Loremaster secrets

[Cagus]

Hi,
why doesn't have loremaster secret of scribing the scrolls? (Or maybe even craft wands and brew potions?)

That would make much more sense than ability to gather resources or other things there. He is studying obscure sciences/magic, he is better on using the magic from scrolls than anyone else, shouldn't he be able to also create them (transfer the magic)?

P.S.: I would even gave him the secret to copy the scrolls (or maybe even wands) on the same expense as the normal caster had to pay (gold and exp).

[The Rambling Midget]

There are already feats for those abilities. It'd be redundant to add Loremaster versions that do the same thing.

[NMan7496]

It also wouldn't change the fundamental mechanic that you need spellcasting (or herbalism for some pots) to make them.

[Gouge Away]

Loremasters being able to duplicate scrolls they acquire is a good idea. Make it cost the same XP and gold as scribing, gate it at higher levels and maybe add a small chance of failure destroying both scrolls? Or of course that could be another “secret” they gain.

[Quidix]

Am I interpreting the suggestion correctly that you want loremaster to be able to copy any scroll? That would be a very powerful ability (ie rarity of bless weapon and WoF etc will be a thing of the past).

[AstralUniverse]

Copying scrolls doesnt sound like a bad idea. But it needs to have some sort of risk involved. It should probably cost a lot of money (because of all the 'time' you invest in copying letter by letter, symbol by symbol) and have increasingly larger chance to fail the higher level the scroll is, or something along those lines. The idea that a loremaster can, in theory, copy scrolls isnt terrible.

[Gouge Away]

Yeah- I'd say something like it would either be an option as a "secret" you can take or it would be a loremaster level 10 ability. There should be a chance of failure increasing with scroll level and failing would ruin both scrolls. And you'd need the lore required to use the scroll in the first place plus maybe fluency in draconic. All that plus equal or greater XP and gold cost to a caster scribing... That seems reasonably balanced hassle vs reward?

(Let's also remember scribe scroll is a simple feat any cleric can take, if worried about WoF scrolls being too common...)

[Quidix]

The point is that with one feat, Loremaster will be able to copy all the top scrolls from each class. It won't need cleric levels to make WoF, paladin levels to make Bless Scroll, druid levels to make elemental swarm and wizard levels to make Mords etc. It is the ultimate scribe (this alongside already being a really strong crafter, and gatherer).

That said, if there is a sufficient efficiency penalty (max 50% chance to succeed), then that would seem fair.

[AstralUniverse]

The point is that with one feat, Loremaster will be able to copy all the top scrolls from each class. It won't need cleric levels to make WoF, paladin levels to make Bless Scroll, druid levels to make elemental swarm and wizard levels to make Mords etc. It is the ultimate scribe (this alongside already being a really strong crafter, and gatherer).

That said, if there is a sufficient efficiency penalty (max 50% chance to succeed), then that would seem fair.

I'd say a chance to lose the original scroll is too much but a chance to fail, lose a lot of money and a little bit of exp would be legit. Increasing the higher level the scroll is. I'd say, roughly, 80% success on lvl 1 scrolls and maybe 20% success on level 9 scrolls.

[Cagus]

Well... there are two parts to my post.

1. Primary (important one)
Adding scribe scrolls (craft wand) to secrets as selectable feat. (Secret of writing or wanding)

There are already feats for those abilities. It'd be redundant to add Loremaster versions that do the same thing.

About almost every secret can be said the same thing.
Secret Effects FEAT FOR THOSE ABILITIES
Secret Knowledge of Health +30 HP TOUGHNESS
Secret Knowledge of Inner Strength +2 Will Save IRON WILL
Secret Knowledge of True Stamina +2 Fortitude Save GREAT FORTITUDE
Secret Knowledge of Avoidance +2 Reflex Save LIGHTING REFLEXES
Secret Knowledge of Weapon Trick +1 AB PROWESS
Secret Knowledge of Dodge Trick +1 Dodge AC ARMOUR SKIN (+2)
Secret Knowledge of Warding EPIC ABJURATION AND FOR THE REST
Secret Knowledge of Summoning EPIC SCHOOL IN THE SAME WAY
Secret Knowledge of Scrying
Secret Knowledge of Domination
Secret Knowledge of Evocation
Secret Knowledge of Illusion
Secret Knowledge of Necromancy
Secret Knowledge of Teleportation

By following the same logic, all these secrets would be redundant.

As I understand loremaster's secrets shall help the featstarving character. Same would go with scribing, but at least with scribing it would make more RP sense. As for balance, as those can take the feat anyway, there is no issue.

2. Secondary (I just put it there as an side idea)
...but by reactions I can elaborate it more

As a loremaster, he is gathering and using scrolls, it would make sense, that one can seek the loremaster for learn from this knowledge and him to be able to copy those (even for his own usage).
It works only with scrolls, not wands or potions.

As for your ideas of risk involved, well, it can be put in many ways. The aspects of difficulty, there is
innate level of the scroll
level of loremaster
random roll

I can imagine something like
DC = 2+(ScrollLvl*2) {1st=4; 5th=12;9th=20}
Every loremasters level adds 1 to roll {5level loremaster gets +5 to roll}
Roll 1 = you lose original scroll (plus money and exp for trying)
Roll 20 = you get scroll for free (or alternatively, you pay gp+xp, but make one more scroll)
Success = you get new scroll for the same price (gp+xp) as original class creator)
Failure = you wouldn't create the scroll, still losing the gp+xp

So for most extreme situation (Loremaster 10 making 9 level scroll)
5% losing gp xp original scroll
40% losing gp xp
50% making the scroll for gp xp
5% making additional one
... and yes, with this loremaster lvl 10 could be able to copy scroll lvl 4 and less with only 5% automatic faillure.

Also it can be just locked by 10th level, or a secret.

And as a comment about the rarity, I don't see it as a problem. Will there be a great wave of lvl 10 loremasters? I would expect they would be as rare as cleric with craft wand/scroll. But this would bring more options (for loremaster and his clients).

But again, this was just the the side idea, not the primary one. If possible, comment on the first (easily done).
Thanks for your time.

[The Rambling Midget]

There are already feats for those abilities. It'd be redundant to add Loremaster versions that do the same thing.

About almost every secret can be said the same thing.
Secret Effects FEAT FOR THOSE ABILITIES
Secret Knowledge of Health +30 HP TOUGHNESS
Secret Knowledge of Inner Strength +2 Will Save IRON WILL
Secret Knowledge of True Stamina +2 Fortitude Save GREAT FORTITUDE
Secret Knowledge of Avoidance +2 Reflex Save LIGHTING REFLEXES
Secret Knowledge of Weapon Trick +1 AB PROWESS
Secret Knowledge of Dodge Trick +1 Dodge AC ARMOUR SKIN (+2)
Secret Knowledge of Warding EPIC ABJURATION AND FOR THE REST
Secret Knowledge of Summoning EPIC SCHOOL IN THE SAME WAY
Secret Knowledge of Scrying
Secret Knowledge of Domination
Secret Knowledge of Evocation
Secret Knowledge of Illusion
Secret Knowledge of Necromancy
Secret Knowledge of Teleportation

By following the same logic, all these secrets would be redundant.

No. All of those stack with their counterparts, or allow you to take an epic ability without prerequisites, making them distinct. Magic item crafting requires spellcasting to function, which already allows you to take the feats. Unless you want it to make you scribe two scrolls or make two wands at once, or something, it's redundant. The rest are not. If you gave Loremasters crafting feats without a spellbook, they'd be useless.

You could add them as bonus feats, but there would be no reason to create distinct versions.

[Cagus]

You could add them as bonus feats, but there would be no reason to create distinct versions.

I have never stated they have function differently

If you gave Loremasters crafting feats without a spellbook, they'd be useless.

Same applies for all those school feats already anyway.

Same would go for mundane character with hexblade 3 level dip and taking scribing or brewing general feat.


But hey, if you are saying the loremaster should have scribe scrolls as free bonus feat, I will not argue.

[The Rambling Midget]

Same applies for all those school feats already anyway.

Again, no. You need L9 casting to get ESF and the accompanying bonus abilities. With Loremaster, you could potentially get a Bard or other half caster with ESF abilities. As I said before, they allow you to get things that you couldn't normally get without class restricted prerequisites.

[Gouge Away]

]But again, this was just the the side idea, not the primary one. If possible, comment on the first (easily done).[/b][/size]
Thanks for your time.

Frankly don't have anything to say about the first idea but liked the second. You threw it out there, don't reprimand us for responding.

[Cagus]

If you gave Loremasters crafting feats without a spellbook, they'd be useless.

Same applies for all those school feats already anyway.

Again, no. ...

By this you are effectively saying that those school feats are not useless without spellbook (or that they are useful without spellbook)
You don't seem to be understanding the conversation.

Frankly don't have anything to say about the first idea but liked the second. You threw it out there, don't reprimand us for responding.

I didn't mean you cannot, I just see as preferable to discuss what can be easily implemented (than the second part, which is complicated and the probability of it implemented is much smaller). Go on, comment on both as you wish.

[NMan7496]

If you gave Loremasters crafting feats without a spellbook, they'd be useless.

Same applies for all those school feats already anyway.

Again, no. ...

By this you are effectively saying that those school feats are not useless without spellbook (or that they are useful without spellbook)
You don't seem to be understanding the conversation.

The school feats are absolutely NOT useless without a spellbook because they effect scrolls/wands/pots and still give the powers. A fighter with a bard dip can still take SF and GSF Abjuration to be immune to ILMS and IGMS from shield pots, or take GSF Transmutation for +1 to Zoo Spells and -teleport, or take GSF Illusion for longer durations on an Improved Invisibility wand and -project_image.

Aside from meeting the prerequisite 1st level spellcasting requirement, you don't need a spellbook to make use of the many features of the Spell Focus feats.

However, you do need a spellbook to make use of the item crafting feats (with the exception of the brew pot/herbalism synergy) because you need to be able to cast the spell on the the item to make it. The usefulness of the SF feats go beyond a spellbook, the item creation feats (with the exception of Brew Potion) are so fortunate.

[The Rambling Midget]

If you gave Loremasters crafting feats without a spellbook, they'd be useless.

Same applies for all those school feats already anyway.

Again, no. ...

By this you are effectively saying that those school feats are not useless without spellbook (or that they are useful without spellbook)
You don't seem to be understanding the conversation.

Yes. That is exactly what I said, and exactly what I meant to say. I don't know how you could interpret that as me not understanding.

It's also not the point. All of the loremaster secrets have uses that extend beyond other feats. Item crafting feats wouldn't, even if you added them.

I'm not going to continue indulging you, so I recommend that you do some test builds on PGCC to better understand the class, instead.

[Cagus]

Again, no. ...

By this you are effectively saying that those school feats are not useless without spellbook (or that they are useful without spellbook)
You don't seem to be understanding the conversation.

The school feats are absolutely NOT useless without a spellbook because they effect scrolls/wands/pots and still give the powers. A fighter with a bard dip

1. The school feats CANNOT BE OBTAINED without a spellbook; fighter with a bard dip has spellbook (he gets it at 1st level of bard)
2. having spellbook = having 1 level of any caster class = prereq for SF = prereq for scribe/brew
3. by 'school feats' are meant the bonus feats of loremaster(secrets) connected to the school utility/ability. Noone is speaking about SF and GSF in other meaning, that they are prereq for a lot of loremaster feats, which would not be in discourse of him having scribing (which has the same prereq).

[The Rambling Midget]

I apparently misread your double-negative.

But you redacted my quote and misrepresented its content, so you're still wrong. Half-casters have spellbooks.

[Cagus]

...
I'm not going to continue indulging you, so I recommend that you do some test builds on PGCC to better understand the class, instead.

I did research before I opened this topic, but you obviously haven't.
There is no argument against what I am proposing in the first post, which make sense, and not dnd materials, not the game and not you gave one, which can be applied.

Argument for what I am saying is:
There are classes which have bonus feats. Those could be from general feats or special class feats. (Fighter - specialization).
There are classes which are given general feats for free (wizard - scribe scroll).
There is secret in dnd loremaster, which is described "Any one feat".

You have given no argument at all, why Primary cannot apply to loremaster.

So I recommend you to read about the class first. Then construct your arguments about the topic. Not just description of how it works now, which we can read ourselves.

But you redacted my quote and misrepresented its content, so you're still wrong. Half-casters have spellbooks.

I omitted rest of the quote, because it had nothing to do with the topic and there is no reason to have paragraphs of off topic text diluting the the important stuff. If you don't remember what you said, click on the quote, it will take you to your post.

And you seem to be confused again, because that's exactly what I am saying in one post above (about the spellbooks).

And that is all from me.

[The Rambling Midget]

If you wanted magical item creation feats available as a plain bonus feat and not a secret, provided the prerequisites of having a spellbook were met, you should've said that. That would've made sense. But you didn't.

That's why I corrected you.