Arelith

This thread was inspired by my reading through the slavery discussion thread and coming to the realization that something about my feelings towards Underdark roleplay has fundamentally changed. The objective of this thread is more or less to share experiences and explore those changed feelings, as well as perhaps brainstorm concepts and ideas that can become sources of inspiration.

When I first started playing Arelith, I messed around with a surface character for a few days, but dropped the idea and went straight to the Underdark to play a drow. I'd never played a villain before, but everything about it sounded more appealing to me - a city ripe with chaos and conflict and intrigue, a mature player base who understood how to handle and develop tension, a centralized design with straightforward paths of progression to counter the aimless meandering of the surface. This was before writs were even released! When I rolled up my drow and played through the world, the Underdark was everything I wanted it to be. My interactions with people felt meaningful, as I could see the rippling impacts of my decisions and my lies. Before I even hit the epic levels, my drowess became a High Priestess in the Temple of Lolth, and she became a councilor of the Devil's Table, all while deceptively concealing the fact that she was a Sharran priestess working to ruin everything she'd been put in charge of. There were so many heart-stopping moments of intense roleplay where I could feel the pressure of one's choices, where all the players on the sidelines eagerly watched to see how they could manipulate the situation to their favor, and it's easy to see why that kind of experience would inspire a deep affection for the UD as a roleplay setting.

Something changed with my next character, almost a year after. I got sick and took some time off, and couldn't get into the old groove, so I made something new for myself. A human outcast this time, with her own host of lies and schemes. Many of the same players and the same characters were around as before, and for a while, the magic was much the same as before. But I don't feel that magic anymore. Here are a few of my personal experiences and conclusions I've come to in an attempt to understand what happened - obviously these are all just musings from a single person's perspective, so of course I have my biases, and you shouldn't read it as a rounded historical account that contains the whole truth and the whole story:

The addition of writs solidified the Underdark as the best possible leveling experience, which meant there were dozens of characters at a time who solely existed to rungrind and die - which led to a sense among many more established and long-term characters that there was little reason to get attached to strangers, as it was discouraging to include people in plotlines only to see them rolled days later. Outcast changes relegated Outcasts almost exclusively to the UD, as the surface took to telling them "leave or die" at first sight, whether they were meeting a contact in the Crow's Nest or chopping hardwood in the forest. This severed the strongest ties the UD had to the surface, and limited the impact that could be imparted between the two worlds. Few people have much awareness as to what happens between one place and the other - and fewer care, as there's the understanding that not much can be done between them beyond raids and revenge raids. There was a drow house that, for a time, didn't seem to care much for intrigue to instead simply kill everyone they didn't like, and upon proving how successful that tactic was, the answers given to people's problems more and more often became, "Why not just kill them and be done with it?" Not just that, but there was a feeling of conflict exhaustion resulting from the whole "civil war" that just never went away. When Greyport opened up there was a pervasive sense of disdain for the district, and in spite of the opportunities it opened up, it went ignored by most everyone at the time. I don't know if that's quite the case anymore, but there was a strange resentment in the air whenever Greyport was spoken of. I don't know whether it came at a bad moment in Andunor's culture, or if people were already fed up with the way settlement and election systems tend to play out in Andunor (indeed, several people at the time were based in Greyport because they couldn't be evicted, and as soon as Greyport's first election went through, they were unceremoniously evicted), but the sense I got from people was a hopeless sort of "what's the point?" vibe. Somewhere along the way, various powerful groups in the UD decided that they had to band together, no matter what, just to keep the peace in the city and make sure Andunor didn't devour itself. Bound by mutually assured destruction, these groups seemed unwilling to turn on each other, no matter what good reasons came to kill each other. This further limited the (already seemingly slim) possibility of meaningful conflict, as most conflicts that emerge will be aggressively tackled and repressed "for the good of Andunor."

I hope it doesn't sound like I'm complaining about specific groups or people because I swear to God I'm not. Every action and every reaction to the UD's various challenges makes perfect sense from both an IC and OOC perspective - as well as a development perspective, regarding those changes to the server. I just don't know how we got here. It can hardly be attributed to one event, but even the people who have loved the Underdark for years upon years - for much longer than I've enjoyed it, and perhaps not even for the same reasons - agree that there's something not quite right, and that it's hard to enjoy the experience anymore. It comes from a feeling of stagnation. It comes from feeling like nothing matters, nothing changes, and there's nothing worthwhile to really do anymore. For my part, I've been hit so hard by the ol' Andunorian Apathy that I can't even bring myself to level a character much further past 26, because I realize (whether the realization is true or not) that there's nothing fun for me to do anymore.

So, what do we do in the shadows? What endeavors are there that are worthwhile to pursue? What meaningful interactions with the world are left to us? What do you think changed, and how can we change for the better?

snip

I came back from a long-ish hiatus a few months ago myself, and some things I've noticed, and some things I think will help:

-I agree with the weird disconnect feeling. It's got an almost Skal-like atmosphere, where it feels like the stuff that happens on the UD server (and stuff that happens elsewhere) is self-contained and might as well be happening on Amia compared to the other servers. I genuinely think bringing outcast back as an intermediary race instead of widely-known-mass-murderers would help, as would easing away from the trend of slowly turning Andunor into Udos 2: Dead Server Boogaloo. I keep repeating it, but people aren't going to play drow just because it's their only option. We tried that before.

-Less district stuff. Just, straight up. Politics in the UD are boring in that they really, truly, genuinely, do not matter. The person who wins a district has eviction powers and can use those to make themselves, I guess annoying, but the bulk of RP happens either in the hub or inside of quarters at this point anyway (which may or may not be its own problem), and the focus on settlement politics brings it closer to being a surface mirror rather than a surface alternative. The latter, I think, is where the UD's strength has always lied. A place for people who don't necessarily like Cordor/Guldorand/Myon et al type settlement stuff to congregate.

The Hub expansion helped, but still. A lot of it rings hollow because it's not even a city, it's an offshoot of a city in a way that feels as if the Actual Powers That Be in Andunor (Hubmaster, Freth, etc) have it as a distraction.

-Some kind of guidance on what the 'real' (read: mechanically endorsed/DM controlled/'permanent') factions are up to/for/moving towards. There's a lot of good stuff in the UD/Andunor to bring some flavor other than settlement politics and surface raids (and a big kudos to those players that are out there doing that stuff, not to impugn the people who like settlement rp, it's just not my jam), but a lot of it might need a lil dm nudging.

That's a lot, and it's kind of disjointed, so a slightly long tl;dr:

Andunor feels like it doesn't really have any sort of guiding principles from up high. Sometimes it's supposed to be Skullport-esque, but a segment of players want Udos 2- or just 'monsterland,' and the move away from being a fuller part of the rest of the server via outcast changes and pushes against non-fully-confrontational interaction between surface and UD sides makes it feel disconnected from the server at large. It's still fun, and stories still get told, but it feels like it's done in spite of, not because of, anything that makes Andunor much different from Cordor beyond photo-negative elves and too-large models holding too-large weapons.

- I think that writs changed the 3-20 landscape. I'm not speaking against them as I like writs but there is often a bit of bad mixed in with the good.

- A certain amount of this I think is "new and shiny feeling". My first few characters saw the server and other PCs with wonder and enjoyed factions and politics. For my third character I knew the server a bit better and decided to logon to Arelith Discord v2.0 and... I had a less wholesome feeling for the playerbase.

- EE has opened the floodgates for new blood to the server. Before you might have 1 new player to every 10 server vets and generally that new player will adopt the server culture. Now the ratio is different and there is some culture change along with adoption of the preexisting culture. Again this isn't bad, just different.

Overall I think that enough has changed that you could almost view it as a different server than let's say 5 years ago. And the server 5 years ago had a different culture than 10 years ago. Instead of trying to recreate the feeling you had years ago look at things with a fresh perspective. Even recently my character has been involved in intrigue and some very serious RP between the surface and UD, how it played out was just a bit different.

It is very difficult to put forth the effort needed to make the UD feel like the UD should. That's the only opinion I wish to express. I agree with most of what you guys have said so far, I just don't have any input to improve on it.

magistrasa wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 6:30 pm - Somewhere along the way, various powerful groups in the UD decided that they had to band together, no matter what, just to keep the peace in the city and make sure Andunor didn't devour itself. Bound by mutually assured destruction, these groups seemed unwilling to turn on each other, no matter what good reasons came to kill each other. This further limited the (already seemingly slim) possibility of meaningful conflict, as most conflicts that emerge will be aggressively tackled and repressed "for the good of Andunor.

So much this. Conflict is healthy, but Andunor feels very buddy buddy, and if anyone dares disrupt that, there's so much OOC negativity

Eira wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 7:30 pm

magistrasa wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 6:30 pm - Somewhere along the way, various powerful groups in the UD decided that they had to band together, no matter what, just to keep the peace in the city and make sure Andunor didn't devour itself. Bound by mutually assured destruction, these groups seemed unwilling to turn on each other, no matter what good reasons came to kill each other. This further limited the (already seemingly slim) possibility of meaningful conflict, as most conflicts that emerge will be aggressively tackled and repressed "for the good of Andunor.

So much this. Conflict is healthy, but Andunor feels very buddy buddy, and if anyone dares disrupt that, there's so much OOC negativity

This. Getting tells when you try to be confrontational is such a huge distractor. For someone who kind of struggles to play outright mean or evil characters...having someone go "D:" or other stuff like "why are you doing this now?!" in a tell is just... BLEGH, and I've been known to flip on -notells for weeks after it, just to avoid that stuff so I can stay IC...and we all saw that thread like two months ago.

I'll offer some thoughts. My background: I played one longish-term surface character, rolled them and started up a true UD character for the first time a month or two ago. I've made a very active effort to integrate the UD char into city life, and it's the first time I've really experienced the UD for what it is. All of this is biased to my own experience, of course.

- Writs -
Agreed. I've come across players who I've tried to RP with, only to have them send me tells saying "This is just a levelgrind character". I think UD writs need balancing. The convenience of them being centralized should have the penalty of them being worse in some other way, imo.

- Outcasts & Surface Connection -
It absolutely does feel like UD and surface take place in two entirely different worlds, and neither one cares about what's happening in the other. I have never personally seen meaningful non-combat interactions between UD and surface. I've been around long enough to see various conversations about this so the only thing I want to mention is that this is an issue that can not be resolved by one side alone. Both surface and UD culture need to change to become more open to dealing with each other in a non-murder way. By heck I'm going to try, even if it does mean I get killbashed a bunch!

- Conflict & Stagnation -
I have not really experienced any Andunorian history, so I can't speak much on past events, but in my 1.5 months in the UD, I have to say there is an air of stagnation. It feels like Skal insofar as that the experience is all centered around one main settlement, but the big difference is that Skal gameplay tends to have an end point in mind. Romp around Skal, level up, then sail to the mainland. Romp around UD, level up, and then...what?

I think the problem comes from a lack of diversity. The surface has so, SO much more diversity than I've seen in the UD. And it has nothing to do with races. It has to do with two big things:
Firstly, the nature of characters and the culture that those characters are open to and willing to propagate. Andunor is reeeeeaaaaaaal clique-y. I've been able to make a place for myself by literally just barging into conversations and getting involved (thank god I play an ogre) but for a shy character/player it's discouraging. If you want there to be less stagnation, open your friend circle to new parties and make an effort to showcase and highlight new stories + characters.
As for using raw creativity in the fight against stagnation, my best example for this is to just go to the Kudos thread or open the Discord server and look at what kinds of events surface characters are hosting. Weddings, plays, dancing lessons, tournaments, a fancy dress ball, dart competitions, festivals of many and varied kinds, etc. The UD events I've been a part of are just as high in QUALITY, but I've been finding they lack in both diversity and quantity. I was sort of stunned to find out how slowly the general message board in the Hub moves along. In Cordor you see 30 posts a day whizzing by! It's representative of player engagement, and the UD players feel less engaged to me than surfacers do in kickstarting new and interesting RP.

However, thing number two: it also has to do with the devs' design of the world. On the surface you have multiple cities, big geography changes, temples to multiple gods, monasteries both big and small, a dedicated wizard's tower AND a dedicated artificer's tower, and so on and so on. Not all of these things get used all the time, but by virtue of them existing they open up new RP roads. The Underdark has some really cool and unique things but it feels to me like there's a lot less here, and that hurts when it comes to facilitating variety.

So what's the solution? I think the biggest immediate change would come from motivated players doing new things. If you're sick of drow House politics and want something new, then start an entertainment company and start putting on comedy shows. If you're sick of researching devil pacts, then start inventing toys for little goblin children.
I'm of the opinion that the Underdark needs to take itself less seriously. Sure we're monsters and dark elves and bad guys, but we don't need to be doom and gloom and conflict and strife all the time. Laughter and fun and quirks and inventions and juggling and dancing and goofing around in character translates to fun out of character. Andunor is an edgy place and it doesn't need to stop being edgy, but give it a little vivacity and fun! Without new ideas, the stagnation will only get worse.

Andunor always had these factions of individuals that wanted to band together to preserve their ideology of what the city should be.

I have long wished for oversight. I often begged DMs to provide some meaningful narrative to the story, but Andunor is left bereft of purpose other than trade. Trade? bleh. The boringest of roleplay.

I know devs are all tied up in other things, but players it sounds like we have a lot of voices looking for renewal. And, since the comparison was made we have a model: Skal.

Skal was run-grind low-rp for awhile. You had pockets of roleplay but overall it was few and far between. The the Iron Throne plot came and players were forced to choose a side: freedom or servitude under the Iron Throne. This outside faction has relatively neutral aims, but it divided the settlement into choosing a side..and that all went to shit when a third faction arose.

It forced people into conflict and created something that Skal rarely had: incentives and consequence. Andunor is in a similar place where there really isn't a lot of incentive to shake the boat, nor is there much consequence for keeping the status quo.

Thankfully, we can do this on our own - but hopefully a DM reads this thread and gets inspired.

My biggest issue with Andunor and the UD pre-Andunor is that it leaves you with very little room to fail.

If you try to shake things up, or go against the current flow you will almost certainly turn the entire city on you. This is fine on the surface, as you have many settlements and places in between. Not with Andunor, it's greatest perk of pulling all RP to a single place is also it's greatest weakness.

If you are excluded from Andunor for any reason, you have no where to go, no where to role-play and in most cases, you probably will have to vanish for a while.

Though at the same time you can go away for a while in the UD and come back and it's a whole new cast of characters. Cordor shifts rapidly but other surface settlements seem to have characters who stick around for many RL years and never forget a face.

I think it's fair to say in some perspectives that I could check some of these boxes so here's my thoughts.

Writs or not the UD has always been the best place to level from day one of Andunor. I remember years ago forming bands of angry monsters to go chase surfacers out of the various local dungeons. Writs haven't changed that meta.

Andunor needs outcasts back badly. The numbers continue to decline and the city's culture becomes more and more one dimensional because let's face it - monsters are one dimensional in most of the lore. I don't think outcasts should have ever been removed to placate a small but loud group. I think we can see the fallout at this point.

This ties directly to the concern about stagnation. I think it's an oversight to be upset that people will just kill everyone instead of intrigue, but then later say that things are stagnant because nobody is killing anyone. Most of us remember THE Civil War and most probably don't want that again.

Thankfully the things that lead up to that particular war aren't happening now so there's a fair argument to be made it won't be that bad, but I'm not excited to find out either way.

So intrigue is the main option people use, but for people on the outside they might not see it since most intrigue is carried out in private smoke filled basements over cards and whiskey.

I'm going to be obviously biased about this as the new Greyport admin, but I largely agree that the district has been totally left to rot aside a small handful of activity since it began. The place has almost been meme worthy in some aspects. I don't really know why.

Maybe if it had easy access like the other districts it would probably explode in relevence, but sort of like how the devil's table is specifically designed not to function it could very well be that Greyport is meant to be a forgotten hovel for characters that aren't interested in the city's politics at large and similarly suffers.

Historically the Sharps has always been the big mover and shaker in terms of RP whenever someone with a ton of magnetism gets in there. I'm convinced it is server design that the Sharps is structured to easily dominate the other districts.

Either way I'm personally invested to at least try and get Greyport to be a competitive contender to the other districts in time. I've been seeing a *ton* of new fresh faces excited to join the idea.

Like I mentioned under conflict you can't solve stagnation without considerably lengthy intrigue or massive civil war. Given that civil war generally sucks and nobody enjoys it, most parties are willing to not deal with it and look for other ways. For anyone on the outside this easily spells the illusion that nothing is happening.

Andunor has been around long enough by now to more or less see that this is usually the only two options now that outcasts are gone.

Outcasts were the critical third pillar, the big mixup, that gave the UD three dimensions. Humans sometimes dealt with drow, sometimes with beasts, and sometimes with their own. It was extra fun when you couldn't tell if an outcast was a helpful member or a spy. Intrigue was rife, and surface tensions were alive again which made it so that, even if the city was stagnant, you could always play around with the big game between the worlds.

magistrasa wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 6:30 pm So, what do we do in the shadows? What endeavors are there that are worthwhile to pursue? What meaningful interactions with the world are left to us? What do you think changed, and how can we change for the better?

I'm probably again biased in this, being mixed up with probably several large factions and now a district too, but I've been having crazy fun in the UD for months despite it all.

I'm constantly meeting new characters (and lots of new players!) , developing House plots, building crazy wizard projects against Illithid attacks, writing books in the Arcanum, ongoing character development, power struggles, chain breaking plots, on and on.

For a while I was playing full time while out of work for a bit and I literally couldn't fit everything in. The UD feels very alive overall, but there's one critical thing to mention:

Don't rush. Take your time. It takes a long time to slowly get involved and if you aren't patient you might get frustrated and give up just before things start to roll.

Also editing it as a second thought: not all characters hit that sweet spot. I've had two long form characters and a handful in between and during, but not all them really click and it's probably nobody's fault. Maybe move onto another concept if the current is dragging down.

Ultimately the UD could really use outcasts. Badly. I don't know if anyone remembers month one Andunor, but it was not pretty when the outcasts showed up (griefing was rampant). The longer we put it off the nastier it could get when they return.

Aradin wrote:So what's the solution? I think the biggest immediate change would come from motivated players doing new things. If you're sick of drow House politics and want something new, then start an entertainment company and start putting on comedy shows. If you're sick of researching devil pacts, then start inventing toys for little goblin children.
I'm of the opinion that the Underdark needs to take itself less seriously. Sure we're monsters and dark elves and bad guys, but we don't need to be doom and gloom and conflict and strife all the time. Laughter and fun and quirks and inventions and juggling and dancing and goofing around in character translates to fun out of character. Andunor is an edgy place and it doesn't need to stop being edgy, but give it a little vivacity and fun! Without new ideas, the stagnation will only get worse.

I quote this as an outsider looking in on the conversation - but this seems pertinent.

I previously played a female Dwarven Bard in Brogendenstein. The character brief was -- A determination to flesh-out Dwarven / Brogendenstein culture beyond the established Dwarven Miner / Warrior basics -- and make them a People. Poetry, songs, laughter, humour. Fleshing out their traits beyond the established tropes and written lore to make them a Culture.

Perhaps Drow culture (Drow players), as Aradin suggests, need to look deeper into Drow psyche? For every Drow High Priestess or Warrior, there must be a hundred or more Drow Commoners -- consider their viewpoint perhaps, their day-to-day lives and build up, as someone ordinary?

As for Outcasts, Drow *themselves* are Outcasts from greater Elven society and the surface. I would imagine that is added impetus for roleplay / culture development / change. Drow might have unique insight into "what it feels like" to be an outcast, to use power to outcast, and to solve outcast issues. Sounds like a great RP opportunity to me.


-- Tath.

I would challenge there is a significant difference between a human outcasted in recent years or even just months from a crime they themselves committed, and the drow who were outcasted ten thousand years ago after a three thousand year war they didn't participate in.

I would think there isn't a drow alive that really knows the facts of their banishment other than whatever they can find in any remaining history books.

That said - I firmly believe there can be outcast drow for other reasons. Don't worship Lloth? Maybe just pissed off the wrong House? Maybe general discontent with the culture? These concepts are alive and well in Andunor.

I will point out upon reading this, there seems to be a deep sort of all or nothing on the part of the players and the DM Narrative. I suspect to an extent that the nature of the server at large has been forgotten. There are only a handful of DMs to go with literally hundreds of players now. Where some servers have been very heavy on story and seeking narrative from a DM driven campaign, Arelith is a feature that is player driven instead. So I will state that asking the DM Team to fix things isn't probably a direction you'll want to travel for long.

We do in fact see a lot of buddy buddy roleplay, and we also see some very harsh cuts when groups dare to stand out. RPR goes out to those doing their own part to maintain the fiendish nature of the dark, whereas we do not see our rewards going out to the more passive groups as much. This is intentional.

What Andunor in general represents is a collective of a variety of potential influences, ultimately the only reason why it's based on 'trade' as an underlying middle ground is because it is the single neutral driving force. With so many different races and backgrounds all being rolled into one area, it would be difficult to have some other basic form of reason for being that fits with everything. The same should not be said of the now three districts which have these quiet superpowers working around them. There have been religious, tyrannical, and all manner of motivations working in each of the districts. Players making their own laws of the land and working with the mechanics that get introduced or have been there for much of the time.

I agree with the sentiment in general of some stagnation. But there have been some dynamic fights and shifts too. It'll be up to everyone to push and pull things in their own way. This is true of all settlements, factions, and so on. We will mediate, review incidents, and keep a general eye on things as we always have. But if there's something we're not aware of, then do let us know. There aren't a lot of clear right ways to fix these kinds of issues, but we help mediate and sort the wrong ways when they do happen. But what I can say from my own experience is that things do change in time, it's just a matter of if you are part of the driving force behind it or you wait for your opportunity. But nothing really lasts forever.

Skibbles wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 4:17 am

- Outcasts -

Andunor needs outcasts back badly. The numbers continue to decline and the city's culture becomes more and more one dimensional because let's face it - monsters are one dimensional in most of the lore. I don't think outcasts should have ever been removed to placate a small but loud group. I think we can see the fallout at this point.

I’ve been somewhat back for a little bit and I would have to agree with this. I think part of what’s been stagnating things is that a lack of diversity has lead to somewhat one dimensional role play. I remember when the humans ran The Sharps and they made the Devil’s Table a vassal. That made a lot of the Drow angry and it also created a lot of intrigue and conflict.

Shadowy Reality wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 10:51 pm My biggest issue with Andunor and the UD pre-Andunor is that it leaves you with very little room to fail.

If you try to shake things up, or go against the current flow you will almost certainly turn the entire city on you. This is fine on the surface, as you have many settlements and places in between. Not with Andunor, it's greatest perk of pulling all RP to a single place is also it's greatest weakness.

If you are excluded from Andunor for any reason, you have no where to go, no where to role-play and in most cases, you probably will have to vanish for a while.

This is true. I think the reason it is this way now is due to the history of the Underdark on the server and a reluctance to relive some of that from the past. For those who don’t know, there used to be two major settlements in the Underdark. Udos Dro’xun for Drow and Urblexis Grond for everyone else. There were reasons that don’t really need going into for why this was changed.

That, however was also before a lot of the current systems were put into place. Imagine now if a new city was created. This new city could be in the Upperdark as a starting city option for Outcasts. They could also start in Andunor if they wished. In this way, you’d have a place for Outcasts to congregate and have a place to call their own that is separate from the established status quo of Andunor. Furthermore, this would give those who have been exiled from Andunor a place to go to in order to reestablush themselves.

This of course is assuming that Outcasts return to their previous iteration of not being Normal awards.

Skibbles wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 4:17 am

- Updates -

I'm going to be obviously biased about this as the new Greyport admin, but I largely agree that the district has been totally left to rot aside a small handful of activity since it began. The place has almost been meme worthy in some aspects. I don't really know why.

Maybe if it had easy access like the other districts it would probably explode in relevence, but sort of like how the devil's table is specifically designed not to function it could very well be that Greyport is meant to be a forgotten hovel for characters that aren't interested in the city's politics at large and similarly suffers.

Historically the Sharps has always been the big mover and shaker in terms of RP whenever someone with a ton of magnetism gets in there. I'm convinced it is server design that the Sharps is structured to easily dominate the other districts.

Either way I'm personally invested to at least try and get Greyport to be a competitive contender to the other districts in time. I've been seeing a *ton* of new fresh faces excited to join the idea.

That's incredibly insulting to the duergar faction who had a lot of members and activity there up until a month or so ago.

small handful of activity since it began.

Greyport has been around a full year. I specifically included the above quote to account for their work, but my point was in the mechanics surrounding Greyport - not the role play or the factions.

Apologies if this wasn't clarified enough.

Edit

I think I'll expand slightly. My point is entirely mechanical and server design. I hoped that was the implication as I mention all three districts in this frame.

Greyport can be reached through a slum and by a gondola that doesn't even identify the location as Greyport. Until the last election it has consistently had the fewest citizens relative to the other districts. Right now I think it has fifteen or twenty more than the sharps but I haven't checked for a few days but those numbers are likely to plummet and round out in about a week or two.

Therefore my mention of activity is relative to the rest of the city as the two districts fairly consistently dominate the news/trade/tax cycle aside the occasional burst like from the duergar who incidentally I think also made some fine powerplays in the auction room. But again I'm not talking about factions or RP but server design and its direct correlation to district history.

Skibbles wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 6:09 am I would challenge there is a significant difference between a human outcasted in recent years or even just months from a crime they themselves committed, and the drow who were outcasted ten thousand years ago after a three thousand year war they didn't participate in.

I would think there isn't a drow alive that really knows the facts of their banishment other than whatever they can find in any remaining history books.

That said - I firmly believe there can be outcast drow for other reasons. Don't worship Lloth? Maybe just pissed off the wrong House? Maybe general discontent with the culture? These concepts are alive and well in Andunor.

Of course. Drow History is written by the victor. The victor is Drow religion. Drow society has been dominated by the religious state (and its propaganda / agenda) for the ten thousand years since. Those ten thousand years would significantly be imprinted on their mindset -- "We are outcasts. We are cruelly denied our rightful place."

Would that mean they have "sympathy" for Humans? Er. No? Maybe? Maybe it would make it worse for anyone coming to them labelled as "outcast". It certainly wouldn't be a human-rational response, it would be a Drow-rational response -- colourd by ten thousand years of their own history.

Human Outcasts are what - predominantly outcasts from Human society? Humans being human will declare their independence and seek to be elsewhere. They'd have to be half-mad to want to integrate into Drow culture.

Drow Outcasts from Drow society? Well, whilst a significant proportion might be consigned to a sacrificial end - maybe not all? Their might be a significant number, say living in slums, beyond Drow society desperate for salvation to get back *In*. Drow Matriarchs allow them to exist because they are a labour force to be called upon -- and be tempted with reward and salvation -- after walking a long road of proving themselves.

It makes sense to me that their would be a significant Drow Underclass, and that seedy belly of the population offers significant roleplay (origin) opportunities. Surfacer Outcasts are not required for the Underdark to be multi-dimensional.


-- Tath.

Tathkar Eisgrim wrote:
-- Tath.

I snipped to save space =P

I'm not sure what your argument is. That the UD can be multifaceted if only people were more creative with the options available?

Fair but not realistic would be my response. Mostly because it relies on idealism as a solution.

As Drowboy has mentioned in more than one thread surrounding the UD. Not everyone wants to play a drow/monster and people will simply not play in the UD if that's the only option. I bolded this because it is critical.

Underclass, outcast, this or that, at the end of the day you're a drow and it comes with certain fixed paradigms that many players don't care for.

People do play drow with the above concepts, and they do if very well, but it is ultimately drow society and there's no escaping that fact.

As well many players are perfectly happy to play a linear stereotype from their favorite novels/lore books and that's totally okay. Can't have variety without a baseline.

Human outcasts bring in completely different avenues of role play for a litany of reasons that literally can't be found in the underdark otherwise.

*Players that create massive amounts of role play but don't want to be a monster will role characters in the UD. Boom you already have far more then before. This is probably most important.

*Humans have the widest range of deities they are willing to serve. Deities play a huge role in variety, motives, and story. Sure, many drow branch out into some other areas but the exceptions don't make the rule.

*Race relations play an enormous role in the UD. Humans add an entirely new dynamic. Instead of drow/not drow it often becomes drow/human/other. As a result there's more underlying conflict and intrigue and more opportunities for the tipping of power.

*Surface. Outcasts tend to branch out a little more to the surface, tying both worlds together a little bit more and introducing shadow games between more factions.

Personally I think it all comes around to Drowboy's astute point. Without outcasts we have less players. With outcasts we have more players. More players = more everything.

Many of these things simply aren't possible with outcast as a normal reward. Why bother playing the one or two humans in the UD that will get utterly crushed the moment they toe a line? It's a numbers game. I expect that we'll still have very few of them now that it's been fixed for this very reason.

Lastly earlier it was mentioned you were an outsider looking in. I'm not sure if that meant you weren't invested in the idea or haven't played in the underdark before.

Please keep Outcasts as reward.
Andunor needs more drows, duergars, deep gnomes and monsters. Their Numbers grew when humans were locked and made Underdark feel Underdark.
If we unlock Outcasts, you do more damage to others.

Also as dedicated monster player, I say you’re very wrong by saying that monster RP is one dimensional.

Heh. I was trying to make the same point you just did. Drow *are* the baseline.

I was also trying to hint at roleplay avenues without spelling them out.

Goblins, Kobolds, Half-Orcs, are the obvious candidates as the Underdark's "Agents of the Night" on the surface.
I will accept Humans (will play some role) being "Agents of the Sun" in return, back into the Underdark.

I was also suggesting these Agents aren't merely casual spelunkerers -- humans heading into the Underdark might as well be astronauts stepping onto an alien planet. The rules for survival, dominance, culture are that alien.

A human spending months underground in virtual darkness would become delusional, paranoid, risk blindness, etc.

Sure -- Humans visiting underground, I have little issue with. Humans living underground for months on end? I think that is pushing credibility. Play-time niceties aside -- there are numerous options for race in the Underdark.

Skibbles wrote:Lastly earlier it was mentioned you were an outsider looking in. I'm not sure if that meant you weren't invested in the idea or haven't played in the underdark before.

I have not played in the Underdark, to see the current state of affairs. I was therefore trying to suggest my impartiality. I am not yet "involved". I only have my own imagined version of what the Underdark is.


-- Tath.

I said,

The numbers continue to decline and the city's culture becomes more and more one dimensional because let's face it - monsters are one dimensional in most of the lore.

Less players simply means less dimensions. (Also when I say monsters I'm including drow. Pretty sure we're all monster players here.)

It's not a referendum on people's role play. Monsters in forgotten realms simply have a fraction of establishment compared to the races that were meant to be played by people. Each monster gets maybe one or two gods and a vague overview of their society. As the UD loses players this will just become more apparent as a consequence. It's nobody's fault.

Covid may have given Arelith quite an influx across all the servers, but it's very obvious the UD numbers are quickly falling behind and will continue to do so after the slave update.

It's not a zero sum game. Plus one human doesn't mean minus one duergar. If people don't want to play duergar they just won't.

It's difficult for me to accept an argument based solely on how the underdark should "feel." It's too subjective to me. Anyone can define it however they like. From what I've read the underdark has just as many crazy outliers and possibilities as anywhere else in the cosmos and can't possibly have a unifying "feeling."

This is why my opinion is based on number of characters present and the accompanying amount of stories and struggles that comes with more players.

Tathkar Eisgrim wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 9:51 am -- Tath.

Andunor and many surrounding areas are well lit if you haven't been there before. It does have a human npc population after all.

Also if you don't think humans could credibly live in the underdark they may have adapted their own subspecies called Deep Imaskari while living below, and they didn't go crazy in the process.

In a world completely rampant with magic and mythical-figure heroes I don't think subterranean living is going to be such a setback.

Humans can and will go everywhere. Their adaptiveness is a prime factor in their role in Forgotten Realms.

I do accept the idea of players wanting to play characters which have editable character models, for aesthetic reasons (traditionally the role filled by surface Outcasts.) I think that is a credible point to make and that demographic needs to be addressed. It just needs to be done in a sensible and credible way.

If Trade is the intended nexus by which interactions take place, then to me that, again, implies Underdark/Outsider interaction should be transient. Anyone who is not a natural Underdarker should expect to visit and be forced to leave again.

Maybe there should be a magical visitor's pass or something. You get limited-time access to the heart of the Underdark. If you don't hand it back in, pay a fee, you get yoinked to somewhere the Andunorian authorities (the Dev's) find amusing and appropriate.

Skibbles wrote:Andunor and many surrounding areas are well lit if you haven't been there before. It does have a human npc population after all.

Also if you don't think humans could credibly live in the underdark they may have adapted their own subspecies called Deep Imaskari while living below, and they didn't go crazy in the process.

In a world completely rampant with magic and mythical-figure heroes I don't think subterranean living is going to be such a setback.

Humans can and will go everywhere. Their adaptiveness is a prime factor in their role in Forgotten Realms.

I think Deep Imaskari and high magic are the exception rather than the rule. Magic can be used as a tool to argue anything away.

The issue of human presence is more mundane and low fantasy than that. Low fantasy settings are easier to conceptualise and resolve, being the point. Sure humans are adaptive. However, as I was trying to state above: the Underdark is alien and vast. If humans in the Forgotten Realms were so adaptive and the Underdark was desireable, they would have conquered it and the Drow would be on the surface.

The Underdark is an undesireable place to live. Putting it lightly. It is the whole point of why and how the Drow were warped / controlled / subjugated by their Goddess in order to survive there.

It does not wash that humans would want to live several kilometres underground (according to lore).

"geological Fact" wrote:"Beneath our feet there are rich reserves of heat and energy stored in rocks and groundwater. On average, with increasing depth, the temperature increases by around 3°C per 100m."

On the above basis, living underground should be hellish at the depths Drow are supposed to live. Not to mention stone starts to warp and act like a fluid under extreme pressure. Not to mention oxygen or fresh air.

The Underdark is not merely caves. It is The Underdark.


-- Tath.