Suggestion Idea. Change to Base Clerics.

[BoredGM]

I’ve seen that someone at least addressed this before by searching for Undeath’s Eternal Foe, but it doesn’t seem to have been addressed or even replied to.
viewtopic.php?f=63&t=10179&p=83751&hili ... foe#p83751
The truth is, as it serves right now it’s a weak sauce level 9 spell.

Now since I see someone posted something and someone didn’t even bother to reply, I’ve sat near a fire in Bendir for a long time thinking about it.
I’ve looked at making new classes myself for a time, and I understand that it helps to be able to separate things that are unique and defining to the class. Looking at the cookie cutter post of the builds section, I see that clerics are casters, weapon users, or the unique path healers.

As weapon users, they might shine for a short duration with their buff spells, but it seems other classes have larger advantages when it comes to using weapons. That’s okay, a cleric has summons and other awesome things too.
As casters, it seems to me that they don’t really have many area affecting spells. Domains can help, but as far as I can tell a mage or a druid outclasses clerics. They might also be starving for spell slots, given that they want to be clerics AND casters.
Also, we might want something unique to clerics that do not go the healing path, besides turn undead and protection domain power. I was looking at the spell lists of all casters, and spells that I commonly used as a cleric.

What I propose is to add to the base cleric class by enhancing this spell.

Role 1 for the Base Cleric
“I am the BEST at equipping my group to handle ill effects.”

I propose these changes to the undeath eternal foe spell:
1.) Apply Freedom of Movement to all allies in a vicinity.
2.) Apply Death Ward to all allies in a vicinity.
3.) Apply Spell Resistance spell to all allies in a vicinity.
4.) Apply the Regeneration spell to all allies in a vicinity.
5.) Apply Mind Immunity – as per level 8 spell mind blank – to all allies in a vicinity.
6.) Apply Ultravision & See invisibility to all allies in a vicinity.
7.) Apply Globe of Invulnerability (Or immunity to gust of wind and iron horn) to all allies in a vicinity.
8.) Change the duration of the spell to one hour / level.

I propose these changes for these reasons:
1.) It would help to further define the role of clerics. It helps that this is a spell unique to the cleric list.
2.) It would help free up spell slots for caster clerics and weapon user clerics alike. This also allows them to use custom spells such as Nybor’s, Blasphemy, Halt Undead, or Sound Lance more. I often find myself as a cleric slotting a bunch of regenerates instead of other spells.
3.) This prevents everyone from clicking way too much to just buff all these things individually. People might skip over certain buffs such as death ward or freedom simply because they don’t want to click so much.
4.) The mind immunity is a big thing. I once stocked a bunch of clarities for me and my party and found because of the timer I could not buff each of us. Mind immunity is also a big thing for casting classes, and it is uniquely strange that the cleric does not have a method of attaining this besides a spell which lasts a short duration.
5.) The one hour per level I think would help with situations where the buffs go down, and then everyone rebuffs themselves individually, which devalues the cleric. Another part which devalues the cleric is everyone healing themselves even with a cleric in the party, which I believe regenerate 1 hour per level such as this would help. Also, it is a valuable level 9 spell slot which decreases piety accordingly.
6.) I think that gust of wind and iron horn having no spells resisting them is folly. If anyone else has ideas for this I’d be glad to hear it, but those spells could ALWAYS wipe a party unless they carry around globe of invulnerability scrolls on my previous server. I am fine with removing part 7 based on feedback, but I do think that should be addressed.
7.) I believe these changes fit with the flavor of the spell. Many undead creatures would attack many of these vulnerable conditions.

I would be grateful for any responses.

[Anomandaris]

My personal opinion is that clerics are top tier base classes as it is, with a variety of very viable play styles.

Without going into all the specific problems these changes could present I’ll say it simply as “Adding any substantial “enhancements,” which these certainly are, would make an already a very powerful class OP.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

Alright, so here's the most essential, critical feedback I can give you on this idea - are you aware that Undeath's Eternal Foe cannot be breached? That's an extremely potent combination of hour/level buffs you're asking for there- basically all the ones that really matter (death ward, mind blank, freedom, SR... Globe of Immunity, Regeneration, See Invisibility, Ultravision....) and most of which can be breached, normally, but couldn't via this application.

I dig what you're trying to do, but you're way too much for a single spell - I kinda think that would be a bit much even for an epic spell, without some kind of massive spellcraft requirement that you probably couldn't meet at level 30...

Edit: And I also happen to agree that clerics are, bar none, the most survivable class in the game.

[BoredGM]

Alright, so here's the most essential, critical feedback I can give you on this idea - are you aware that Undeath's Eternal Foe cannot be breached? That's an extremely potent combination of hour/level buffs you're asking for there- basically all the ones that really matter (death ward, mind blank, freedom, SR... Globe of Immunity, Regeneration, See Invisibility, Ultravision....[/i]) and most of which can be breached, normally, but couldn't via this application.

I dig what you're trying to do, but you're way too much for a single spell - I kinda think that would be a bit much even for an epic spell, without some kind of massive spellcraft requirement that you probably couldn't meet at level 30...

That is a viable consideration. I wonder if it can be made to be breached? I can take a look into that myself too.

I also thought about that writing this up, and one reason I wanted to put this in the feedback section was because I wanted to consider mages in PvP in particular. Does anyone think that applying these effects to protect against save or sucks would prove irrevocably damaging to Sorcerer's and Wizard's in PvP?
It was my impression Wizards and Sorcerer's could at least lower the Spell Resistance.

[Skarain]

The original poster does have a point though. Undeath's Eternal Foe is a little underwhelming for a 9th level spell. I would never slot it, Storm of Vengeance and Gate being much more effective for "dangerous situations" be they undead or not.

Undeath's Eternal Foe: Allies in Medium (3.33 meter radius receive immunity to negative energy damage, immunity to level/energy drain, immunity to ability score decreases, immunity to poison, immunity to diseases and a +4 deflection bonus to AC for 1 round / level

The main (and only) advantage of the spell is that it cannot be breached. (like others wrote aswell while i was still writing mine).

The +4 deflection bonus to AC can be achieved (and +5 to add) with one Shield of Faith) also by other means. The rounds / level is also very underwhelming, especially since you can't extend it.

Does anyone have any actual experiences about successfully using the spell for a greater benefit? The description leaves it looking underwhelming, so curious if anyone has actually made use of it proper? And if so in what situations?

[BoredGM]

After taking a quick look, if necessary it is my impression that Undeath's Eternal Foe can be added to the list of spells that are breachable. This might be done by adding it to either the RemoveProtections Method or the DoSpellBreach Method, considering that they allow the use of Spell ID's.

[BoredGM]

Bah I thought this was a fantastic idea. Otherwise clerics are just going to click 20 times more and take up time buffing. I really did.
Whatever heh.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Bah I thought this was a fantastic idea. Otherwise clerics are just going to click 20 times more and take up time buffing. I really did.
Whatever heh.

Healer path+ that kind of uber spell will kickn abard not into the streets but the trashbin as well in terms of support roll. Try having more minorntweaks

[Aren]

First things first: I'm not trying to be snide. This is feedback.

Having one 9th level spell give everyone in the vicinity (almost) every top-tier ward for hours/level is so ridiculous, I don't even know where to begin. Especially on a class that, if built right, is the single most powerful class in the game.

(Edited to address your points individually)

1.) It would help to further define the role of clerics. It helps that this is a spell unique to the cleric list.
Feedback: Clerics' role is already defined. They are conduits of their deity, with some very powerful tools in their kit.

2.) It would help free up spell slots for caster clerics and weapon user clerics alike. This also allows them to use custom spells such as Nybor’s, Blasphemy, Halt Undead, or Sound Lance more. I often find myself as a cleric slotting a bunch of regenerates instead of other spells.
Feedback: I cannot understate the significance of freeing up spell slots for offensive spells, by making a "everything in one" spell. This is immensely powerful in itself.


3.) This prevents everyone from clicking way too much to just buff all these things individually. People might skip over certain buffs such as death ward or freedom simply because they don’t want to click so much.
Feedback: This would also negate any kind of dispel / breach gameplay, as one scroll / spell could redo everything you lost in one action. Applying and reapplying buffs is core gameplay of casters. Sorry if you find it tedious.

4.) The mind immunity is a big thing. I once stocked a bunch of clarities for me and my party and found because of the timer I could not buff each of us. Mind immunity is also a big thing for casting classes, and it is uniquely strange that the cleric does not have a method of attaining this besides a spell which lasts a short duration.
Feedback: The mind immunity is the least of the problems with this suggestion. Perhaps the reason as to why clerics do not have mind immunity in their kit, is for balancing reasons? Who knows.

5.) The one hour per level I think would help with situations where the buffs go down, and then everyone rebuffs themselves individually, which devalues the cleric. Another part which devalues the cleric is everyone healing themselves even with a cleric in the party, which I believe regenerate 1 hour per level such as this would help. Also, it is a valuable level 9 spell slot which decreases piety accordingly.
Feedback: Making all these spells last one hour per level is unreasonable. I don't understand what you mean by: then everyone rebuffs themselves individually, which devalues the cleric.? If you want to talk about devaluing cleric, imagine what would happen if a 9th level scroll could do everything a cleric could, for hours/level. You wouldn't need a cleric in your party anymore, as a wizard with 80 lore (easily reachable) could just cast the spell.

6.) I think that gust of wind and iron horn having no spells resisting them is folly. If anyone else has ideas for this I’d be glad to hear it, but those spells could ALWAYS wipe a party unless they carry around globe of invulnerability scrolls on my previous server. I am fine with removing part 7 based on feedback, but I do think that should be addressed.
Feedback: Gust of wind is irrelevant as it is a fort-save. If your'e not sitting at 38+ fortitude, GoW is the least of your concerns. Iron Horn have been made almost irrelevant by arelith-specific changes, unless you play a class with very low dex or strength, in which case it is a very good counter towards those kinds of classes.

7.) I believe these changes fit with the flavor of the spell. Many undead creatures would attack many of these vulnerable conditions.
Feedback: Sorry to rain on your parade with this feedback. But this would even be too powerful for an epic spell slot.

[DangerDolphin]

IMO it would be better if it were not so heavily modified but simply adjusted.

Swap the AC deflection for a dodge AC vs Undead only, add AB vs undead to all in the area, and make it turns/level or hours/level.

[BoredGM]

Feedback: Clerics' role is already defined. They are conduits of their deity, with some very powerful tools in their kit.

2.) It would help free up spell slots for caster clerics and weapon user clerics alike. This also allows them to use custom spells such as Nybor’s, Blasphemy, Halt Undead, or Sound Lance more. I often find myself as a cleric slotting a bunch of regenerates instead of other spells.
Feedback: I cannot understate the significance of freeing up spell slots for offensive spells, by making a "everything in one" spell. This is immensely powerful in itself.

3.) This prevents everyone from clicking way too much to just buff all these things individually. People might skip over certain buffs such as death ward or freedom simply because they don’t want to click so much.
Feedback: This would also negate any kind of dispel / breach gameplay, as one scroll / spell could redo everything you lost in one action. Applying and reapplying buffs is core gameplay of casters. Sorry if you find it tedious.

4.) The mind immunity is a big thing. I once stocked a bunch of clarities for me and my party and found because of the timer I could not buff each of us. Mind immunity is also a big thing for casting classes, and it is uniquely strange that the cleric does not have a method of attaining this besides a spell which lasts a short duration.
Feedback: The mind immunity is the least of the problems with this suggestion. Perhaps the reason as to why clerics do not have mind immunity in their kit, is for balancing reasons? Who knows.

5.) The one hour per level I think would help with situations where the buffs go down, and then everyone rebuffs themselves individually, which devalues the cleric. Another part which devalues the cleric is everyone healing themselves even with a cleric in the party, which I believe regenerate 1 hour per level such as this would help. Also, it is a valuable level 9 spell slot which decreases piety accordingly.
Feedback: Making all these spells last one hour per level is unreasonable. I don't understand what you mean by: then everyone rebuffs themselves individually, which devalues the cleric.? If you want to talk about devaluing cleric, imagine what would happen if a 9th level scroll could do everything a cleric could, for hours/level. You wouldn't need a cleric in your party anymore, as a wizard with 80 lore (easily reachable) could just cast the spell.

6.) I think that gust of wind and iron horn having no spells resisting them is folly. If anyone else has ideas for this I’d be glad to hear it, but those spells could ALWAYS wipe a party unless they carry around globe of invulnerability scrolls on my previous server. I am fine with removing part 7 based on feedback, but I do think that should be addressed.
Feedback: Gust of wind is irrelevant as it is a fort-save. If your'e not sitting at 38+ fortitude, GoW is the least of your concerns. Iron Horn have been made almost irrelevant by arelith-specific changes, unless you play a class with very low dex or strength, in which case it is a very good counter towards those kinds of classes.

7.) I believe these changes fit with the flavor of the spell. Many undead creatures would attack many of these vulnerable conditions.
Feedback: Sorry to rain on your parade with this feedback. But this would even be too powerful for an epic spell slot.

1.) As far I've seen the clerics role isn't defined, and this doesn't define it any further. Perhaps I should have clarified with combat role. The only thing a cleric seems to be able to do better than other classes is use resurrection.

2.) Yeah, that was the point. It doesn't help a caster cleric - or a warrior cleric - if all they have is buffs in every single spell slot for the party.

3.) As I've said, that does not have to be so. I believe a simple addition to the code can make it not so. But even if it was, would this be bad? Nobody has answered that question. It's okay if you think it is so, but what you would be defending is the essence and the existence of save vs suck conditions. In my experience, some wouldn't really agree with this sort of thing being used, or if they are then being used carefully. There could also always be an antimagic zone. If you think the core gameplay of casters is essentially applying save or sucks, and buffing against them as much as they can, then I ask you to defend the concept of it.

4.) Cool, I'm glad we agree.

5.) How would you feel if as a cleric you had slotted all of your spare level 7 slots with greater restoration, only to find that your allies don't even care for you to heal them? Instead they use healing kits faster than you can heal them. Doesn't it seem like a waste of your spell slots and your class abilities?
The same goes for applying buffs, and then reapplying them individually as soon as you get to the cave outside of town. Sure, you can hold off on the buffs until the cave, but I don't see what that's bringing to the table.

6.) Cool, so it seems like a roll of one on each of these spells is a bad thing to happen at any level? Seems like a save or suck, with no spell granting immunity to it, same as on my previous server. Ghostly visage would grant immunity to iron horn I know, but that's so weird to me, having only that spell do it.

But nobody seems to be granting to me that a cleric can do this all themselves anyway, besides of course the mind immunity which they can do for only themselves and not their party. It would just represent what a cleric can do themselves anyway already, which is of course their spells spell resistance, death ward, freedom, regenerate, and mind immunity but for the party as well. Oh and ultravision, pfft. Not like a druid can't do that anyway.

All of this I think won't matter anyway, the change probably isn't going to happen.

[Aren]

I summon jack oat to this thread.

[magistrasa]

UEF has its niches, I'm just guessing that you don't PvP or you haven't experienced the epic dungeons in which a cleric is more likely to slot the spell. Not every spell needs to be useful all the time. Especially when it's in the spell list for the most versatile and arguably the most powerful class in the game. I don't know how you can play a cleric, or fight a cleric, and not understand the potency of the class. There's really nothing else to say here except that you probably just need to experience more of the class and more of the game. You'll change your mind.

[Nitro]

How does this nerf clerics though?

[BoredGM]

Also, with the idea of sequencers - or a single spell - doing all of it in one go...that's a BAD idea? I thought that would be a GOOD idea, because then if dispelled it could be reapplied in a single go, which is extremely interactive at it's core. A buff single shot sequencer could also have something like a 1 per day or 2 per day power, restricting it's use.

I also forgot to say with regards to the scrolls and wands, that could of course be gated above the level with which those are cast at. That would mean only clerics could do it.

I think maybe YOU will learn. Lol. But of course, that doesn't help the discussion .

[Twohand]

At this point, might as well include:

9.) Casts Empowered Harm on all enemies in the vicinity.

[Jack Oat]

I summon jack oat to this thread.

At this point, might as well include:

9.) Casts Empowered Harm on all enemies in the vicinity.

Yeah. This is a Billy Mayes suggestion, in that it started out ok and then just went "BUT WAIT THERE'S MORE!!!"

In short: no.

In long: too many powerful defenses in one spell. As is, each has to be carefully considered and used as counterplay. What you're suggesting is basically "haha nothing can debuff me ever!" And that's not OK.

Cleric is in one of THE best places it's ever been against most melee builds due to the lack of access to breach/dispels by them. Against mages? Not so much.

[BoredGM]

Yeah. This is a Billy Mayes suggestion, in that it started out ok and then just went "BUT WAIT THERE'S MORE!!!"

In short: no.

In long: too many powerful defenses in one spell. As is, each has to be carefully considered and used as counterplay. What you're suggesting is basically "haha nothing can debuff me ever!" And that's not OK.

Cleric is in one of THE best places it's ever been against most melee builds due to the lack of access to breach/dispels by them. Against mages? Not so much.

That's not true at all, it can be debuffed if added to the code and that is what is wished. Not only that, lack of debuff for these spells doesn't mean complete invincibility. All of these only protect against save or sucks, and none of them protects against a greatsword or a scimitar.

There was no "Wait theres more!" Each has been carefully considered and I've only defended that which I've originally put up there.
As was said with the post above about one shots for buffs being cool, in other words each spell does NOT have to be carefully considered. If dispelled, you just have to worry about buffing them all again over 6 rounds or so in combat. What counterplay specifically did you mean in your post?

[Anomandaris]

Yeah. This is a Billy Mayes suggestion, in that it started out ok and then just went "BUT WAIT THERE'S MORE!!!"

In short: no.

In long: too many powerful defenses in one spell. As is, each has to be carefully considered and used as counterplay. What you're suggesting is basically "haha nothing can debuff me ever!" And that's not OK.

Cleric is in one of THE best places it's ever been against most melee builds due to the lack of access to breach/dispels by them. Against mages? Not so much.

That's not true at all, it can be debuffed if added to the code and that is what is wished. Not only that, lack of debuff for these spells doesn't mean complete invincibility. All of these only protect against save or sucks, and none of them protects against a greatsword or a scimitar.

There was no "Wait theres more!" Each has been carefully considered and I've only defended that which I've originally put up there.
As was said with the post above about one shots for buffs being cool, in other words each spell does NOT have to be carefully considered. If dispelled, you just have to worry about buffing them all again over 6 rounds or so in combat. What counterplay specifically did you mean in your post?

No other class or spell offers instant protection, nay immunity, across the board like that, let alone as an AOE. It would be extremely OP to improve it along those lines. By counter play it means you’re picking mind immune or necro immune or freedom, as an example. Then the other player can breach or attack another vector where there is a vulnerability. As an aside, the cleric class already has both high con and wis, a good save progression and spellcraft. I would already not be targeting them with any “save or suck” spells as you like to call them.

The class is extremely powerful and the consensus is generally it needs no additional enhancements to compete as a melee or caster build.

[DangerDolphin]

While it's very true that the original suggestion would be overpowered, the OP does have a valid point that the spell is weak compared to others of it's level.

It's also true that clerics are a very powerful class right now, but I doubt this would be the straw to break the camel's back and isn't a good reason not to discuss particular spells. If it really would be, then perhaps a separate topic is in order to discuss some nerfs to the cleric class is called for.

[BoredGM]

Yeah, it was also part of the point that no other class or spell does that. That is something the cleric would be BEST at. That would become part of their defined role.
I fail to see how it would be extremely OP.

By counter play it means you’re picking mind immune or necro immune or freedom, as an example. Then the other player can breach or attack another vector where there is a vulnerability.

And if you think that is compelling, that is your view. My view is it would be more compelling to be able to buff against them all in a single go.

The class is extremely powerful and the consensus is generally it needs no additional enhancements to compete as a melee or caster build.

If this is also the consensus, that this is the view a person holds. It's okay to hold a different view. But again, none of these would help the melee capabilities of a cleric.

[BoredGM]

It might be viable to make it monstrous regeneration instead of regenerate for the use of UEF. This was as far as I see from the wiki, the healers can't use it for overhealing.
Also it could be only for PC's, rather than all allies.

[BoredGM]

But yeah honestly, I really did expect someone to say "Hey that's a really good idea!" SInce nobody has said this it'll be fine if we just forget it. Someone can make their own suggestion for a change to the spell, if you all want to change it anyway.

[Anomandaris]

But yeah honestly, I really did expect someone to say "Hey that's a really good idea!" SInce nobody has said this it'll be fine if we just forget it. Someone can make their own suggestion for a change to the spell, if you all want to change it anyway.

Well also suggestion thread is closed for a reason so this is more of a philosophical discussion.

If you decide to play a bcleric or healer path to lvl 30 and find yourself in PvP or PVE somehow under-matched against literally anything out there, I would be amazed.

All ideas are worth consideration and of value. If the balance implications of broad based aoe immunities don’t concern you though, we’re just not gonna find common ground on this one haha.

Lastly I’ll say that not every spell needs to be awesome. Some are very niche, some rarely get used. It’s hard enough on the devs to balance the “classes” and ecosystem, without balancing every spell out there. I think that clerics by and large aren’t the least bit bummed out about their comparative power level or variety of available tools. As an old adage says, if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

@ OP, regarding iron horn and gust of wind.

Lesser/ globe of invulnerability will make you immune to both. Lesser globe (shadow conjuration variant) will UNBREACHABLY make you immune to both.

Ghostly visage should render you immune to bard/warlock iron horn. Ethereal visage will also render you immune to iron horn.