Forum: Yondalla/Dhalla

[SteelsSweets]

Since she's still on the forum, can we please have her back?

*sad puppy face*

http://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Yondalla

[Drowboy]

Seems more like a "wiki editors and devs aren't the same people" problem?

[Gouge Away]

I understand the original reason for losing the deity, breaking 3e lore, but TBH it was a popular deity with players and if lore can be broken with Firblogs maybe allowing Dallah worship isn't the end of the world.

If nothing else it was an option for CG hin divine worshippers which are weirdly not very well supported though as a mischievous race I think they ought to be. I think Tymora is the only option now. You can't even be a CG cleric of Brandobaris though that seems to be a perfect fit to me.

[DM Rex]

We'll see about getting the wiki updated.

[mjones3]

Not sure what needs to be updated but if you let me know I can fix it. I'm guessing remove the bits on Dhalla since its not currently an option in game?

[SteelsSweets]

Ooooooor add her back IG for reasons mentioned a few posts up?

[Itikar]

I have never really understood the reason for removing these deities. I think it was more of a loss than a gain, even though, it was a fair point that they did not really have much lore to support their presence in the setting.

But since they had been there before, and they are not incompatible either, I still think they were better to be kept than removed.

[AnselHoenheim]

I still don't understand, even today, why Dallah Thaun was removed, if even DMs were encouraging roleplay based on that deity, if even DMs were producing events around Dallah Thaun, I know it might not be fitting for the lore, but at this point, in Arelith, Dallah Thaun has already produced a base of roleplay that is hard to not justify at this point.

[Nitro]

I'm gonna be cheeky and quote myself from last time this topic popped up:

You can keep RP'ing that you worship Dallah Thaun all you want, you just have to acknowledge OOC'ly that you're not worshipping Dallah but some other deity that is either masquerading as Dallah, or that you are worshipping an aspect of as Dallah and then select that deity in the selection to mark down what actually existing deity your character gives their praise to. Because otherwise you wouldn't be getting squat, since worshipping something that doesn't exist doesn't grant any powers or boons.

The issue with custom deities is that new players who might not be well versed in the lore go in thinking on a player level that they are worshipping a legitimate deity, which they are in fact not. In the best case they're a well meaning cultist of a likeminded god who doesn't mind the extra attention, in the worst case they are actively being deceived into giving their worship to some trickster god masquerading as the nonexistent deity they give their faith to, in this case, an aspect of Yondalla under another name.

[Flower Power]

I'm just gonna go out there and say the same thing I do every time someone talks about adding non-canon deities back into the game:

Speaking as one of the cocreators of Meles (Kuma and I are deeply sorry), non-canon gods don't add anything narratively to the setting that cannot be created using a canon deity - or a unique interpretation of a canon deity (heresies are a thing.)

You want a deity that represents the larcenous and mischievous nature of the halflings? Just pick Brandobaris. He's better written, he has more lore, and he has a whole host of stories and legends associated with him already. You can play him off in basically any way you want: a merry prankster, an individual who defends and advances the cause of halfling society using his wits, a far-too-nosy adventurer, a larcenous thief - he's already a one-size fits all hin mischief machine, and between him and other deities there's not really room or need for Dallah in the pantheon.

[Xerah]

Non-canon deities aren't necessary. If you want to worship a non-support deity, then you can do as the rules state: Pick one that is close and RP it. In the case of Dallah, you are literally worshiping Yondalla anyway, which means it's the best-case scenario where this rule is appropriate.

I prefer consistency (no, Firblogs is not an argument for the contrary) so I'd rather focus on real canon deities.

[Red Ropes]

Sounds like someone can make a cult where Yondalla has subsumed Brandobaris into her divinity and now she's both gods - and be cool heretics.

[Gouge Away]

Maybe Dallah Thaun could be re-introduced as a heresy?

[Xerah]

There's nothing to support that either.

It's no different than me creating a character that worships Gods from Eberron or Golarion. If you want to roleplay that out in character, go for it, but you should be looked at with a large amount of skepticism.

[Gouge Away]

Speaking frankly the problem I have with the loss of Thaun isn’t the deity herself but it’s taking away the rebellious and mischievous edge that ought to be a hallmark of lightfoot halfling society. I think the place has doubled down on “lawful nice” since the removal and has become one of the least tolerant spots for minor rulebreaking on the server and where even benevolent rebelliousness isn’t much tolerated. Dallah RP used to give the race a cool secret and even dangerous edge and losing it may be consistent with lore on paper but it did Bendir no favors culturally.

A strong CG Dallah contingent used to be a great counter to the LG hawk'in and nothing else really seems to work to replace it. Even the Bart Simpson of deities, Brandobaris, doesn’t support CG, which seems a misfire on the part of lore to me as that should be the missing piece of the puzzle but it doesn’t seem to work— I’d honestly just be happy if CG Brando clerics were allowed. Tymora is ostensibly a hin supporting deity but something about sharing her with humans seems to turn hin players off (or gives them a reason to exclude a worshipper as "not one of us") and maybe if she was also added to the hin deities list that would nudge minds in her favor too. But even then I haven't seen anything in either of those options that inspires players the way Thaun did.

[mjones3]

I'd say for now just use the guidelines listed here on the wiki. I don't know the lore behind Dhalla but if Brandyboi suites domains and such choose him as a substitute and say you are worshiping Dhalla.

http://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Deity#Available_Deities

[Xerah]

I can't see how you can correlate the removal of a deity with a fundamental RP change. That's an extreme stretch.

Alignment restrictions only matter on divine classes, and clerics are pretty rare as is. Also, FS are an option that doesn't require alignment. Tymora should be accepted just as well as any other halfling deity (just weird stubbornness on players that won't) and I can really put it in two different places.

[Gouge Away]

I can't see how you can correlate the removal of a deity with a fundamental RP change. That's an extreme stretch.

I am trying not to argue with you but please play fair. Removing a popular deity is the definition of an extreme RP change.

[Xerah]

It's not extreme at all. You select Yondalla (or someone else if you need to meet alignment restrictions) and RP it just as you did before.

I have explained my position at this point, so I am disengaging from this conversation.

[Queen Titania]

Speaking frankly the problem I have with the loss of Thaun isn’t the deity herself but it’s taking away the rebellious and mischievous edge that ought to be a hallmark of lightfoot halfling society. I think the place has doubled down on “lawful nice” since the removal and has become one of the least tolerant spots for minor rulebreaking on the server and where even benevolent rebelliousness isn’t much tolerated. Dallah RP used to give the race a cool secret and even dangerous edge and losing it may be consistent with lore on paper but it did Bendir no favors culturally.

A strong CG Dallah contingent used to be a great counter to the LG hawk'in and nothing else really seems to work to replace it. Even the Bart Simpson of deities, Brandobaris, doesn’t support CG, which seems a misfire on the part of lore to me as that should be the missing piece of the puzzle but it doesn’t seem to work— I’d honestly just be happy if CG Brando clerics were allowed. Tymora is ostensibly a hin supporting deity but something about sharing her with humans seems to turn hin players off (or gives them a reason to exclude a worshipper as "not one of us") and maybe if she was also added to the hin deities list that would nudge minds in her favor too. But even then I haven't seen anything in either of those options that inspires players the way Thaun did.

Brandobaris covers the rebellious and mischevious edge in my opinon. Dallah Thaun never covered that really, and the religion aspect isn't required for it at all. I would recommend clerics wanting the chaotic personality to look at CN instead, and you can always do a religious character that isn't a divine class but is very faithful. I'd argue CN would be a better counter to LG anyway, as you have conflict on more than one edge of alignment.

But I would strongly agree with Xerah, removing the deity does not equate with an extreme RP change, nothing stops a player from creating the personality that they want.

[Hinty]

I would also note that there is no "rebellious and mischievous edge" to halfling society. Halfling society is very different from others, it is fluid, people rarely live in one village all their life, instead moving between settlements over the decades as they grow restless for new sights and new friends. People change roles and duties on a whim, the guy who was Mayor last week might be the Blacksmith this week because he just felt like a change, BUT, everyone plays their part, it is not 100% "Oh I feel like doing that so I will." they gravitate towards the roles that the community has need of. If the only vacancy is for a carpenter, and a newly arrived halfling does not want to do that (and can't find another thing the village needs), they will likely move on to the next village.

You work together. You help the village. You contribute to the community. If you can't do that, you are politely ignored until you get the hint and move on. If you don't you will likely be asked point blank.

Halflings like games, and they have a slight soft spot for pranksters, but you should note that the only prankster in the Halfling pantheon is Brandobaris, whom reserves his pranks for enemies. The only kind of mischievousness halfling communities tolerate is that aimed at those who deserve it. That is an art form that they will greatly respect. If you want a race of mischievous pranksters who run around playing japes and tricks on everyone, you want Gnomes. Almost every deity in their pantheon seems to have some kind of prank they favour.

[Kalgoon]

Hin are Amish, not Kender.