Revert Katana Changes and make it work with UBAB

[Zaphiel]

In current situation, katana is not viable at all. It doesn't benefit from UBAB, needs heavy monk level investment to be partly viable. Have no use for multiclassing.

Katana + wakizashi combo is just awful because you are exchanging your off-hand ab for shield AC. I can't see any reason for going to this combo when we look at other monk options.

20 monk can go to unarmed and can benefit:
- 35dc Stun Fist
- 8 total APR
- +2AB bonus on level 20, can still get more ab with level progress and with feats.
- More damage

Dual-wield kama can end up with 10APR in total, doesn't needs heavy investments, has unique weapon, people can use it with dips.

My suggestion is:
- Revert katana size to small.
- Make it work with UBAB.
- Remove bonus AB on level progression.
- Make it need Weapon Profiency: Exotic for to use it (Also profiency feat shouldn't given free to monks). So people who chooses katana over kama will need to sacriface a feat. Also It will be exchange of 19-20 threat range than 20 threat range and -1 ab since kama have +4 unique variation.

i might have missed a point so please feel free to correct / add.

[AstralUniverse]

I thought Wakizashi also comes in Masterly damask form that I assume gives +3 ab +6 damage on top of the +3 ac. Is it incorrect? But even if it is correct, I see no reason to go for katana over sai or kama.

Also unarmed monks get 7 apr hasted with flurry mode. Just a small correction.

[TimeAdept]

Counterpoint:

Don't do this, but also remove Naginata from working with monk UBAB too.

Monk/WM with katana was degenerate, and we have that same issue again, except with +2 AB, with naginata and SD/WM. The crit multiplier nerf was a good start.

[RedGiant]

Yeah, sure, if you want to see all monks look like a preying mantis again. This thread is going in similar directions as the Naginata nerf thread, so I will not repeat my points from there again. But it would be nice if we could see increased viable monk options rather than reduced.

Naginata was a niche weapon for Str monks. I'm trying hard to think of a scenario here where there is a reason to even use this weapon anymore? It is now a 20x2 crit weapon. To spit out a meme str-monk damage maching, flawed as that concept is from the start, I will now almost inevitably choose quarterstaff, which allows additional off-hand attacks and comes in a nice +3 +1d12 variant...or, if I have a large monk investment, simply going unarmed, which has a higher base damage, enables all the unarmed trickery, and comes with a free focus. Cause Jack Oat said.

I agree with the OPs sentiment that we have a ton of new monk weapon options, most some of which are not now viable.

[Zaphiel]

I thought Wakizashi also comes in Masterly damask form that I assume gives +3 ab +6 damage on top of the +3 ac. Is it incorrect? But even if it is correct, I see no reason to go for katana over sai or kama.

Wakizashi comes with an Attack Penalty attritube. M. damask wakizashi have -3 attack penalty in exchange of +3 shield ac. So you are lowering your already abysmal AB even more. And monk can use skleen for getting +1 Shield AC. So real benefit of using wakizashi is -3 AB +2 AC.

Also unarmed monks get 7 apr hasted with flurry mode. Just a small correction.

16 monk 4 fighter (or full ab progression class) ends up with 16 base attack bonus. Which is 6 base APR for monk. 7 with flurry of blows. 8 with haste. I should have pointed that 20 monk as multi-classed, my bad.

[Zaphiel]

Counterpoint:

Don't do this, but also remove Naginata from working with monk UBAB too.

Monk/WM with katana was degenerate, and we have that same issue again, except with +2 AB, with naginata and SD/WM. The crit multiplier nerf was a good start.

Dual-wield kukri WM with 8APR also crits for 140~ damage, 90-100 in off-hand attacks. Monk/WM would lose 18 24 damage (in crits) when compared to said one in exchange of 2 apr. And 8apr kukri wm have two free attacks inserted to their total APR thus happens in full AB (first one is in full ab, second is in -5) without dual-wield penalty which is more wilder than monk/wm. Monk/wm would have very low AB when it comes to his last attacks. Which would make it Flurry of misses. This would bring to having importance of having decent AC.

[TimeAdept]

1: it's 7 attacks - 4 mainhand, 2 off, 1 haste, with Kukris, vs naginata's 6 base 1 haste 1 flurry which is 8

2: Swings at -5's instead of -3's, and relies on TWF feats

3: Isn't two handing (which is a +4 AB difference alone between 2 handing, +2 if you Flurry)

4: can't be easily built to get an SD dip (the kukri wm), giving them HIPS along the WM and monk goodies and saves, and helping shore up the AC through HIPS mechanics and permanent monk movespeed

5: Isn't losing any of its damage to its offhand, and swings every attack at 1.5x STR instead of 1.0 and 0.5x

The 10-20 of the kukri doesn't matter if you're only hitting on 15-16 and up, not to mention the kukri is tiny and has issues with Disarm, and Nagi is Large - another consideration, though minor, to take into account.

[Zaphiel]

1: it's 7 attacks - 4 mainhand, 2 off, 1 haste, with Kukris, vs naginata's 6 base 1 haste 1 flurry which is 8

2: Swings at -5's instead of -3's, and relies on TWF feats

3: Isn't two handing (which is a +4 AB difference alone between 2 handing, +2 if you Flurry)

4: can't be easily built to get an SD dip (the kukri wm), giving them HIPS along the WM and monk goodies and saves, and helping shore up the AC through HIPS mechanics and permanent monk movespeed

5: Isn't losing any of its damage to its offhand, and swings every attack at 1.5x STR instead of 1.0 and 0.5x

The 10-20 of the kukri doesn't matter if you're only hitting on 15-16 and up, not to mention the kukri is tiny and has issues with Disarm, and Nagi is Large - another consideration, though minor, to take into account.

I am quoted a different build that have no monk levels in it. That 8APR kukri wm was it. You told me katana wm/monk was degenerate, I pointed there is more wild build exist. And I am trying to point katana shouldn't be issue when compared to this type of WM. And katana would also reverted to small thus would have issue with disarms.

[TimeAdept]

You can replace "Naginata" with "katana" in my post,and knock the AB numbers down by 2, and everything is the same, since you can 2 hand katanas for the same result. Katana worked with unarmed UBAB as a monk weapon so you could flurry of blows ans Haste with it allowing 8 attacks to the kukri's 7 - but with the same number of full BAB attacks and at a -3 descending set of iteratives, instead of -5. Just like Nagi.

Katana was rightfully nerfed because it allowed degenerate meta centralizing builds - Naginata allowed the exact same thing but better in every way. (which is why I call for nagi to also be removed from monk UBAB, but the multiplier nerf is good too.)

Unarmed Monk is giving up a gauntlet slot, a weapon slot, and a potential shield slot for enchanting and gearing, and also requires feats that want 21+ wisdom to be able to get +5 damage piercing, something any weapon user can do with a single GMW scroll. A DC 35 stunning fist (that still needs to pass AC and hit) is a pittance - fort is the most important save to gear, and it's expected you gear to hita 40-42 DC with no failure chance except a 1. The d20 damage and the bonus AB and damage it gets as it levels now is definitely nice though, I'm not going to knock on that.

Dual wield kama requires the most investment of any monk weapon. It needs TWF feats, is Exotic unlike Quarterstaff (but so are katana and nagi, + monk profs, so we can scratch this), and is two separate tiny weapons, being the most vulnerable of all weapon types, the least damage, the worst crit modifier, not as good damage type as quarterstaff (bludgeon is best) and the lowest AB (-2 TWF -2 flurry - quarterstaff counts as 2handing so you're technically TWF at 0/0). It's absolutely good - but dual kamas tends to be moslty used by builds that can't use quarterstaves - or people seeking to use them for the +4 AB/+7 dmg kamas.

re: your suggestions - i wouldn't mind a return of Katana to small, but memeing katana TWF was funny to me. It really should not work with ubab, as explained above. Since I'm not for your change, scrapping the AB bonus is moot. I'm not for the wep prof change becaue I think the proficiency changes were great, and it's unintuitive for one specific weapon to have completely different functionality than every other weapon in the game. You would also, however, be re introducing the possibility of dual weilding katanas with monk UBAB, which simply creates a better-than-kamas and quarterstaves in every possible way situation.

Adding weapons to monk UBAB that are "better than quarterstaff", especially ones that can be two handed, ahs really done nothing but cause over-centralization and power issues with the monk class.

[Aodh Lazuli]

Tbh, just remove monk, naginata, katana and wakizachi from the game entirely. Along with all trenchcoat models.

[Aren]

Tbh, just remove monk, naginata, katana and wakizachi from the game entirely. Along with all trenchcoat models.

:^)

[AstralUniverse]

Katana is medium now but doesnt get the -4 if you have something small in your offhand like wakizashi or kama. If it's ubab again you just never use kama or sai ever again when you toggle waki + imp expertise as it becomes objectively superior because of the crit range.

Katana can also be 2handed, so giving it ubab back also makes a 19-20 x2 crit 2h monk ubab. We just nerfed a 20 x3 so I dont see a reason to boost a 19-20 x2 back to the same tier.

Katana + wakizashi combo is just awful because you are exchanging your off-hand ab for shield AC. I can't see any reason for going to this combo when we look at other monk options.

Agreed. And I think it's alright as is.

[Hinty]

Katana as it was was just ridiculous. And not because of Monks.

Any finesse character pretty much HAD to use Katanas or be sacrificing significant amounts of damage.

Any small character HAD to use Katanas for the same reason.

Katana was the ONLY finesse weapon, or weapon that could be used in one hand by small characters, that did more than 1d6 base damage, and it did 1d10. Almost double.

(Light Flail technically did 1d8, but with a x2 20 crit range...)

As it is now it is a one handed weapon that does more damage than all other one handers and you pay for that with the exotic feat.

You should not be able to have both. Either you make it a Small weapon and reduce its damage output to a similar level to other small weapons, or you keep its damage where it is and leave it as it is.

Katanas are a rare and exotic sword design from a part of the world that has very little contact with Faerun, let alone the even more remote and isolated Arelith. They should not be the most common weapon on the server.

[Entre Laberintos]

I think that katana should get their weeb weapon status. But in exchange, it needs to have its damage and crit nerfed.