Henchmen restriction.

[chris a gogo]

This is a personal thing but after having invested into the leadership skill with epic feats an maxed ranks and gear im extremely disappointed that my character that only uses henchmen for adventuring can no longer do so.

Will there be free relevels offered to recover the now wasted feats and skill choice?

[Drowboy]

Leadership helps when traveling with players, who are always going to be better than henches.

[Aren]

Leadership helps when traveling with players, who are always going to be better than henches.

It only helps marginally however and currently does not justify the skill point investment. And those points could have been spent on something entirely more useful for a level 30 character - who planned around having access to level 30 henchmen.

I have raised these issues with Bat Country, and I am very confident they will find some elegant solution.

[Baron Saturday]

What if henchmen were hired for a set time period (say, 2 rl hours), at the end of which (or if killed) they leave and can't be rehired by the same character for some number of rl hours?

[Aren]

My take: at 30, with enough leadership, you got access to a commanding officer of a mercenary band, who for a tidy sum, would offer you the loyalty of one of his non-descript soldiers (henchmen), that would stay with you until death, logging off or dismissal.
That way, there would be little reason for players to be hogging the henchmen.

[Drowboy]

Non-unique almost but not quite player-level henchmen for high leadership ranks seems like a fine enough compromise.

[Ork]

It sounds like this change is aimed at limiting finite resources, and hopefully those resources will increase as time goes on.

[Security_Blanket]

I made this suggestion in the other thread about henchmen, something like this could solve our henchmen problem. Personally speaking, I do not care about the henchmen's personal backstory and motivations. I can't RP the henchmen nor do I feel I should make the attempt so giving them hopes and dreams just seems redundant, to me at least.

That's a pretty harsh hit for people that invested points into Leadership. My sole interest in investing heavily in Leadership was so I could have henchmen as a part of my RP at level 30. Never mind how weak they may be. Even if you're a level 30 there's no reason you shouldn't be able to hire a guard. It doesn't have to be like miss over-the-top level 25 duergar up there or even have a cool backstory.
Just add some generic henchmen that people can hire. Like talking to a commander type NPC for the generic henchmen, they'd fit nicely with some of the stuff in New Guldorand. Allow folks to hire "Iron Throne Mercenary", "Flaming Fist Mercenary", "Zhentarim Mercenary", and so on. And you could add generic henchmen options to guildhalls, allow faction members to hire them like nobles can hire guards from their castles.

[Batrachophrenoboocosmomachia]

For the record, reading these discussions with interest.

[chris a gogo]

Im currently playing in the UD.

So my choices of henchmen are quite limited some need noble (the rather op dwarf for example) other need high leadership to use which is the ones i always use a average fighter with low AC and decent AB and damage.

I take this henchman everywhere the abyss, lower dark etc.
He makes a decent second fighter in a party which has made the feat and skill investment worthwhile.
But it is high maintenance i spend thousands buffing and keeping him alive, so when people are saying there is no cost honestly your wrong i go through 30-60 kits on him on every outing around 3k on animal buffs, they are the pc made ones for longer durations.

I mean sure with a different character that could buff the henchman then it would be far cheaper, but if I was playing a cleric or wizard then id have much better summons with better immunities and way higher AC.

[Paupper]

Leadership helps when traveling with players, who are always going to be better than henches.

Folks who struggle to find other players to party with (bad time zone, outlier or pariah concept, whatever) are the ones who can make use of henchmen most.

Kind of wish henchmen weren't tied to leadership honestly or there were other skills or means to hire one (even just $$$). Players who take high leadership because they're confident they'll have parties to support don't need henchmen. Loners by choice or circumstance desperately need henchmen but those leadership points feel like a waste if at 30 they can't recruit anymore and can only occasionally find a group (not to mention that hardly indicates they're "leadership" material).

[Apothys]

Oh no! You mean I cant have Matron Bloodbeard whispering sweet nothings in my ear all day long in the hub...

I get this change, Ill hold my hand up and say that I perhaps used her more as a bodyguard than anything else against possible attacks in the hub. Though they would come with me out and about when patrolling the outskirts of Andunor.

Saying that I always found there was another henchmen i could use if she wasn't about and I play a lot!. Having said that I do feel that all the points I invested on my toon are now for nothing. Yes they have other uses, buffing a party slightly or extra votes when voting for yourself (very rare use) in an election and bounty hunting.

Think I'm just gutted this new awesome skill loses some potency when you hit 30, the access to henchmen was by far the most exciting thing about this skill. I do hope something else is implemented to offset a level 30s loss.

[Kuma]

Jumping in here, I will say that Irongron's plethora of henchmen across the surface and my fewer worldbuildy/narratively focused henchmen were created wholly independently of each other, including their mechanical stats. As a result there's a slight disparity between the two of them: the surface ones are supplemental, not designed to replace a player, and stretch across a far wider level gap with a focus on low- and mid-levels.

Mine turned out to be a little too overtuned, the sheer fact that Matron Bloodbeard is great at high level content may be a testament to her prowess, but is perhaps an oversight. This, combined with the fact it took me about as long to make seven of them in the time Irongron did 40+ is why there's a bit of a surface/UD disparity. Expect UD henchmen strength to be toned down alongside the addition of more, less novella-length henchmen, at which point opening them up to level 30s could be revisited!

[Security_Blanket]

I think people will be put a lot more at ease if we're given a solid "yes" or "no" on whether henchmen will be available to 30s in the future. Nevermind the lack of henchmen currently available, if people are investing in leadership now they want to know that it isn't going to be a waste.

I think a mixture of generic henchmen and these named henchmen would be the best approach to this issue. Make the named henchmen only available from levels 3-29 and generic henchmen for levels 3-30. This allows characters to travel and enjoy the diverse henchmen around the server at least once on their character and lets the 30s continue to benefit from their skill investment.

[Irongron]

Right now I'm fine with the restriction. Henchmen are there to provide flavour, sure, but also to aid with the levelling experience. They shouldn't be hoarded by characters that have no use for them - that should be obvious.

If you are already level 30, you just don't really need an extra NPC, and the polite thing is to leave them for those that do.

If we can figure out a way to ensure they're only used for actual adventuring then we will likely revisit this.

[Security_Blanket]

Right now I'm fine with the restriction. Henchmen are there to provide flavour, sure, but also to aid with the levelling experience. They shouldn't be hoarded by characters that have no use for them - that should be obvious.

If you are already level 30, you just don't really need an extra NPC, and the polite thing is to leave them for those that do.

Given the lack of henchmen to go around, that makes perfect sense, but end builds should be taken more into account. Is someone going to invest skills and potentially feats into a skill that loses its usefulness the moment you hit level 30? 33 Skill points is not a small investment. They add flavor to leveling but I thought the idea was that it brings flavor to the character in general as well.

If we can figure out a way to ensure they're only used for actual adventuring then we will likely revisit this.

This I find concerning. If someone hires henchmen are they not allowed to walk around with them if not heading into a dungeon somewhere? This opens a whole other can of worms where we're only allowed to use our hired guards for this or that and never to act as a hired guard in civilized lands. I can only speak from my perspective but I don't care about dungeons or having a guard grinding alongside me, I want a couple of bodyguards that I can hire for my character.

[DM Rex]

If henchmen were the sole advantage for taking leadership, this might be a far more catastrophic blow. But it isn't the only benefit gained. Skilsl have and do sometimes change, and in a persistent world nothing is fully finalized. (Bluff, leadership even being added at all, lore/umd, and so on)

Defending the idea of showing off henchmen as makeshift company, pets, or pretend body guards shows a disregard for the writing and intention surrounding the henchmen and their mechanics shows a lack of consideration for the players that could use them for a far more practical character.

Solutions and ideas are helpful, so with that in mind what could be done differently?

[Gouge Away]

Allow ways to get a henchman besides leadership skill and nobility? It seems natural that if you're a citizen of a settlement or part of a major guildhouse you could have easy access to themed henchmen in those places (and only there.)

Or, as these henchmen have backgrounds it also seems natural they'd be attracted to PCs with similar stories. What if hiring them had a cost and that cost drastically increased the further you were away in alignment, if you didn't share the same race or deity, etc, and sufficient leadership skill allowed you to override the costs altogether?

I can't ever see investing in leadership just to get a henchmen. I'm not opposed to the level 30 cutoff at all and the system is fine but it seems like there could be other ways to make use of it.

[Security_Blanket]

Defending the idea of showing off henchmen as makeshift company, pets, or pretend body guards shows a disregard for the writing and intention surrounding the henchmen and their mechanics shows a lack of consideration for the players that could use them for a far more practical character.

My character would do this, if the henchmen were willing to accept pay and if they appeared loyal enough to coin to do their job then why wouldn't he? There is a legitimate RP reason for my character to do this even if you deem it impractical. I thought the henchmen could and would add a lot to the character depending on how you play them. I'm not disregarding the writing about each individual henchmen, I would treat them accordingly. I know that it makes sense with limited henchmen, I wouldn't take away from others that are going to get more use out of them.

Solutions and ideas are helpful, so with that in mind what could be done differently?

I posted my suggestion already, a commander type of NPC at different locations around the server, possibly even guildhalls, where you can hire henchmen based on your Leadership and level. You can add all sorts of guard/mercenary/garrison npc henchmen all over the island. No need for a background for each one, no need for a name beyond "Iron Throne Mercenary" or whatever.

[Aren]

If henchmen were the sole advantage for taking leadership, this might be a far more catastrophic blow. But it isn't the only benefit gained. Skilsl have and do sometimes change, and in a persistent world nothing is fully finalized. (Bluff, leadership even being added at all, lore/umd, and so on)

Defending the idea of showing off henchmen as makeshift company, pets, or pretend body guards shows a disregard for the writing and intention surrounding the henchmen and their mechanics shows a lack of consideration for the players that could use them for a far more practical character.

Solutions and ideas are helpful, so with that in mind what could be done differently?

If you look at mechanical power (which I tend to do), the synergy between henchmen and leadership makes up 90% of reason to invest in the skill, especially as a Noble. I am a huge fan of this system and I love the way it has been implemented. I am also aware that things change on Arelith, often for the better. But I believe that proper feedback regarding these changes could potentially help make the system in question even better.

Currently as I see it, without henchmen and the synergy bonuses leadership adds to them, you are left with:

1) Making copious amounts of coin from handing in heads. This is really good, but also has little value once you reach epics and gearing is done (e.g. at 30 when henchmen becomes unavailable).
2) (In my opinion) Negligible party bonuses - that does not really benefit those that rarely party up (either due to preference or playing odd timezones).
3) More votes for yourself in elections. Only relevant if you are actually running for office.

The solution or suggestion if you will, posted by myself and Security Blanket, would both make henchmen readily available for players who invest in the skill and complimentary gear and at the same time keep the fun and interesting part of Leadership at max level. I would love to see nobility to have even more of an impact or influence upon the system, but that is for another discussion/feedback thread.

[Scylon]

If henchmen were the sole advantage for taking leadership, this might be a far more catastrophic blow. But it isn't the only benefit gained. Skilsl have and do sometimes change, and in a persistent world nothing is fully finalized. (Bluff, leadership even being added at all, lore/umd, and so on)

Defending the idea of showing off henchmen as makeshift company, pets, or pretend body guards shows a disregard for the writing and intention surrounding the henchmen and their mechanics shows a lack of consideration for the players that could use them for a far more practical character.

Solutions and ideas are helpful, so with that in mind what could be done differently?

Originally the whole skill was "marketed" as a buff to summons and henchman, replacing persuasion. The party part of it is negligible at best and not really worth a 33 point investment. Henchmen with 40+ requirements are now almost useless, as the points needed to get them are limited to a couple of charisma classes now or leadership skill feats which are better spent elsewhere at 30. I understand why this was done, however from a RP perspective having NPC guards is a valid RP and I'm not sure what other kinds of RP was expected here. Mechanically no one is going to care much about the henchmen's back story, only how good at killing things it will be. RP wise as a "guard" that's different.

Now you mentioned solutions.

I propose 2 different classes of henchmen. Keep the ones you have now as is, even with the restrictions, and lower the leadership requirements. From a leveling perspective no one is going to focus on getting 45+ leadership sub 30 just to get a henchmen, its not practical. These guys are built for story/leveling so make them actually attainable.

However create a new class of just generic, high cost, no name henchmen people can "buy" that expire on death like the Golems do. Player can hold 2, they are "ok" in combat but due to the high price if it is killed it will need to be replaced. Also gate in behind high leadership/level requirements. Hells you can even add class requirements of some. Also these shouldn't be faction locked, however different factions/places would offer different henchmen.

[Aren]

For the record, reading these discussions with interest.

Glad to hear it.

[Skarain]

I am just throwing this here, but what holds one back from recruiting PC's for the bodyguard/follower role? Given a salary, I do think
there would be characters interested of playing such a role.

The downsides I can think are: players are limited by their play time and might ask for higher salary than NPC's.

Also the thought of Hired Henchmen using Golem mechanics reskinned sounds like a great idea! You can customize the description of the golem and change their name, and if given a few appearances to choose from, players will create their NPC following.

Add in a rare loot item: "Recruitment Contract", + Crafted "Armor" recipes (like with golems, define the appearance, or option 2> read below) and go to a Recruitment Barracks to generate a NPC using given presets.

Problem migth be that players will want to play dress up doll and request many different appearance NPC's, and when they are less space consuming than golems, everyone migth be seen having one.

That migth be solved with the earlier "Iron Throne Mercanary" and "Zhentarim Agent" or "Duegar Guard" (Grayport) style NPC's that you can recruit golem-like when bringing the recruitment contract + other crafted material "donations" to that Commander NPC in different locations to create your "Gole- ahem, your Henchmen".

[Aren]

I am just throwing this here, but what holds one back from recruiting PC's for the bodyguard/follower role? Given a salary, I do think
there would be characters interested of playing such a role.

The downsides I can think are: players are limited by their play time and might ask for higher salary than NPC's.

Relevant observation, definitely. Nothing is holding one back from recruiting PC's as henchmen. I've done this, and seen this done. It can be fun and engaging roleplay - and I highly encourage it!
This discussion pertains mostly to the mechanical aspects of Leadership however, and the fact that reaching endgame (level 30) after the implemented change, will take away most of what makes leadership fun/good/interesting.

[chris a gogo]

Unread post by Irongron » 05 Feb 2021 04:42

Right now I'm fine with the restriction. Henchmen are there to provide flavour, sure, but also to aid with the levelling experience. They shouldn't be hoarded by characters that have no use for them - that should be obvious.

If you are already level 30, you just don't really need an extra NPC, and the polite thing is to leave them for those that do.

If we can figure out a way to ensure they're only used for actual adventuring then we will likely revisit this.

Then can those of us (ME) get a relevel as I have now effectively a wasted epic feat when i took epic skill focus in leadership.
You know to be able to use those awesome henchmen you were going to add that needed 80 leadership.

I would much rather take a feat that would help the character not add +1 to companions saves vs fear as the whole reason for taking it is to use the high leadership henchmen.