Double Standards due to IG Race

[Azarain]

There appears to be a double, standards when dealing with races on the game. This post is not about every Goblin, Gnoll, Koblod, and Ogre will be in the Drow city. It is about surface races.

There are a great number of human and elves within the Underdark city. This would not be an issue if they were wearing slave collars, but they are equal citizens able to move around freely. They have a voice and seem to have the same equal rights as everyone else.

Why is the Legion of Doom allowing in John Constentine? Sure John has some nifty magical tricks, is a selfish jerk, and pretty much gets a lot of his friends killed. He is still part of the good guy world. Now seeing that the only connecting factor the legion has is they are all being hunted down by everyone else on the surface (Why else is Gorilla Grod and the Riddler sharing a snow cone with Bizzaro?) it makes it more out of place they are allowed more access to set up shop elsewhere.

There is a place where they can head to however. The Shadow Plane does welcome everyone. There is even a sign which says keep the fighting outside. To me this would keep the Underdark and surface conflict up and running.

Edit: Added the Legion of Doom Picture!

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

I been saying for a while now that surface races should require to spend a reward to start as a non slave in Underdark.

[Skarain]

Humans are quite adapt at evil, and outcasts and criminals and wicked things such as slavers and necromancers are a thing that exists.

In servers past, when Outcasta were originally introduced, the existing dark races did not take it quite well and DMs had to stop people from brutally murdering all humans that those darker wanted to drive out.

So human outcasts are not going to be going anywhere, by current server design.

Also Andunor is intended as a Trade City, to promote a more race-varied underdark setting than a drow-dominated one.

All this was done to revitalize Underdark as a thing in server past. There was a point when the peak of UD players online was less than ten. Someone else may be able to better verify this. I only came to the server when Underdark was well and alive again.

In terms of elves, i know only two who do not bear collars, so they are not -that- numberous. Likewise, there are only a couple other surface race people roaming about.

All those I know have in one way or another earned their place in the dark and may be regarded with hostility in the surface as result.

---

Now, i get your point. Having more monster races played in the dark would be nice, but they would require some more boons to encourage players creating ones.

Human just happens to be most flexible when it comes to mechanical choise, with base score in everything, more skill points and a free feat, on top of full gifts, and thus a powerful race. In addition, they are easiest to play as variety of concepts due to human diversity. Playing humans is also easy, because we have a lot real life experience being one.

Instead of penalizing people from playing Humans in the dark, while certainly a method to lock it behind a reward, what of making those races of dark slightly stronger and watch how balance might shift?

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

I think a boon balancing system wouldnt be a bad idea. Although its kind of already in place, its hard to compete with humans without making something OP.

When i mentioned rewards, i was thinking just a minor reward which only takes a level 16 to retire. You could easily explore and get to know UD as a slave or goblin/kobold and if you were not into said RP, can retire level 16 character and have your human who starts as an outcast. Note slaves can still earn freedom and surfacers can still become outcasts. I just find it silly that a hob goblin requires a minor reward, but surfacer outcast does bot.

[Azarain]

With all due respect,

I can think of a good eight or nine humans without collars. At times they out number the under dark races. While by design Andunor is the trade city for the monster races. They have five other cities on the surface they can live in. Maybe outlaws should become pirates and move to Sencliff. They do not allow monsters there, do allow slaves, and have a nice trade market there.

Is there any machinal reasons for humans not to be in the surfacer not good guy spot? As for Outcasts I do see them having some caves in the Sharp which seems to indicate by server design they shouldn’t be one of the main powers in the Underdark, which makes sense humans have five settlements on the surface to be kicked out of and monsters have one.

[Nitro]

While by design Andunor is the trade city for the monster races.

Fixed that for you. Andunor was never made to be "monster race only surfacers go away" but a sprawling metropolis trade city of all races and cultures. You can even see affluent human NPC's walking around in the Devil's Table.

Is there any machinal reasons for humans not to be in the surfacer not good guy spot?

Is there any reasons they shouldn't beyond "I don't like them down there"? Humans and half orcs bring diversity and increased player numbers to the underdark. Before Andunor when it really was "monsters only" it was a barren low-activity wasteland, it was unusual to see 10-20 people online simultaneously.

Also, sidenote. Piracy RP on Arelith has been shoehorned into a very different niche than outcast RP due to the mechanics of Sencliff and the pirate tags. To push every human bad guy to piracy as the only option would be extremely boring and cut down on character diversity significantly.

EDIT: Another thing to consider is that Andunor is the largest settlement on the server by a significant margin. Baked into the city there's three separate districts with their own government forms, and the city itself encompasses so many areas that I wouldn't be surprised if it is larger than all other settlements on the server combined. It has the space for both monster and outcast population and then some to spare, to the point where it'd feel empty and abandoned without the additional population.

[Peppermint]

I'm also sick of seeing surfacers in the underdark.

If we could remove all the gnolls, goblins, and ogres from Andunor, that'd be great. Thanks.

[Aethan]

Maybe the best way to approach this is to keep it IC? Seriously, there is a lot of RP to be had around this.

It's the whole reason for the Inquisition faction, in fact.

[The GrumpyCat]

A few months ago I might have seen some validity in this, but with the outcast changes I think this is less so.

As a rule of thumb, with a few exceptions, to play a 'outcast' (which is what I presume people mean when they say 'surfacer' in the Underdark,) involves being labeled as a terrible person on the surface and being unable to access a good amount of surface merchants and perks.

Andunor is no more a 'monster only' settlment than Cordor is a 'human only' settlment.

Further more I find this very wierd mind set of 'Be a slave or don't be here' kinda odd. Especialy when curiously tied in with a common complaint about slave collars allowing anyone to summon said slave.

If we implemented both these decisions, then I simply forsee someone making a monster character, contacting their surface buddies to roll up some slaves, giving them the collar, then just never logging in. Meaning the 'slaves' are effectivly as free (in fact more free) than outcasts and can do as they will.

Ultimatly as others have said, since the implementation of Outcasts the Underdark has been more active, fun and interesting than ever. There's been some really awsome cross roleplay between the surface and the underdark, there's been more raids, more drama, more story. It's excellent.

[A Mystery Clock]

Throwing in my two cents, since I saw (spearheaded? I am not even sure if Asb'el had a good hand in this or if this is just a coincidence) the transformation of Andunor from "no uncollared humans" to what it is now. So let me tell you a story...

More or less 3 years ago, Andunor was an almost exclusively drow city. With this I mean that drow were firmly in charge, and uncollared humans doing anything more than occasionally visiting was unheard of. There already was an elven slave back then (Fadra) and a couple enslaved humans, but that was it.

No non-slaves outcasts. Uncollared humans were, usually, immediately turned into slaves. I remember seeing Malthazar or whatever his name is walking around in the Devil's Table (NPC) and thinking it was a cool idea and a good challenge to try and play an uncollared, true outcast human in a city that back then closely resembled Menzoberranzan.

Back then, the numbers were -much lower- than they are now. You didn't have vendors selling essences and a lot of the very useful goods you need to level up, so few people rolled drow, and many people came down just to level. Old Udos, that I know (might be wrong!) was also axed because it was a classic Menzoberranzan style city, and kind of empty as a result.

I served as a sort of NPC merchant for about a year, supplying lenses/essences/kits/various crafting thingymagigs to help out the playerbase, one thing led to another, it was a lot of great fun, and I am really glad to see more outcasts muscling their way into Andunor politics.

With the notable exception of elves, which I agree should have a really hard time convincing drow that they are useful (but, for instance, I love seeing Elrithrulia around and think she's doing a great job as a race traitor), remember that Andunor is fashioned more on Skullport than Menzoberranzan.

The Devil's table is literally ruled by an infernalist drow house. LE, and afaik not Lolthites. There's human NPCs roaming about. It is not designed to be a classic drow city, but a cosmopolitan UNDERDARK city. As long as they are evil (or outcasts) they fit. The city itself is already half-ruled by an oddity that would never fly anywhere around classic drow cities. If Vhaeraunites took over, or human Sharrans did, it would still be thematically appropriate.

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Skullport

This said...

The Inquisition is a good thing, and an appropriate IG response. I'd personally just "not" enjoy to see a sea of uncollared elves about, but they are as kill on sight for drow as drow are on the surface. Humans are fine.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

A few months ago I might have seen some validity in this, but with the outcast changes I think this is less so.

As a rule of thumb, with a few exceptions, to play a 'outcast' (which is what I presume people mean when they say 'surfacer' in the Underdark,) involves being labeled as a terrible person on the surface and being unable to access a good amount of surface merchants and perks.

Andunor is no more a 'monster only' settlment than Cordor is a 'human only' settlment.

Further more I find this very wierd mind set of 'Be a slave or don't be here' kinda odd. Especialy when curiously tied in with a common complaint about slave collars allowing anyone to summon said slave.

If we implemented both these decisions, then I simply forsee someone making a monster character, contacting their surface buddies to roll up some slaves, giving them the collar, then just never logging in. Meaning the 'slaves' are effectivly as free (in fact more free) than outcasts and can do as they will.

Ultimatly as others have said, since the implementation of Outcasts the Underdark has been more active, fun and interesting than ever. There's been some really awsome cross roleplay between the surface and the underdark, there's been more raids, more drama, more story. It's excellent.

I must confess, I am not super familiar with the newer outcast mechanics. That would probably change opinions of mine

Again though, i dont mind so much even the number of outcasts, but rather how easy it is to roll up. It make no sense that ogres is major, hobgoblin a minor, etc but starting as an outcast human has no caveat to it. If a bunch of players just rolles their lvl 16 goblins to make outcast humans, im fine with the freedom to so that, at least the went out of their way for said character concept rather just being a "horde side human" wanting to play in UD.

[LichBait]

The humans are fine in my opinion. It's the large number of surface elves that have been filtering in that I feel kind of harms the dynamic. Humans can fit just about anyplace. Surface elves are in direct conflict with drow, and I would think orogs/half-orcs also. I certainly have more thoughts on why the current UD dynamic has been rubbing me the wrong way lately, but I don't want to delve into the realm of offending others who are enjoying their RP.

[Azarain]

I am not familiar with the Outcast mechanic either. is there something on it which prevents them from purchasing from NPCs on the surface? Being ran out of cities? In short being treated like a monster race? If so then I have no complaints at all. If it doesn't then I keep my complaint because it then would remain a double standard.


Edit: I should add I have seen a lot of amazing RP there. I love the vibe the red mages have brought, it has been fun seeing a few people move from who is he to, welcoming. For the in game response yes I would likely support the inquisition. Papers for all non monsters.

[ltlukoziuz]

Yes, Outcasts need to beat bluff DC 40 to be able to access NPC shops and a few other things, and they're actively ostracised in most settlements (especially if they are already known ICly) (they show up in description, just like RH Ring or Sencliff Tattoos)

[Brandon Steel]

More or less 3 years ago, Andunor was an almost exclusively drow city. With this I mean that drow were firmly in charge, and uncollared humans doing anything more than occasionally visiting was unheard of. There already was an elven slave back then (Fadra) and a couple enslaved humans, but that was it.

Were we in the same Underdark? 3 years ago I remember there being so many humans to the point I stopped playing in the UD entirely. Honestly, the Outcast changes helped a lot for awhile but I haven’t played UD for the last few months so I dunno how it is currently.

[Archnon]

Honestly, Andunor is just a mess of a town regarding race RP given the lore. I see a ton of uncollared, non outcast humans roaming about. In fact, that is the bulk of the players I see. Slaves are rarely seen now, in my experience, though they are almost always RP'ed well. I think this is likely because access to the city is more fluid now and you don't need to start as a slave or outcast to play UD. Further, the fact that all of these UD races are living together seems strange. Orcs, ogres, drow, gnolls, and goblins aren't all naturally allies, and if someone can explain to me why, given all the Faerun lore there is, that Svirfneblin are building ships for these races that are essentially their sworn enemies. This especially doesn't fit and I will never understand it.

That being said, I agree with a lot of the people on this post who have stated clearly, that this all should be handled in character. Join the inquisition (no one will suspect it ). Start a human faction that demands equal rights. Start a new slave operation (honestly someone going around doing slaver RP could be interesting for Andunor). The reality is Arelith writes its own lore as it goes, It is not totally beholden to paper and pencil lore and this writing needs to be done by characters and not by artificial mechanics.

[n00bdragon]

I've stated before how jarringly weird I find it that Andunor is a huge racial hugbox where everyone is judged by the content of their character etc. I don't have any special complaints about anyone particular in the city. They're all sufficiently twirling their mustaches. But when you step back and look at the city as a whole its very hard to understand how the UD is the "evil" city on the server full of the "bad" guys. Sure, they all dress in black and you can see undead and fiends being ordered about the streets but there's no serious religious or ethnic persecution (even elves can earn their place). Trade is vibrant and largely peaceful. People tend to be polite and considerate of others and violence in the streets is rare compared to similarly populated areas on the surface.

Let me reiterate again, these are the supposed """bad guys""".

There's a lot of reasons for things being like this and I understand what they are and why they are, but it's still weird and I'm inclined to think there must be a better way to do this though I don't know what it is.

[Durvayas]

All this was done to revitalize Underdark as a thing in server past. There was a point when the peak of UD players online was less than ten. Someone else may be able to better verify this. I only came to the server when Underdark was well and alive again.

Is there any reasons they shouldn't beyond "I don't like them down there"? Humans and half orcs bring diversity and increased player numbers to the underdark. Before Andunor when it really was "monsters only" it was a barren low-activity wasteland, it was unusual to see 10-20 people online simultaneously.

Plenty of reasons, but I'll address the second before the first.

This is the point where I point out that the underdark of yore was dead because of absolutely abysmal community management, blatant double standards in both rules enforcement and DM attention, and a total lack of faith in the server administration and DM team of the time. The death of the old UD had nothing to do with monster races, it had everything to do with underdark players seeking greener pastures, because post-cataclysm UD and pit town was a dumpster fire on an IC and OOC level.
The UD needed a hard reset, and its section of the community needed faith that its players were no longer effectively second-class. The debacle that was the flayer war plotline needed to end. There was never a problem with race selection in the old UD. There was a problem with the module, the narrative forced on the community with basically zero input nor influence from the players of the time, and the staffing of the server itself, and people gave feedback with their feet, and left in droves.

I can guarantee if Andunor had been released but outcasts weren't a thing, you'd still see player counts more or less the way they are now. Only difference is that they'd all be monsters.

The main reason that the outcast population exploded in Andunor is because of a terrible double whammy of...

Humans and half orcs being allowed in the underdark at the same time as monster races getting the shaft when ECL was tied to gift selection, making humans THE most optimal choice for playing in the underdark, and the most mechanically powerful race down there.

People always point to skullport as Andunor's inspiration, but skullport was always initially a human city first, everything else later. Whereas Andunor was a city built by the monsters for the monsters, and humans came in after.

I've always been of the opinion outcasts should be normal rewards.
To both curb their numbers for thematic consistency, and to ensure quality, and I think it would certainly assure quality, for two reasons.
1) it would prevent new players with no concept of the Arelith setting and what Andunor is from creating humans and horcs, which would go a long way to reducing the 'hugboxiness' of the underdark.

2. Making an outcast no longer the absolute most optimal choice for powergrinding rollbaits. You would no longer see throwaway outcasts because they'd have to blow a reward on them, rather than making -4ECL GoH-locks.

[Restless Dragon]

My opinion as a player is that Andunor is not a place that shows how ALL of any particular race are, more accurate would be to see it as a somewhat "neutral ground" that has some form of agreement among all who enter to sort of get on while they stay there. So the fact that drow and elves as a whole are enemies is somewhat ignored for the purpose of trade, be it goods or indeed slaves. So its not the race as a whole that is shown within this place but more so the ones there are within Andunor, at least to a point, are tolerant of the others in favour of easy and good trade. This by no means forces you to like this arrangement IC and could in fact lead to a lot of fun RP with tempers on this matter being dealt with with schemes and plots to get rid of any undesirables

[JubJub]

Why should a goblin look at a human worse then say a drow? Who are know to enslave goblins and use them as suicide troops to weaken the enemy. Each race in the UD can have their own reason for why they see surfacers as being useful. Information, coin, bringing hard to find goods, maybe they bring slaves etc.. The city itself is a trade city, Most UD races will tolerate most races as log as they see an advantage in it for themselves.

[sarithia]

I've seen this argument a lot about the elves being down there which I don't particularly agree with. I've only known three to be down there (granted, I play a GMT time so my experiences differ of course) and the players behind them have fought tooth and nail for the RP to continue and their characters are brilliant. Sometimes it isn't as simple as 'there are a lot of surfacer types in the UD' but so much as 'there are a lot of surfacer types in the UD that have had the RP and the story backing that explains and adds to the environment'. The drow and other monster races are still amazingly terrifying, and I'm glad to still see this even after a few years absence.

[Anomandaris]

I've seen this argument a lot about the elves being down there which I don't particularly agree with. I've only known three to be down there (granted, I play a GMT time so my experiences differ of course) and the players behind them have fought tooth and nail for the RP to continue and their characters are brilliant. Sometimes it isn't as simple as 'there are a lot of surfacer types in the UD' but so much as 'there are a lot of surfacer types in the UD that have had the RP and the story backing that explains and adds to the environment'. The drow and other monster races are still amazingly terrifying, and I'm glad to still see this even after a few years absence.

Well said. I'm playing an elf down there and it is definitely a challenge (as it should be). One thing I'll note, evil and racist are not the same thing. Neither is good and "enlightened" or "non-hypocritical." Of course there is race specific lore but our characters are often unique members of their races, that's the fun part about having the freedom to RP your own character.

I find it both amusing and awesome that the UD, while having a bunch of ruthless, twisted folk, is more pragmatic and values the substance of the character more than the race (even if it may be only, how are they useful to my designs). It creates a kind of anit-hero esque dynamic, where you can respect and the "principled bad guys." I don't see it as a warm-fuzzy, welcome all community, but rather one possessed of a ruthless pragmatism that respects power, utility and resourcefulness over race. I am not sure if this was by design, but it certainly makes sense to me as a player and character. Lastly, the influx of surface races has seemed to make some things more difficult for surface races, as concerns of spies become more pronounced, as is frustration with the abundance of surface races expressed by some characters. Everything is a double edged sword!

Either way I think it all needs to be sorted IC. If someone wants to make the political etc moves to change this, more power to you! I certainly hope that there are at least a handful of folks down there that NEVER accept my character, despite my reputation, acceptance by others or service to Andunor, this is how it should be.

[Blood on my Lips]

I see a ton of uncollared, non outcast humans roaming about. In fact, that is the bulk of the players I see.

How do you know if they are Outcasts or surface characters unless you actually observe them using the Hub portal? There's no other way to tell.

Slaves are rarely seen now, in my experience, though they are almost always RP'ed well.

There was a huge explosion of slaves in the past few weeks. I was amazed at how many of them appeared, nearly overnight.
It has NOT been my experience that slaves are RP'd well, however, I do have to say that a lot of these new slaves are doing a great job with the slave RP. In the past, slaves acted like free people, and there are still some with that attitude currently.

I will say that the number of free elves, or elves with slave collars that are permitted to run around acting like free people is getting out of hand.

As to the question about Outcasts and the surface:
Outcasts cannot talk with the city registrars to see who is part of the government structure.
Outcasts cannot make purchases from NPCs, the city warehouses or player shops without 40 Bluff.
Outcasts can't own housing or shops in settlements.
Outcasts can't use Laurik's boats to move from one city to another.
Outcasts aren't permitted in the Arcane Tower.
And currently, most settlements are chasing Outcasts out on sight.

[Subutai]

In the past, slaves acted like free people, and there are still some with that attitude currently.

In my experience, this kind of behavior is pretty expected given the Arelith slave culture. Potential owners will practically line up sometimes to interview with slaves, explaining why the slave should chose them to be their master, and then they're given often times more or less free reign to do as they wish as long as it's not contravening their master's own wishes.

I heard it explained by a drow once, "Most slaves down here end up free eventually. If I treat you horribly, you'll be my enemy when you go free. If I treat you well, you'll be my ally." It's a very pragmatic perspective, and I think one that many, if not most, of the slave owners in the UD take. Plus, since slaves are fully allowed, even expected, to level to 30 and become powerful, there's no real difference in combat prowess.

If slaves were for life down there, and they were kept disarmed and weak, maybe we'd see more slaves getting whipped, beaten, and treated awfully, but that's not really how the UD works, for the most part. PC slaves aren't kept weak and powerless. They're more like Mameluks than house slaves.

The same is true of monster races and such, too. Goblins, kobolds, gnolls, etc., all roam Andunor more or less as equals, when in many cases, even if they're equal citizens, it might otherwise make sense for drow especially to treat them like significant inferiors. But again, why make unnecessary enemies?

[Dr. B]

I've seen a lot of surface elves down there. This used to not be a thing. I confess that I find it a bit jarring, but I also think it's something that should be handled IC, and part of what's jarring about it is how non-reactive most of the players of elf-hating races seem to be to it. If you play a drow and don't like the idea of elves being down there, persecute them, and encourage others to do so. Maybe use it as an election platform.