Feedback on Imps

[Kuma]

I'd like to propose returning them to the Major award tier.

Not for mechanical reasons (they're actually kind of garbage) or "tier" reasons (some would argue that a few of our autoraces should be rarer by comparison, and thus imps must be more common), but for viability purposes.

Imps are not free agents. They are by their very nature locked into one font of lore, one alignment, one mode of existing. The value that PC Imps add to the game world overall is negligible-to-detrimental, in my opinion. They lack agency - they exist within a hierarchy that we as players can only hint at and extrapolate from. You're playing a cog in a machine without knowing what the machine does, that is to say, by not being a DM and deciding What Hell Is Doing With You, Specifically. The difficulty of portraying imps in a compelling, setting appropriate, and thematic manner leads me to believe they should be gated back to Major awards (or even just removed).

you may remember that i advocated quite strongly in their defense when they were first added, because everyone's gripe at the time was "it's dumb that imps can summon pit fiends/be level 30!", and i found that a weak excuse and was very looking forward to playing an imp. i did for a time. i eventually submitted a refund request. you can justify them summoning pit fiends or being strong precisely as easily as you can justify a level 30 goblin thriving (not just surviving) in andunor*.

For these reasons making them as readily accessible as a greater award doesn't seem great. I also kind of think ogres should go back to Greater, but I imagine they'll be rotated out with Minotaurs in x months, so that's not as important.

thank you for coming to my ted talk


*i have thoughts on that regardless but we're a decade after urblexis grond, i guess goblins can stay


EDIT: replacing imps with falxugons would actually make far more sense from a thematic perspective. They possess what the Imp does not:
Agency to perform its own schemes in lore (and be on the Prime all the time), while still being low enough rank that the machinations of Hell are not theirs to command, and,
Humanoid form to facilitate more wide-ranging roleplay (just give them a red tail to hide).

the main issue of playing an outsider, especially ones like devils that are very much hinged on the faust mythos, is that we as players can't do anything unique to tempt characters. D&D pacts are often for things like XP, gold, magic items, services of other fiends, magical powers. We can't do that. An imp doesn't get to do that and also is stuck in this limbo of a lack of agency and yet total free will as a PC. Maybe we should just not have outsiders as a playable race.

[The GrumpyCat]

I mean in the long term, I think you may be right Kuma.

I've been considering new 5% options, as I want to keep them fun and interesting. And one of the things that people seem to want to play, over and over again, is outsiders. Angels/Demons and stuff. And I see why, it's very epic and cool, but I honestly don't see us adding any more for just the reasons you laid out - they've very difficult and involving to play and don't even neccesarly fit into the sever ethos.

So whilst I wouldn't put aside the idea of more planar Blooded things, I don't think we'll be making any more full planar creatures. And indeed, perhaps one day Imps may even be removed entirely - but right now without the 'customisable 5%' I feel that the 5% option is a little lacking due to lack of choice. So I'd like to expand that choice a good deal further, before removing options from it.

When we looked at the numbers of five%/Greater Awards people were playing this month, imps came down the lowest, so I thought I'd put imps down to greater awards. You're right in that they are basicaly 'cogs in the machine' but in away, can't the same be said for Warlocks too? And again, when next rotation comes I think it likely they will be shifted back to 5% (or maybe not? Who knows whoooo!) But for now I thought they were the best choice. I thought get a few more imps out there, if people wanted them, then see how things went.

As an aside I ADORE Falxugons! But I can't see ever adding them as a playable race, because aside from anything else their signature ability 'Refuge of The Damned' would both be very difficult, and potentialy really Annoying to put into play.

Tl;DR: In the long term I entirely agree with you and will probably go with what you say. In the short term let's run with this and make do.

[RedGiant]

I love Imps and think they, by lore, are the most plentiful and innocuous of outsiders. In fact. I think most realmsmen who spot say...a wizard with an imp...might just roll their eyes, mutter curses, or try to shoo it away like one would a minor household pest or a naughty pet. While some would deem it necessary to eradicate them anyway, their threat level is generally low enough that you dont turn out the Army...or rarely even the guard, to deal with one. (Providing it's generally being innocous.)

Anything above that, to include tieflings and cambions, and I think the general level of reaction should escalate.

I dont think the Arelith community did great with this when Imps first came out, and generally you would think Asmodeus just showed up when one went public. It's gotten better since, but I would hate to see escalation here, which I think Falxugons etc. would only increase. There might also be the sense of fiendish invasion.

I also disagree with the narrow view of "cogs in the machine". Imp lore is a bit all over the map, but there are tantalizing bits to suggest they are something different...e.g. the very fact of being non-baatezu. In addition, not all the hells are planes of just order in its purest sensr... or or even rigid sameness (see Modrons). The governing principle of the hells is EVIL even over order. Here I think devil's and solitary imps especially can have a radical spectrum of individuality, motivations, goals, dreams, etc.

[JustMonika]

I've always wanted playable Angels on the server.

I don't think we can hold ourselves to standards of realism too highly. Your average mortal literally pops off to hell to "Train" multiple times a week. Or the Abyss. And slays dragons.

And these arn't the epic heros of Arelith, player characters with decades of experience. This could be your average peasent whose been off the boat for a month.

I just can't be opposed to more unique and rare things being added to the server, I think it would make more sense to explain why everyone is so epically powerful if the population were mostly planetouched or exotic species, even if I think everything Kuma says is absoultely spot on.