Fixtures, their placement, and the rules that protect them.

[Red Ropes]

viewtopic.php?f=26&t=24943

Though this was rejected I suppose I'll use this as an opportunity to open discussion about the idea in question as I feel I wasn't entirely understood.

Currently on the server there are indeed AREA WIDE fixture limits. I am not asking for those to be changed. What I was more suggesting and Mr. Irongron is the one to weigh in here - is that people have NO LIMIT to put down as many fixtures as you like.

Some people are very tasteful and responsible with their fixture placement. Some folks are not really thinking of the ramifications of placing 10s, 20s, 30s of fixtures all on their own and without thought to the idea; 'what if someone else wants to use this space'.

The current ruling on fixtures, destruction, and placement does not allow for you to remove enough fixtures to place your own and with the double edged sword the people you'd be doing this just as easily destroy what you have.

There are no rules on the limits of how many fixtures someone can place but there is a limit on how many someone can destroy.

So when I suggested a 3-5 per neutral area (ie, an area not controlled by a player government or someone's own house) - it was an idea to preserving a shared space and keeping things fair and balanced as there is no parity or balance.

---

So in as feedback; I really don't think the current system or rules really have a 'modern' take on fixtures and their use. You cannot destroy more than one permanently and people are largely allowed to place as many as they like.

This is, in my opinion, problematic for areas of nature and shared spaces like (hotels, communal living holds) as well as 'neutral, non-player territory' think Sibayad or the Radiant Heart.

With how it currently works I could place 60 fixtures down in an area of varying states or qualities and it'd be completely okay for me to do so. There are no rules that limit my placement but there are rules that limit how many fixtures I can destroy.

I am not sure that a mechanical system may have an easy or capable solution. But a declared, recorded ruling on fixtures (both their destruction and their placement) for shared spaces could be useful for modern Arelith. For every cool shrine there is out there - there are also unnamed fixture bombs that are kind of tacky or obstructive.

[Nitro]

I definitely think fixture clutter is at an all-time worst, and nearly impossible to deal with IC because there's a limit to permanent fixture destruction (trashbin), once per day while there's no limit on the amount of fixtures someone can throw down. So if someone is hellbent on setting up a really obnoxious campsite and you bash 4 fixtures, you can come back the next day to find out that not only has the four been repaired, but seven more has been placed down.

[Irongron]

I really do despise fixture clutter, especially after so often spending weeks on making an area.

They also make a TERRIBLE impression on new players, who have no way of telling if they were intentional parts of module design.

What we are going to do is this.

1. Fixture limits will be almost entirely removed in private/guild areas

2. Fixture limit will be lowered close to 0 in all wild areas.

3. Limits in both towns/wilds will vary depending upon size of the area.

3. Settlement officials within towns will have no restrictions on removing /destroying fixtures.

4. I will probably place a blanket ban on 'territory flags/markers' as will advertisements be expected to be placed on message boards where they naturally vanish over time.

I totally agree this is out of control.

Expect changes soon.

[Imperatrix]

Some areas that contain several quarters are absolutely impossible to customise because the other people in the area have already taken every fixture slot. Sometimes this is more of an issue with too many quarters in one area (I'm looking at you, Myon) but more often people are simply being selfish. This is especially awkward given that there is no IC way to address the issue - you can't leave a note on another PC's door saying "hey all the artistic nudes in your house are making it difficult for me to install my new cauldron," this wouldn't make any sense.

It would be really nice if, when there is more than one quarter in an area, there could be a mechanical limit to how many fixtures you can place in one quarter so that everyone can share the fixture limit equally. Areas with a lot of quarters should also have their overall fixture limit increased.

I do also agree that neutral areas should have some kind of limit to how many fixtures one person can place.

[The GrumpyCat]

The current ruling on fixtures, destruction, and placement does not allow for you to remove enough fixtures to place your own and with the double edged sword the people you'd be doing this just as easily destroy what you have.

Just as an aside, if you do notice someone placing obscene amount of very out of thematic fixtures in an area - especialy a shared wildneress area, contact us and we can take a look at dealing with it.

[Brandon Steel]

Thank god there’s going to be a crackdown on the ridiculous amount of shop advertisement fixtures. My lord has it gotten ridiculous.

[Durvayas]

Some areas that contain several quarters are absolutely impossible to customise because the other people in the area have already taken every fixture slot. Sometimes this is more of an issue with too many quarters in one area (I'm looking at you, Myon) but more often people are simply being selfish. This is especially awkward given that there is no IC way to address the issue - you can't leave a note on another PC's door saying "hey all the artistic nudes in your house are making it difficult for me to install my new cauldron," this wouldn't make any sense.

It would be really nice if, when there is more than one quarter in an area, there could be a mechanical limit to how many fixtures you can place in one quarter so that everyone can share the fixture limit equally. Areas with a lot of quarters should also have their overall fixture limit increased.

I do also agree that neutral areas should have some kind of limit to how many fixtures one person can place.

My experience with this is that the DM team has usually been happy to step in and contact the other quarter owner and demand they cull some of their stuff, and also happy to blow up their stuff at random if they refuse to comply.

If three quarters share an area, its completely out of line if one of those three is using 40/60 fixtures. Logically, and fairly, each should be alloted 20.

--

I do not agree with a ban on territory markers, as those can lead to RP via territory disputes. However...random massive encampments, and advertisements in the woods and on every single street corner and corner within buildings are a problem, I agree.

[Irongron]

I do not agree with a ban on territory markers, as those can lead to RP via territory disputes.

Sadly I find them far more often used as a lazy excuse for PvP, and wilfully ignore the reality of the setting - as they're often placed in monster territory. With better AI the monsters would be burning them.

[Ork]

2. Fixture limit will be lowered close to 0 in all wild areas.

Thank you!

[Red Ropes]

I do not agree with a ban on territory markers, as those can lead to RP via territory disputes.

Sadly I find them far more often used as a lazy excuse for PvP, and wilfully ignore the reality of the setting - as they're often placed in monster territory. With better AI the monsters would be burning them.

I'd probably say with the wilderness areas being made a little less in number you'd probably just have it kept to tasteful territory markers like the things about the Arelith forest for the elves.

Minimalism is a good sell for anything.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

There are a lot of fixtures in the wild I do like, like player graves and wilderness shrines. I'm hoping there will be some wilderness areas that can still have fixtures. One of the things I've always liked about Arelith are the artistic fixtures people place around the landscape. I've been trying to deal with the problem IC by gathering players to throw out bad fixtures, I was hoping that if we took responsibility to maintain things we'd still be able to have nice things.

Also, the exterior of the jungle hut, will that still be decoratable? One thing I like about the house is it provides a yard area to RP in.

[TimeAdept]

I really do despise fixture clutter, especially after so often spending weeks on making an area.

They also make a TERRIBLE impression on new players, who have no way of telling if they were intentional parts of module design.

What we are going to do is this.

1. Fixture limits will be almost entirely removed in private/guild areas

2. Fixture limit will be lowered close to 0 in all wild areas.

3. Limits in both towns/wilds will vary depending upon size of the area.

3. Settlement officials within towns will have no restrictions on removing /destroying fixtures.

4. I will probably place a blanket ban on 'territory flags/markers' as will advertisements be expected to be placed on message boards where they naturally vanish over time.

I totally agree this is out of control.

Expect changes soon.

but.... wild areas is where you'd expect to see the most fixtures. In places where PCs are setting up campsites, or "in the wild" encounters. This is IMO an area where we need to lean away from "monsters would just destroy all of these!" for the sake of creating a more engaging world for players to come across and interact with each other in.

Your stated design intent here would have completely destroyed the half orc camp, for example, since they would no longer have been able to function "in the wild". There's plenty of other large RP creating situations this would have removed as well, such as the wealth of PC fixtures in Nexus Falls and the Knight's Rest that catalogs a huge section of history on the server. Or the Camp Vigil outside fallen Benwick, commemorating those events. The Druid Grove, in Skal. There's tons more.

Territory flags and markers are so minor, and create RP over political forces clashing over territory expansions and contractions. Moreover, the ban doesn't make sense when it has to be enforced on an IC level. Does the world magically burn away every sign that highlights an area as a place of territory? Moreover, places in the module *are* claimed by settlements and factions, and the inability to display this to rival or other factions and settlements can be cause for nearly all out war for territory infringement. These conflicts are core to the setting, and removing the ability for PCs to both claim swathes of land, and openly display those claims, harms this avenue of RP.

They also make a TERRIBLE impression on new players, who have no way of telling if they were intentional parts of module design.

PC made PLCs are always selectable and highlightable, moveable and removeable. It's impossible to mistake them for official module design - these fixtures can't be interacted with, often don't highlight, and can't be removed or reclaimed. It's a completely different interactability set. Besides, isn't giving PCs the ability to affect and interact with the world the entire point of the PLC freedom? It's one of the biggest, most attractive things on Arelith IMHO, along with Speedys, the message boards, and the settlement system. PLCs are how history is made and recorded on the server. Please don't put these huge limitations on people, especially in the areas where they've had the most benefit. Being able to throw infinity PLCs behind a locked door guildhouse does't matter - up limits there if you want, but it doesn't massively improve the server, because almost no one is going to be interacting with them. But these things in the wild are things people will actually come across, see and interact with, see other people there, and form relationships and new RP with.

Please don't look at it as fixture clutter. You've created an area, but then it's been released to the world. You've created the setting, but your players are creating its history. It becomes a shared, collaborative story at that point - you're no longer the sole author with complete control over everything that happens in the area. (I mean... you are. I guess. you're the server owner...) Why do we need to clamp down so hard?

Finally, re: store advertisements... whatever, I guess, that's not even really germane to my argument. I think this one will be a lot of busywork for DMs that's better of not being foisted on them to do , personally.

[Twily]

As others have said, there are cases where fixture placement is warranted.

Gravestones being a large one, but also think of things like shrines to a diety, the Dragonsbreath Tavern, Orc Camp, and Bramble Watch.
These started out as fixture based encampments whether static or moving, and they led to enough roleplay that entire structures were built from the dev side. They also required a large number of fixtures to exist.

There also are cases where players do pull out some tents and campfires for whatever reason, and if a crash happened while these were down they might lose them depending on the limit and what else is there.



I will not disagree, I think fixtures in some areas is out of control.
But a near total ban on fixtures in wild areas I strongly believe would destroy just as much(if not more) good than bad. The ability a player has to shape the world and leave a mark on it is a large part of what makes Arelith so special, fixtures are a key piece in this.

I think the addition of a new rule regulating the use of fixtures would be a far better solution to this, and well worth the effort of adding an additional rule to the server despite it's long running desire to keep the rules simple.

---

EDIT: If you do want to significantly lower the limit anyways, I'd only request a minimum of 10 be considered. This is enough to allow players to put out some decorations with a gravestone, to set up a small shrine to a deity or similar, without enabling entire mini-towns to be created.

As an aside, The removal of border markers and advertisements I'm fine with, these two alone would definitely get rid of a lot of clutter.
Personally I don't mind border markers, but I easily see how they can detract from areas since they are often put right in the middle of walkways.

EDIT2: On thinking on it more, I also realized there's already quite a few unstated rules on fixtures.
-You're not supposed to use fixtures for something they're not supposed to be. (ie, creating walls out of altars/signs)
-You're supposed to be mindful of how many quarters are in an area and the fixture limits capacity (I know DMs can ask players to reduce their fixture usage if they're found to be hogging it).
-As Grumpycat said in this thread, DMs will talk to someone if they're placing obscene amounts of out of place fixtures in a shared area

Adding no border markers and advertisements to the list and putting it down in writing wouldn't be a bad idea even if the limit is reduced in the manner described by Irongron.

[Durvayas]

I will not disagree, I think fixtures in some areas is out of control.
But a near total ban on fixtures in wild areas I strongly believe would destroy just as much(if not more) good than bad. The ability a player has to shape the world and leave a mark on it is a large part of what makes Arelith so special, fixtures are a key piece in this.

I think the addition of a new rule regulating the use of fixtures would be a far better solution to this, and well worth the effort of adding an additional rule to the server despite it's long running desire to keep the rules simple.

Basically this.

[DangerDolphin]

A partial solution would be to make them decay after a certain time like an RL month, unless they are refreshed by the owner.

That covers border markers (must be an active faction) and advertisements (must be an active merchant)

Gravestones and statues are more tricky though. Maybe have them permanent if 40 people or more pay their respects at the monument.

[Nitro]

I agree with IG on everything, especially border markers. It's dumb to try to "claim" an area that contains hostile forces you are unable to eradicate. You're not owning that area because it's occupied 24/7 by something hostile to you and everyone you associate with, entities that could and would remove your claim to the area via uprooting your dinky flag and using it for kindling.

[Red Ropes]

I don't think, post change, that much will change beyond the ability to spam fixtures.

The tasteful bordermarkers and territory flags that exist will likely remain.

[Subutai]

I'm with the others in strongly disagreeing on close to 0 fixtures in wilderness areas, for the same reasons. I've advocated before for making campsite fixtures more easily carryable and deployable because I believe that having campsites IG is an awesome RP addition, and very much in line with the flavor of Dungeons & Dragons, and allowing for fixtures in wild areas goes hand-in-hand with that. There are a lot of wilderness areas that are absolutely ripe for setting up short or long term encampments, small fortifications, etc., and all that would be completely lost if only a tiny handful of fixturescould be placed in wilderness areas.

Additionally, the graves, altars, and in some places druidic menhirs add a ton of flavor to the server. The menhirs up in the Skull Crags consistently make me want to roll up a druid, and handled right, can add a fantastic feeling of ancient, mystical wilderness.

I think what would really help in wilderness areas more than restricting the number of fixtures, would me some hard rules regarding what kinds of fixturesare allowed where. Place a single shop advertisement along the main road to Cordor somewhere? Maybe that's fine. Put them up somewhere off in the middle of the forest? Not fine. Then, the DMs can deal with it with IC reasons. If some skull poles are set up in a hidden corner of the forest, that could be fun. But if they're stuck around Myon, the Myon guards would strip them down. Let us know what's allowed and what's not allowed, and we can report as needed.

When it comes to people hogging fixtures in shared quarters, I think there are a few issues tied to it that could help to crack down on it. First, there are a ton of areas that have a huge number of quarters all stuck in one area. Sibayad, Greyport, Myon, and a good number of others all have full-sized, or even very large-sized, quarters that are shared with an area that has 3, 4, or 5 other quarters. That means 10-15 fixtures per person. That's not a lot, by any means. If we could cut down on the number of shared quarter areas, increase the fixture count in those areas, or split them into groups of 2 quarters max, I think it would really help allowing more people to place fixtures in their quarters.

Tied directly to that, quarters tend to be extremely empty without fixtures. Many of the multi-room quarters have a bed, a bench or two, an oven, and pretty much nothing else, despite being very large quarters. Some Greyport houses have a living room, study, library, two hall areas, and two bedrooms, yet they come with I think one chair, two beds, and nothing else. When a player moves in, they're essentially expected to furnish the entire place themselves, but if they're restricted to 10-15 fixtures, they still end up with an almost completely vacant home that looks like no one lives there.

[thimblegiant]

I'm going to toss my hat in the ring on this discussion as well, but more to highlight the lack of common sense I'm seeing in populated areas - specifically Cordor. We now have a forge, along with a complete suite of workstations, set up inside the Cordor bank. Having a couple of shops are borderline acceptable, but I can't fathom the RP reason this would be acceptable to a bank.

The other one that strikes me odd is the advertising for the shop in the new Temple of Ilmater. I can see the purpose of a shop in the temple as it would make sense to sell (or give) away thematic items within, why would the Ilmatari allow this obnoxious advertising around or in the temple proper? I haven't gone into the adjoining infirmary/orphanage lately, but I wouldn't be surprised to find one there as well. I have been tempted to trash the signage myself, but my current character really has no reason to do so - he could care less.

In the wild, I haven't noticed too much lately, and what I have seems to disappear soon enough (but probably thanks to other characters junking the signs).

*Edited for clarity

[Xerah]

The temple is created by a player. It could easily be the temple of Umberlee tomorrow.

[thimblegiant]

The temple was player made a few months back - but it went under construction and certainly looks like it's part of the module now. Is it not?

Doesn't matter anyway - IMO the "Cheap Eats!" advertising is out of character for the purpose of a temple. It's enough to make Ilmater cry, I'm sure.

[Diilicious]

Please don't look at it as fixture clutter. You've created an area, but then it's been released to the world. You've created the setting, but your players are creating its history. It becomes a shared, collaborative story at that point - you're no longer the sole author with complete control over everything that happens in the area. (I mean... you are. I guess. you're the server owner...) Why do we need to clamp down so hard?

[Mr_Rieper]

I really do despise fixture clutter, especially after so often spending weeks on making an area.

They also make a TERRIBLE impression on new players, who have no way of telling if they were intentional parts of module design.

What we are going to do is this.

1. Fixture limits will be almost entirely removed in private/guild areas

2. Fixture limit will be lowered close to 0 in all wild areas.

3. Limits in both towns/wilds will vary depending upon size of the area.

3. Settlement officials within towns will have no restrictions on removing /destroying fixtures.

4. I will probably place a blanket ban on 'territory flags/markers' as will advertisements be expected to be placed on message boards where they naturally vanish over time.

I totally agree this is out of control.

Expect changes soon.

Minor corrections. Small adjustments. Changes that massive will almost certainly cause more problems than it will solve, and I've made a thread on this exact issue of clutter before. I agree with the ability of settlement officials being able to control what fixtures are within their territory, though.

As for the territory markers that factions and settlements put up in "hostile territory", appealing to the realism aspect - that the monsters would destroy the banners - is a bit of a moot point. The monsters literally respawn in infinite numbers. They are unable to be eradicated, even when they are slaughtered in their hundreds on a daily basis. No actual settlement would tolerate the presence of dozens of monster nests around it. The monsters also have no real agency in the module, they exist to be killed and looted. Expecting players to acknowledge their presence over RL years of the monsters being treated like loot piñatas on a daily basis and being included in the odd DM quest is a bit silly.

Of course people are going to try to claim and secure territory to the best of their ability. Of course they are going to try to define borders and defend them. It's natural for the groups with agency on the server to try to exert and expand their influence. When they come into conflict, the best kinds of RP happen, if PvP rules are respected. It might be interesting if the monsters tried to claim territory of their own, but it'd be like spitting into the wind in all honesty. They'd almost immediately be put in their place by other players.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

I really do despise fixture clutter, especially after so often spending weeks on making an area.

They also make a TERRIBLE impression on new players, who have no way of telling if they were intentional parts of module design.

What we are going to do is this.

1. Fixture limits will be almost entirely removed in private/guild areas

2. Fixture limit will be lowered close to 0 in all wild areas.

3. Limits in both towns/wilds will vary depending upon size of the area.

3. Settlement officials within towns will have no restrictions on removing /destroying fixtures.

4. I will probably place a blanket ban on 'territory flags/markers' as will advertisements be expected to be placed on message boards where they naturally vanish over time.

I totally agree this is out of control.

Expect changes soon.

Yeah man, you pretty much nailed it. One thing I would add as a way to give back is to be slightly more open then is current to player driven changes to the mod, and maybe spending a day making versions of each major settlement (and maybe a few minor ones too) post battle so if someone forms a raid worthy of using one there is a lingering effect they can be proud of. It will also give the sims players something to dote over when the fighting's done.

[Anime Sword Fighter]

2. Fixture limit will be lowered close to 0 in all wild areas.

There was a suggestion in another thread on expanding what can be used as altars -- being able to consecrate more fixtures to pray at them rather than solely on the big slabs of rock that we are limited to currently. I think that if something like that were implemented to make those wayside shrines, that could also serve as a protection mechanic on fixtures otherwise removed by the limit. Would take a lot of work, I imagine, though. Abuse (consecrating something without necessarily using it as a Pray fixture RP) could be reported and looked at by DMs.