very low int builds, with 13-14 INT they get excess points to spend as is.
Rangers already get +2 skill points per level, which has been a topic of debate that may be too strong (if its too strong or not isn't relevant so much as it's good enough to have warranted attention).
Paladin is already one of the strongest classes in the current ecosystem.

There is absolutely no need to increase skill points for any class. If anything needs to be done, is a nerf to HIPS so the requirement of detection isn't as overwhelming. A gift of +1 skill shouldn't ever be considered a minor, it's essentially a gift of intelligence but at lower cost, it shouldn't be a gift at all, especially when existing minor gifts give a maximum of 8 skill points.

[Sockss]

Please, please don't do any of that. That would be the single worst balance decision that was ever made.

[Peppermint]

As has been said, granting more skill points isn't going to "open new concepts". It's just going to encourage players to put fewer points into intelligence.

If you want to encourage players to take a greater variety of non-combat skills, then your best bet is probably to put those skills on a separate progression track altogether. For example, a menu at character creation and/or level up may allow to designate "minor" skills (e.g. appraise, bluff, persuade, search) that gain ranks for free.

(Caveat: Personally, I don't feel non-combat skills really have a place in a persistent world setting. They're extremely difficult to balance against combat skills overall.

If going down this route regardless, care would have to be taken to rebalance skills, lest everyone just take bluff--or whatever the "best" minor skill is.)

[Irongron]

As has been said, granting more skill points isn't going to "open new concepts". It's just going to encourage players to put fewer points into intelligence.

If you want to encourage players to take a greater variety of non-combat skills, then your best bet is probably to put those skills on a separate progression track altogether. For example, a menu at character creation and/or level up may allow to designate "minor" skills (e.g. appraise, bluff, persuade, search) that gain ranks for free.

This has also been part of the discussion within the team, where skills would be broken down into groups, and likely governed by the different stats.

EDIT:

Please, please don't do any of that. That would be the single worst balance decision that was ever made.

I don't disagree. With the current imbalance between the utility of skills, more skill points would just mean more to skilldump into those few 'useful' skills, which would be a major moment of powercreep. It is therefore clear we have to either curb skilldumping (which we will not be doing) or adjust the utility of certain skills before any skill point increase can be considered. While I expect you will draw little comfort from hearing it, there are advanced plans there also.

[Tarkus the dog]

Finally a nerf to the wizards we all have been waiting for.

[Dean]

Certain classes could use a few extra skill points but what I feel is more useful to these classes are more class skills. I specifically refer to Sorcerer due to the fact that as a Charisma based Spellcaster it does not get either Bluff or Perform, which are not necessary but are nice to have, and few other useful skills beyond Spellcraft and Concentration. Combine that with the fact that they don't get a lot of intelligence they are somewhat lacking in skill points and skill options.

[Sockss]

If you want more skills, take more int.

What is wrong with that paradigm?

It gives skills value (which they don't have if they're free)
It allows skills to be a balancing point between classes (Which they heavily are currently).
It allows diversity.

Does any new system allow for those things? Probably not.
If it does allow for all those things, what does it do that's different? Probably nothing?

There's no problem here to solve.

While you mention major powercreep is not something you want, what you've outlined is powercreep.

More useful skills. (Powercreep)
Give more skill points. (Powercreep)
Allow for the acquisition of skill points along with save/hp increases (Powercreep)

[Memelord]

As has been said, granting more skill points isn't going to "open new concepts". It's just going to encourage players to put fewer points into intelligence.

I very much doubt this will end up being the case. Why? Because 13-14 INT is standard on basically every build for Imp. Expertise. People cannot put fewer points into INT, because it'll disqualify them from what's almost a universally meta feat. You wouldn't suddenly see a bunch of low INT characters running around because, even with a free extra skillpoint/lvl, having 13-14 INT anyways would still be the meta for almost every build that anticipates getting into melee combat at all.

[Xerah]

As has been said, granting more skill points isn't going to "open new concepts". It's just going to encourage players to put fewer points into intelligence.

I very much doubt this will end up being the case. Why? Because 13-14 INT is standard on basically every build for Imp. Expertise. People cannot put fewer points into INT, because it'll disqualify them from what's almost a universally meta feat. You wouldn't suddenly see a bunch of low INT characters running around because, even with a free extra skillpoint/lvl, having 13-14 INT anyways would still be the meta for almost every build that anticipates getting into melee combat at all.

Exactly, who benefits the most are:

Who would benefit:
2h Barbarians ignoring AC (+4 and +2 for the 1h version getting Imp exp)
Clerics (+2 or more)
Druids (+3 or as much as +8)
Weapon Masters (+1 for the most part)
Monk (+3+ more)

[Cortex]

Taunt is now useless, because everyone has concentration.
Save spells are worse off, because crossclassing spellcraft is made easier.
Bards become even stronger with Curse Song.
Stealth becomes near pointless as detection is made widely available and easy.
Everyone's got a horse.
Item gearing becomes a juggling circus as characters need to equip and unequip items to beat stealth, disguise, taunt, etc, and vice versa.

13-14 INT being the norm isn't exclusive to melee characters, but to all characters. Why? The cost to increase INT from 8 to 14 is 1 per point, two point investments will grant you +1 skill per level, a good stat as any to throw odd points at. Characters that do not benefit from Expertise(and those that do as well) still enjoy having 12-14 INT for good skills, which is a valid build decision to have or not to have, it's balance of build choice and variation.

If you suddenly got free skill points across all characters, WMs would be able to stealth, bards would become god kings (as if they aren't already), non meleers would afford less INT for more CON or their primary/secondary stat, and/or all INT investment does not change, because it's still a low point investment, and they benefit from having concentration, taunt, craft points, etc.

It won't promote variation, more characters having more things means they're more alike each other than otherwise.

Exactly, who benefits the most are:

Who would benefit:
2h Barbarians ignoring AC (+4 and +2 for the 1h version getting Imp exp)
Clerics (+2 or more)
Druids (+3 or as much as +8)
Weapon Masters (+1 for the most part)
Monk (+3+ more)

So the classes with the fewest skill points benefit the least. lol

Barbarian couldn't give less of a damn about skill points, the blender horc double weapon barb of the 10 INT variant has everything they need as is (discipline, detection, UMD, last skill interchangeable). They'd just max both spot and listen for the memes, I already could do that with my tribal barbarian if I wanted.

Clerics need discipline, spellcraft, some UMD, concentration and that's it.

Druids don't even need skill points right now, they're demigods without them.

WMs are balanced by the fact they have a lot of feats and not many skill points. WMs were, are and will always be solid. They only fall short due to lack of detection and that's only because True Seeing got nerfed really hard coupled with HIPS getting really good.

Monks (I'm going to assume post nerfs because they're also laughably busted right now) do not need more skills, you already have very valid options to pick from and make decisions on, and even then you could afford to cut stealth and be potent without it because of permanent 150% move speed.

[Peppermint]

Piffle. Even by your admission, players are investing 13-14 points. 14 is certainly more common. With more skill points granted for free, 13 becomes the norm for frontline melees.

However, frontline melees are far from the only archetype on Arelith.

Archers do not take expertise.

Casters do not take expertise.

Shadowdancers (and glass cannon builds in general) do not take expertise.

Most of the classes that would benefit from more skill points certainly don't need the love, either.

[Sockss]

13 int would be meta on a exp using melee.
Any ranged or non-wizard caster build would have, optimally, very low IQ.
Humans would be significantly less desirable as a race.

In return you would see higher ac, ab, hp and saves.

And, honestly, if you don't see the problem with say, everyone being given free hide / ms / taunt / conc / detect, then you really have a lot to learn about PvP.

[Durvayas]

It might be worth it to add additional skill points to certain classes at certain points. One of the big reasons for dips, besides the mandatory UMD dip, is that crossclass skills suddenly are class skills, and you don't have to crossclass purchase them.

I'd propose a big skill point boost at lvl 28-30 in a pure build, to make the lack of crossclassing less painful.

It also might be worth it to make UMD available to all classes, but only as a class skill for rogues, bards, and assassins.
This would make dipping optional, rather than mandatory. If you balance this with additional skill points on 28-30 for pureclassing, you make pure fighters actually viable, and pureclassing less of an intentional self-gimping.
Sure, the additional points on pureclass might have a negative effect on saves for spells, but it also means going pure as a caster becomes better, a trade-off.
You just have to find a sweet spot between the pureclass boost and the skill dumps so that it does not become BETTER than dipping.

We don't want to adjust the meta to favor one over the other, just to equalize for maximum options.

[Irongron]

It's not that there aren't some great points being made here, but can some of those posting here PLEASE moderate your language.

There's stuff here that's dismissive, or downright rude, all while discussing something purely hypothetical, and fails to recognise that there is a degree of subjectivity when considering the direction of development; the suggestion of more skill points has been made by many players, and there is absolutely no good reason to shoot people down in flames for even suggesting it.

If you want to know why there isn't a suggestion discussion forum, this is your answer.

[Sockss]

The entire point of giving bonuses to pure classes is that it balances out the disadvantages of multi classing, which introduces a new build, which increases diversity. Alleviating the negatives of pure classing would be bad, because of that.

Even at present, with a little gear dedication the main disadvantage of pure classing doesn't even exist.

Sorry if I come across as rude, if that was directed at me, it's not my intention.

I didn't think this was hypothetical, you mentioned advanced plans?

I'm just, obviously, a little rattled when it's quite demonstrably going to impact class balance in a very negative way, that doesn't seem, at least on the surface, to be well thought out.

I believe discourse and debate is important for development so I'd have to disagree, I'd say it was a shining example of why suggestions should be opened up.

[Irongron]

I didn't think this was hypothetical, you mentioned advanced plans?

No, only that it is being discussed, and further that any change to skill points would have to come after we have finished looking at the skills themselves. This is a big project, as HAKS allow us to also consider adding new skills. The 'advanced plans' were for the actual skill adjustments, not skill point total.

As an aside when it comes to allowing more universal class skills I'm against giving everyone Tumble, Discipline, UMD, Spellcraft, etc, but am considering Ride, Listen, Spot & Search.

What would probably interest me greatly is to see if anyone has any suggestions for entirely new skills, or ways to make the largely redundant skills more useful.

I also think we have to really try to not always look at this from the perspective of PVP, for me skills are mainly a way for players to get the most out of our actually playing and exploring Arelith. Search for instance, in opening up secrets, can be a fun skill to have, social skills reveal new dialog. Sure they're 'wasted' skill points in the opinion of many who consider only build strength, but when it comes to actually enjoying the world, they can, and should, be useful.

[Cortex]

I too would argue this is the shining example of why suggestion box needs to be opened up. It being locked with only Irongron having the right to approve and reject has given room for really good suggestions being binned and really bad or nonsensical ones being approved due to oversights.

Moreover and somewhat off topic, a lot of players seem to favor arelith 3.0 as a discussion platform. There's a ton of discussion about builds/ideas/whatever, whereas the forum proper seems much quieter in the past year, I'd argue that these kind of restrictions and the callouts to tone/behavior when discussion has been civil with elaborated criticism from both sides is one great contributing factor to that.

More on topic...

Non combat skills should completely be separated from combat skills if they are to be given application, elsewise combat will always take precedence. You may spend points to get some cookie RP points, but end of the day, it's very much likely the person who spent their points on means that allow them to actively influence the game has a better time.

Having played Divinity Original Sin 2 a lot lately, I can attest that it uses a simple and effecient system. You have ability points(similar to NWN/DnD), and then combat skills and social skills, points on each category are earned separatedly on leveling up. Dettaching vanilla skill points from non combat skills is something worth thinking over. Pics of DOS2 skills below for examples:

[Sockss]

Listen / Spot are already very core advantages for combat, giving those for free would create a big power creep and make a whole slew of stealthy to semi-stealthy characters redundant.

Well, I'd have to agree that if you were using skills to gate enjoyment of parts of the server that they should be given for free. Although, then it... seems like what would be the point in a gate that everyone had the key for?

I, for sure, think that non-combat skills should be useful, to at least similar degrees. People do a lot of things that aren't 'optimal' but are fun, for RP. For example you'll find lots of people taking bluff, despite bluff not giving any advantage in combat. Or craft wand / pot.

If these things were given for free, it means that characters lose considerable points of difference between them, you don't make any sacrifices to get something. So essentially all characters will be an optimal build with the bonuses tagged on and, these bonuses wouldn't really feel like bonuses, since everyone would get them.

You, at least I, would lose some of the sense of uniqueness of a PC.

Here are some suggestions below though.

Animal empathy - Higher level empathy creatures added in the module, so it becomes combat useful.
Appraise - Significantly increase its effect, flag any NPC merchant items purchased as stolen so you can't exploit.
Disable trap - Enable chance at more traps when recovering traps for higher trained levels (Not item bonuses/ability bonuses)
Open lock - Adventure XP on opening locked doors.
Persuade - Significantly increase the head reward gp bonus. Allow as an alternative to bypassing exiles, through bribing guards. Allow cheaper rentals/taxes.
Pick pocket - Improve the pick pocket PvE loot table, so it's not 'stolen treasure' half the time and rubbish the other half.
Ride - Remove the random chance to be thrown from a horse entirely. Have the ride skill scale speed and give the ride feats for free at 20/30 ranks.

Intimidate - Would need decoupling from pdk/barbarian to do anything with

Bluff/Concentration/Craft armor/Craft trap/Craft weapon/Discipline/Heal (skill)/Hide/Listen/Lore/Move silently/Parry/PerformSearch/Set trap /Spellcraft/Spot/Taunt/Tumble/Use magic device are all good as they are.

[Irongron]

It being locked with only Irongron having the right to approve and reject has given room for really good suggestions being binned and really bad or nonsensical ones being approved due to oversights.

This simply isn't true. All suggestions are discussed privately by the development staff.

- Suggestions made by players will be left there for approximately one week, to allow for responses from development staff, and associated discussions that may crop up elsewhere on the forums.

- At the end of this 'week' I, the Technical Lead (Currently Morderon) or the Art Director (Currently Anatida) will flag the suggestion as either 'Approved (Pending)' or 'Rejected' and where possible give some insight/feedback on the reasons.

[Irongron]

Here are some suggestions below though.

Animal empathy - Higher level empathy creatures added in the module, so it becomes combat useful.

I've done this a fair bit over the years, but it takes time. Do you think it might be good to use with the -track function so one does not have to depend on there being such a creature in that area? (Track and Empathy would allow a players a chance of finding a creature appropriate to their level)

Appraise - Significantly increase its effect, flag any NPC merchant items purchased as stolen so you can't exploit.

Another skill that is far more useful than it was, but flagging items as stolen when they aren't will lead to a lot of confusion I think. Its hard to balance item purchase/sale price. Could be done for raw gems at the scales though?

Disable trap - Enable chance at more traps when recovering traps for higher trained levels (Not item bonuses/ability bonuses)

Traps bother me a great deal, in part due to the fact that hostile creatures on Arelith rarely pursue the players. One has to lure in order to use them, and that is generally a huge waste of time when considering the rewards. I'm honestly not sure how to make more of them.

Open lock - Adventure XP on opening locked doors.

Players can use the same skill to lock doors, and in addition to that many doors on Arelith automatically lock after a given time (some straight away). Its a nice suggestion, but would therefore open up a great many exploits.

Persuade - Significantly increase the head reward gp bonus. Allow as an alternative to bypassing exiles, through bribing guards. Allow cheaper rentals/taxes.

This isn't a bad idea, and certainly useful at lower levels. I think as one gets higher though, gold is less important. Could it also be used to expand the range of available writs perhaps?

Pick pocket - Improve the pick pocket PvE loot table, so it's not 'stolen treasure' half the time and rubbish the other half.

I think this sorely needs fixing actually, and is worthy of a formal suggestion on the forums.

Ride - Remove the random chance to be thrown from a horse entirely. Have the ride skill scale speed and give the ride feats for free at 20/30 ranks.

I quite like riders getting thrown, but it should definitely happen fare more rarely, and only with certain horse breeds. I like the free feats idea, but before that can happen horses and riding needs a lot more attention.

Intimidate - Would need decoupling from pdk/barbarian to do anything with

There's actually quite a few conversations where this can come in useful, but it has been suggested it could play a part in NPC targetting - so that with a high intimidate foes will choose to attack other valid targets before turning on the most intimidating.

Great suggestions though, definitely food for thought.

[Cortex]

That's not what was implied back in viewtopic.php?f=15&t=22157 , perhaps discussion happens/happened, but only after they were approved or rejected, unless you stopped by each suggestion during that day to ask contributors that were available during all that time, but I believe they would've pointed out things about viewtopic.php?f=26&t=3209&p=26506 and others I wish not to dig up.

Whichever the case is, you have no more mechanic feedback team for many suggestions related to it, and while I am certain your development staff is able to give insight on many things relating to the game world, mechanics, etc, you essentially relegate substantial feedback to... the feedback forum, where threads have been locked by yourself due to discussing a suggestion made in the box.

[vaclavc]

I honestly think that OP’s suggestion is not a good one, for the reasons outlined by some posters in this thread.

Anyway, here is my suggestion for skill adjustments: do not adjust the skills, but the module, so that some less useful non-combat skills have more uses: significantly increase the instances where you can use persuade/bluff to get a secret piece of information or an access to otherwise inaccessible places, increase the utility of appraise, etc.

Consider expanding the info we get on examining of other PCs, as it used to be years ago. For example, I remember many instances players used the Examine to properly react to PCs with high intimidativeness or persuasiveness.

-V-