Knockdown in PvE

[Sofawiel]

I know it is already in the suggestion thread to make knockdown work the "old" way for pve, but I really want to reiterate what an annoying quality of life change this is, especially vs mons with casters. Especially if you are not high con (to just eat the spells) willing to burn more feats (to counter missile spam) or high str (to carry the extra consumables to fill the gap now)

I don't mind prepping more/differently for PvP, but the extra expense for dungeon crawling (consumables primarily) for pve is obnoxious when coupled with the apparent need to grind for consumables to PvP. For those with limited time to play the cycle is starting to feel silly. I invested in a feat to exist in the world, much like expertise feat investment. Throwing pve out of balance for large archetypes in an attempt to allow more archetypes in PvP is not the right way to go

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Agreed.

[DNorth]

I have to say, Knockdown's hardly worth the investment, now.

It's, like,"ok, I can knockdown one mob, for a round, but then he's gonna get up and stay up, for three more rounds, and I won't be able to do anything to that mob, or I can lower mob's AB so that he's unable to land a hit on me and re-apply the debuff two rounds later..."

I think lowering AB, with 2 rounds cooldown is, overall, a better choice for both pvp and pve.

At least, if taking Improved Knockdown would lower the cool down down to 12 seconds, it would've been worth taking the plunge, but as it stands, I'd rather debuff a heavy hitter every 12 seconds, than bet my life on duration of one round to take down a caster, because I know that if I must knockdown the caster in order to survive-there's just no way am I going to outlive such caster for 18 seconds, until the next Knockdown becomes available.

[Naiinara]

What happens if you have two characters with the knockdown feat attacking the same target. Is one player's feat almost essentially null?

[DNorth]

It is. Furthermore, I don't believe it's been fixed yet, the knocked down character gets a whopping 18 seconds immunity to ANY knockdown.

Be that Iron Horn, Grease, or Hellball.

Editted: I could be wrong on that one, though, since it's been a while I got to test it.

But regardless of other knockdown sources, Target is immune to a knockdown from another player, too. As I've experienced while doing writs with other players.

[LIonGraphiK]

I actually think that the knockdown nerf was unnecessary... Though, this is just my personal opinion. It was pretty easy to counter and with the right gear setup, you could easily reach 70+ discipline with feats/skills. In PvE, it was a WM's bread and butter for survival with not always a guaranteed chance of hitting anyway.

Whilst I fundamentally disagree with the knockdown immunity, one must think I have played pre-dominantly melee classes. I've only ever played casters since that's just my personal taste. I have never had any issues with knockdown and when it has happened to me, it's down to my own stupid error and I believe it is most definitely a fair game. If I have the ability to bring up a time stop, a melee class needs to have a viable counter for it. If I'm too stupid enough to not get out of melee, I deserve to be knocked down.

I would propose we change the rounds from three at the very least, I believe this to be too much and crippling for melee builds which are already suffering due to the recent UMD/Lore changes. I suppose that these updates are also never intended to be set in stone and actually, it's better to over nerf as people will likely address the concerns early on and it is easier make those necessary changes. In any case, I think you guys (the developers) are doing a sterling job and it's not easy having to face criticism but it has to be said that it is really nice to see that you all get on with it and listen to the community, kudos. <3

[Scylon]

I don't mind a little nerf for PvP, But PvE it's not required.

[garrbear758]

I think 3 rounds for knockdown and 2 rounds for improved knockdown would be good for pvp and pve. 3 rounds just makes two feats not worth the investment

[monkeywithstick]

Given as the immunity is granted to the target upon being KD'd not sure how practical the duration change would be as described.
If someone gets KD'd by someone without improved KD (like a mage casting hellball) then the person with IKD can't affect them for 18s regardless of their additional feat.

[DNorth]

Given as the immunity is granted to the target upon being KD'd not sure how practical the duration change would be as described.
If someone gets KD'd by someone without improved KD (like a mage casting hellball) then the person with IKD can't affect them for 18s regardless of their additional feat.

As far as I'm aware, only being affected by Knockdown feat grants knockdown immunity, no other sources.

So if you're knocked down by Hell all or Grease first, you should still be affected by Knockdown.

Then again, I never thought to test it, only knockdown feat stacking.

[monkeywithstick]

As far as I'm aware, only being affected by Knockdown feat grants knockdown immunity, no other sources.

So if you're knocked down by Hell all or Grease first, you should still be affected by Knockdown.

Then again, I never thought to test it, only knockdown feat stacking.

It was tested. It may have since been updated, I have not checked recently..

[Aila]

I think the change is great. I love how the server is moving away from "every build needs this".

[RedGiant]

Ditto. This is one of the most significant positive balance changes to the server. When the entire playerbase has to build around countering one feat, and you literally cannot think of playing a caster without 3 lvls of bard, then we have a true balance issue.

[Shaeris]

I feel as though certain people didn't read the thread title or OP at all. What's being talked about is the usefulness (or reduction of such) of knowdown in PvE scenarios.

At any rate, I agree in that the CD should be removed against monsters or at the very least reduced. There exist plenty of mobs, both while leveling and at max level content that won't ever be affected by it anyhow. I know the trivialization of dungeons has been a point of concern as of late, but there are far greater offenders in this regard than KD. Mundanes have received enough of a beating as is.

[Diegovog]

As most things in nwn, knockdown can be clunky. Sometimes you knock an enemy down and it immediately stands up, even if it's the first attack of the flurry.

[Terenfel]

wait.. does this mean after a dragon knock you down you will be immune to its wing knockdown for 3 rounds? thats some goody PvE improvements also..

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

wait.. does this mean after a dragon knock you down you will be immune to its wing knockdown for 3 rounds? thats some goody PvE improvements also..

That would be amazing, but I have my doubts.