One-way Skal

Feedback relating to the other areas of Arelith, also includes old topics.


Moderators: Active Admins, Forum Moderators, Active DMs

User avatar
matheusgraef
Posts: 66
Joined: Wed May 23, 2018 7:41 pm

One-way Skal

Post by matheusgraef »

Please read the entire thread before you post.
OP is obsolete at this point since everything was debated, and the discussion in the thread boiled down to these solutions:

- Epics can't own property.
- Yoinking doesn't work in Skal.


Fixes most problems, culls the epic population.

You're welcome to read the OP though but it's obsolete at this point.
---

Irongron and the team have been very clear about their views on Skal. It is a lowbie-mid teens area and epics have no place there. After multiple failed DM reminders about this, the team decided to mark epics with a MoD and monitor them. Cool.

The way things are, however, epic PCs will continue to hang out and eventually interfere - whether purposefully or not - with the intended dynamic of Skal.

Here's my suggestion on how to fix this:

Make Skal ONE-WAY ONLY: Off the island, during the summer thaw. Make the island inaccessible by default, unless by DM event request/application. To iterate:

By default, Arelithians shouldn't get to Skal at all - why? Because thematically, there's no immediate reason to go there. It's a frigid dump of a land with a shoddy village. It's a worthless hole, a meager frontierland and there's way more interesting places for epic adventurers to be hanging out in. Of course there are exceptions to the norm. So...

Make it special.

If you want to go there with your epic character or your faction, much like raiding, you must request the approval of the DM team via the forums. The Thane's Kuldarn goes to Skal to enlist their dwarves, the Banites go to spread the word of the Black Hand, a trading company goes to trade - all those examples are super cool. But you can only go once per season, with intent.

That way, the team could calibrate how frequent/sporadic they want these interactions to be, and it'd be a lot more special to get visitors from distant realms. Plus, the team would have total control and be SURE that epics wouldn't be messing around in Skal.

Make it one way only. Mechanically, the great thaw should only function for Skal natives to get off the island.

This logic is already in place in Arelith.

There's certain things you already can't do in-game without prior DM approval. Raiding, for example, requires the approval of the DM team and supervision. Why? The team knows unsupervised raiding is extremely likely to swerve from the intended design philosophy, break rules, or would be grounds to spark the attention of the NPC population in the first place.

And if the team knows Epic interaction in Skal is extremely likely to swerve from the intended design philosophy, break rules, or would be grounds to spark the attention of the NPC population in the first place... I feel like these expeditions to Skal should be treated a lot like raiding.

This would be an extra step to ensure the Epic interactions that happen in Skal come from a place of good will.

Finally, I'm not saying your Epic character in Skal is a poopoo baby and you're a terrible person for playing them. People have praised certain Epics in Skal and you, reader, might very well be one of them. However, let us not forget:

By design, Skal is all about Skal.

Hag-tag comradery, volatile rivalries and all the haphazard moments of the lowbie adventures in an inhospitable frontierland. When you have an Epic PC who owns shops, patronizes, and says "This is okay, this is not okay" they're swerving/interfering. No wonder the team chose to mark them with MoDs.

Let the youngsters live their rascal years, let them create their unlikely gangs, let them be the judges of who are their friends and foes - that's what I think. The most fun I've had in Skal is when epics weren't around. When that level 12 dwarf was the one crafting 'em guns, when the initiate alchemists got together to make items, when there's rumors of a wicked necromancer! And it's literally just a level 7 dude.

Thoughts?
Last edited by matheusgraef on Thu Oct 22, 2020 2:05 pm, edited 5 times in total.
User avatar
Morgy
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Posts: 720
Joined: Sun Mar 31, 2019 3:08 pm

Re: One-way Skal

Post by Morgy »

I do think Skal-RP prospers without epics hanging around, directly or indirectly stifling developing stories.. But I'm wary of cutting it off from the rest of the server too much, unless we wish to create two separate communities.
User avatar
The Rambling Midget
Arelith Supporter
Arelith Supporter
Posts: 3295
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 2:02 am
Location: Wandering Aimlessly in the Wiki

Re: One-way Skal

Post by The Rambling Midget »

On the one hand, I agree with the sentiment behind this, because some players have neither shame nor restraint, and can't seem to stop themselves from playing god when there's an island of lowbies out there that's ripe for domination. On the other hand, my own Skal starters have had personal RP reasons to return and revisit, which would be a waste of time for a DM to oversee, and likely impossible to arrange due to RL timing.

Morgy also brings up a good point about dividing the community. It's happened before between Surface and UD, with catastrophic results.

Additional "incentives" to remain uninvolved may be warranted, but I feel like complete isolation is a step too far, before other options have been explored.
The Beginner's Guide to Factions
New to Arelith? Read this!
This is not a single player game. -Mithreas
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. -Winston Churchill
User avatar
matheusgraef
Posts: 66
Joined: Wed May 23, 2018 7:41 pm

Re: One-way Skal

Post by matheusgraef »

The Rambling Midget wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 6:20 pm On the one hand, I agree with the sentiment behind this, because some players have neither shame nor restraint, and can't seem to stop themselves from playing god when there's an island of lowbies out there that's ripe for domination. On the other hand, my own Skal starters have had personal RP reasons to return and revisit, which would be a waste of time for a DM to oversee, and likely impossible to arrange due to RL timing.

Morgy also brings up a good point about dividing the community. It's happened before between Surface and UD, with catastrophic results.

Additional "incentives" to remain uninvolved may be warranted, but I feel like complete isolation is a step too far, before other options have been explored.
I'd love to hear those incentives - and this really is a thread to encourage such ideas.
AstralUniverse
Posts: 3117
Joined: Sun Dec 15, 2019 2:54 pm

Re: One-way Skal

Post by AstralUniverse »

Currently most of the shops in Skal are owned by characters above Skal level and dont live in Skal. Just saying.
KriegEternal wrote:

Their really missing mords and some minor flavor things.

User avatar
CorsicanDoge
Posts: 89
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2020 2:54 am

Re: One-way Skal

Post by CorsicanDoge »

AstralUniverse wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 6:27 pm Currently most of the shops in Skal are owned by characters above Skal level and dont live in Skal. Just saying.
Yeah there's a lot of good money bringing stuff in from out of Skal. I personally see Skal traders buy up UD's addy and bring it over.
AstralUniverse
Posts: 3117
Joined: Sun Dec 15, 2019 2:54 pm

Re: One-way Skal

Post by AstralUniverse »

A little rant here...

The shops in Skal are just awful. Half of the time they are owned by new players who dont really have a clue what to sell and you see shield potions sold for hundreds of coins right next to a scribe that sells them as lvl 1 scrolls for 50 gold. The other half of the time I see shops full of runic stuff, lvl 16+ gear and other expensive stuff that's mostly irrelevant to the people leveling in Skal. I have no expectations from the shops in Skal anymore and I couldnt agree more that Skal should be much harder and inconvenient to get to as high level characters.

I still disagree with the policy of MoD if you stay past lvl 16 and I think it really did absolutely nothing one way or another to the environment of Skal. If anything, it just made things more dull, and turned half of the shops and houses to basically NPC cosmetic properties since their owner is never around.

Rant over.
KriegEternal wrote:

Their really missing mords and some minor flavor things.

User avatar
Security_Blanket
Posts: 469
Joined: Sat Sep 26, 2020 8:45 pm

Re: One-way Skal

Post by Security_Blanket »

AstralUniverse wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 6:38 pm The shops in Skal are just awful. Half of the time they are owned by new players who dont really have a clue what to sell and you see shield potions sold for hundreds of coins right next to a scribe that sells them as lvl 1 scrolls for 50 gold. The other half of the time I see shops full of runic stuff, lvl 16+ gear and other expensive stuff that's mostly irrelevant to the people leveling in Skal.
They come in all shapes and sizes, but you certainly can make a lot of money in Skal if you know what to sell. Consider all the new characters that flow in, how many of them are going to get to level 10 then delete and remake. How many of these failed characters still went to the store to buy a jewelry box, or a scroll case? Or how about a summoning stream book sold at double the price. Skal is THE place to own a shop, all the more reason it should be harder to get there and epics not be allowed to linger.

Draco Deleteur
Dreadlord Lucius Blackhand - "All is as Bane wills it."

Aleilsum Ellrum
Arelith Gold Supporter
Arelith Gold Supporter
Posts: 49
Joined: Sun Jul 14, 2019 4:32 pm

Re: One-way Skal

Post by Aleilsum Ellrum »

Agreed about the insane prices on Skal that are deeply offputting for new players.

I think simple jewelry boxes should be available like mining bags, maybe with a limit of 20 - 30 items. Maybe scroll cases too with a max of 20 scrolls for a few hundred gold each. The player-made ones are far superior but they often just aren't in the shops.

Skal shops shouldn't be filled with high level stuff at vastly inflated prices though.
User avatar
Royal Blood
Posts: 449
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:12 am

Re: One-way Skal

Post by Royal Blood »

So, I would say High Levels ought to be able to stay for the following reasons.

1: Recently there was a PVP troll in town. No RP abusive pvp. No one could kill him because everyone is low level. The entire skal area was as this guy's mercy. It can be so hard to get a DM and often times the damage is done by the time they arrive etc.

A few high-levels sort of kept the peace in town and could handled this stuff. Without it there is no defence

I want to note also the PVPer wasn't a high level. So a level cap would not have stopped him.

2: RP

There is a lot of RP opportunity and frankly the fact Skal is remote and in the middle of nowhere is nice. It's a place to retreat and secretive and I think that's neat also just skal plots being cutt off etc.

3: Shops

The shops suck. Its either full of junk or high level stuff no in-between
I am not on a team.
I do not win, I do not lose.
I tell a story, and when I'm lucky,
Play a part in the story you tell too.
Hobojoe
Posts: 37
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2018 10:24 am

Re: One-way Skal

Post by Hobojoe »

matheusgraef wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 6:01 pm
Make it special.

If you want to go there with your epic character or your faction, much like raiding, you must request the approval of the DM team via the forums. The Thane's Kuldarn goes to Skal to enlist their dwarves, the Banites go to spread the word of the Black Hand, a trading company goes to trade - all those examples are super cool. But you can only go once per season, with intent.

That way, the team could calibrate how frequent/sporadic they want these interactions to be, and it'd be a lot more special to get visitors from distant realms. Plus, the team would have total control and be SURE that epics wouldn't be messing around in Skal.

Make it one way only. Mechanically, the great thaw should only function for Skal natives to get off the island
Fully agree with this. Skal is meant to be a frigid wasteland that's a thousand leagues from anywhere you'd want to be, individuals shouldn't be sailing there on a whim. A visit from the mainland should be impactful and rare, a desire to return only found in the most masochistic of travelers - right now though, characters seem to go there in the summer to cool off and tell the latest string of low level characters about their great memories of the place.

As for an incentive to leave, bar characters who've hit epic levels from owning property/stores in the village, explain it away with a paranoid Hovding resenting powerful individuals becoming to comfortable, big fish in a small pond and all that. They can always up sticks to Dunmarle castle and breath some life into that location if leaving entirely doesn't suit.
Royal Blood wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 9:46 pm So, I would say High Levels ought to be able to stay for the following reasons....

3: Shops

The shops suck. Its either full of junk or high level stuff no in-between
Yeah a lot of the shops suck, sadly most of them ARE owned by high level characters though.
Thrar of the Winterwood
Hinty
Posts: 328
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2018 1:03 am

Re: One-way Skal

Post by Hinty »

Shops are a serious issue.

For about a year IG now, (probably longer but I wasn't there to see it) one shop in Skal has been owned by a character that I have not seen on the island once. The shops contents has not changed once in all that time as far as I can tell, nothing new put in, nothing bought and thus gone.

The only trace I've seen of the owner in all that time was a post on the message board just after the thaw recruiting for a faction on the main island.

0 interaction with the community. 0 Items of any real value on sale. 1 highly sought after shop unavailable for the people stuck there.

This could, of course, be a bigger issue, since there were a number of other shops that appeared to have utterly static inventories for a similar length of time whose owners I have not seen anything of either.


I have no issue with people from the mainland owning shops on Skal per say. They have to visit the shops fairly often to maintain ownership after all, but there should be some sort of requirement, if you own a shop on Skal your visits to maintain it should include a tenday or two hanging out on the village interacting with the adventurers, and seriously. If a shop goes 6 months without selling a single item, perhaps it should become available. A shop that sells nothing, makes no taxes for the settlement.
Gouge Away
Posts: 425
Joined: Fri May 24, 2019 4:38 am

Re: One-way Skal

Post by Gouge Away »

In the spirit of encouraging low level play and discouraging epic involvement what if there was no permanent housing. Allow temporary room rentals (1 RL day) for meetings or or whatever to support the idea that you're a temporary lodger if you're there. But in return give everyone 12 item storage at the bank that expires at level 16.

Likewise, take away the 7 day shops but add a few more temporary shops.

I dunno, just throwing ideas around, I'm sure they'll be vehemently opposed but I don't think permanent shops and permanent residences are doing anyone any favors if this is supposed to be a temporary stop on your way to "real" Arelith.
User avatar
matheusgraef
Posts: 66
Joined: Wed May 23, 2018 7:41 pm

Re: One-way Skal

Post by matheusgraef »

Hobojoe wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 9:59 pm As for an incentive to leave, bar characters who've hit epic levels from owning property/stores in the village, explain it away with a paranoid Hovding resenting powerful individuals becoming to comfortable, big fish in a small pond and all that. They can always up sticks to Dunmarle castle and breath some life into that location if leaving entirely doesn't suit.
Love this idea. This by itself is a great way to discourage epics from sticking around.
User avatar
Ork
Arelith Gold Supporter
Arelith Gold Supporter
Posts: 2622
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2014 8:30 pm

Re: One-way Skal

Post by Ork »

matheusgraef wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 1:35 am
Hobojoe wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 9:59 pm As for an incentive to leave, bar characters who've hit epic levels from owning property/stores in the village, explain it away with a paranoid Hovding resenting powerful individuals becoming to comfortable, big fish in a small pond and all that. They can always up sticks to Dunmarle castle and breath some life into that location if leaving entirely doesn't suit.
Love this idea. This by itself is a great way to discourage epics from sticking around.
I do think this is a lighter touch, and a good starting place.

Personally, I always felt like Skal would be a great place to tell a NPC-driven story where at the completion of all the "quests" you were sent off, or conscripted or something. For all the horridness that was pit town- having a commonality of waking up from an illithid pod made it easy to share a story with others. While getting to Skal might be varied, it'd be cool to leave with something shared between all skaljardr.
User avatar
DM Rex
Posts: 806
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2020 11:13 pm

Re: One-way Skal

Post by DM Rex »

As an aside, we do know about the troll. And it's always the same person with clearly nothing better to do.
We are working on a solution, let that not be a worry in this feedback.
User avatar
Ebonstar
Posts: 1471
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 2:17 pm
Location: you may not see me but i see you

Re: One-way Skal

Post by Ebonstar »

if you want level 15s to leave skal, make it a writ that gives them ice breaker access to deliver a document to cordor

dont make it a big xp writ but a big money writ, and once they leave they cant go back
Yes I can sign
User avatar
Kuma
Arelith Supporter
Arelith Supporter
Posts: 2254
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2014 5:05 pm
Location: Melbourne

Re: One-way Skal

Post by Kuma »

i'm wary of cutting off the possibility of Skal-Arelith trade since there's only so many avenues for actually worthwhile smuggling RP that isn't just aesthetic and it's incredibly thematic, particularly since we have such robust (and soon to be improved) sailing mechanics.

House Freth
House Claddath

Irongron wrote:

To step beyond any threshold, having left that place richer than one found it, is the finest legacy anyone can have.

Irongron wrote:

With a value of 100+ one can milk chickens

Hinty
Posts: 328
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2018 1:03 am

Re: One-way Skal

Post by Hinty »

There is still room for running trade to Skal even if you cut off the shops for people over leveled. You could let high levels still claim the temporary shop carts to sell their things there, this would encourage interaction too, rather than sailing to Skal, dumping stuff in a shop then sailing back again every few days.

I would also suggest the cut off be level 17 or 18, to give people time to wrap things up, and or not punish people who level up but still have to wait a while for the ice to thaw so they can leave.
AstralUniverse
Posts: 3117
Joined: Sun Dec 15, 2019 2:54 pm

Re: One-way Skal

Post by AstralUniverse »

Kuma wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 5:32 am i'm wary of cutting off the possibility of Skal-Arelith trade since there's only so many avenues for actually worthwhile smuggling RP that isn't just aesthetic and it's incredibly thematic, particularly since we have such robust (and soon to be improved) sailing mechanics.
Cant eat the cake and leave it whole.

On one hand, the team begins a policy that forces people to leave Skal, but on the other hand, these people are not forced to give up their property in Skal. So all the large houses and shops are owned by people You. Never. See. In. Skal.

What good are these shops if their owners are not around to RP with and the content of the shop is selling stuff that's mostly irrelevant to anyone except other epics who visit skal for shopping because they know they arent going to see low lvl stuff in those shops and this just encourages more epic lvl presence in Skal anyway.

This policy is really terrible in that it's half-hearted and is bad on both ends because of it.
-it does not reduce epic lvl presence in skal
-it does reduce PC trade opportunities.

I beg the team. please go all-in or all-out in this.
KriegEternal wrote:

Their really missing mords and some minor flavor things.

User avatar
Kuma
Arelith Supporter
Arelith Supporter
Posts: 2254
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2014 5:05 pm
Location: Melbourne

Re: One-way Skal

Post by Kuma »

AstralUniverse wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:32 am[snip]
Smuggling IN PERSON, not absentee off-island second home timeshares, is what I'm advocating for. Absolutely kick them off the island. Hell, have a level max on quarters.

Like, Arelith-based traders using temp shops or whatever is great and good and fine and fun. But just owning a stall there is a bit much.

House Freth
House Claddath

Irongron wrote:

To step beyond any threshold, having left that place richer than one found it, is the finest legacy anyone can have.

Irongron wrote:

With a value of 100+ one can milk chickens

Hobojoe
Posts: 37
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2018 10:24 am

Re: One-way Skal

Post by Hobojoe »

Another potential fix would be to block epic level conjurers from being able to summon people to the island, make the only viable way to access Skal be via that rather tedious boat trip. Would potentially cut down on the number of absentee shop owners and even force them to lose ownership when winter comes, unless they stay on the isle.

I've no doubt people keep alts with the ability to summon on the isle in order to guarantee a quick trip whenever they need, this has also resulted in epic level swat teams teleporting to the island whenever something interesting is going down, another mood killer that stops the people of Skaljard needing to band together and come up with their own solution.
Thrar of the Winterwood
User avatar
Kenji
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Posts: 1657
Joined: Mon May 14, 2018 9:14 am
Location: Mechanics Dungeon

Re: One-way Skal

Post by Kenji »

Thoughts on these?

Skal:
  • Disable -yoink from anywhere but Skal. A lvl21 conjurer can still -yoink someone from Skaljard to Dunmarle, but they can't -yoink anyone from Sibayad to Skal.
  • Boat travel to Skal limited to folks under lvl18, or if a lvl19+ is detected on the boat during the travel to Skal, it'll continue to waste the travel time with the message saying "the harsh storms prevent passage to Skal". This way, no last-minute -yoink a lvl30 WM onto the boat and still gets to Skal.
Skaljard:
  • Max level 18 to own a quarter or a shoppe, they can no longer refresh timer once they reach level 19, so they have 1 week RL time to move out.
Dunmarle:
  • No level requirement to own a quarter or a shoppe (MoD still applies to any high level characters)
Last edited by Kenji on Mon Oct 12, 2020 10:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

For you, the day Kenji overhauled your class was the most important day of your life.
But for me, it was Tuesday. :face_with_monocle: To-do list

User avatar
Kuma
Arelith Supporter
Arelith Supporter
Posts: 2254
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2014 5:05 pm
Location: Melbourne

Re: One-way Skal

Post by Kuma »

Kenji wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:54 amBoat travel to Skal limited to folks under lvl18, or if a lvl19+ is detected on the boat during the travel to Skal, it'll continue to waste the travel time with the message saying "the harsh storms prevent passage to Skal". This way, no last-minute -yoink a lvl30 WM onto the boat and still gets to Skal.
this seems extreme and basically prevents people from arelith EVER going there. i think preventing inbound yoinks at the Surface-side "docks" area and requiring boats to be used is Fine and will help cut it down. And just have level caps on property on the isle itself.

House Freth
House Claddath

Irongron wrote:

To step beyond any threshold, having left that place richer than one found it, is the finest legacy anyone can have.

Irongron wrote:

With a value of 100+ one can milk chickens

User avatar
Kenji
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Posts: 1657
Joined: Mon May 14, 2018 9:14 am
Location: Mechanics Dungeon

Re: One-way Skal

Post by Kenji »

Fair, I do recall some sweet RP I had with the visiting scholars from the Arcane Tower.

Though the -yoink from Sibayad to Skal should still be disabled.

For you, the day Kenji overhauled your class was the most important day of your life.
But for me, it was Tuesday. :face_with_monocle: To-do list

Post Reply