Thoughts on shaman and what it is versus what it is missing.

[MageTankTech]

So to begin with the basic idea of a Shaman (or at least my understanding of it) is that they commune with the spirits and elemental planes and investigate them for insight into the world's workings. Mechanically this is why they have free feats in Divination and why despite utilizing natural magic like a druid they can also summon undead even though the concept of undead is for all accounts in direct opposition to nature (perhaps an argument can be made that they are drawing from the negative energy plane to accomplish this?). At least this is my understanding as to why things are like they are.

Having said this it feels like there are a few existing systems that they do not have access to which if going by the lore one would expect to be within their arsenal.

One is the ability to turn undead. Given that communing with spirits is a part of their lore and shamans are well known for the concept of summoning them I would think it also makes sense for them to be able to send them away. I could also see an argument being made for the dismissal spell under a similar pretense of their interactions with the planes (or just adding the ability to dismiss outsiders to their Turn Undead ability).

From what I can tell of their presentation it wouldn't be a stretch to equate Shamans to a form of summoning or conjuration specialist, after all they do not draw their magic from favors of deities or the utilization of arcane formulas. Everything they have is taken from somewhere else via their own talents.

In the vein of summoning as being a focus point I could also see the tribal shaman being adjusted to summoning the spirits of their ancestors as followers being an option rather than flesh and blood tribal warriors (could be an alternative path choice). It would also give them a chance to flex their spirit summoning prowess without it having to be in the form of animating corpses (a decidedly darker take on the shaman's specialties and not one which even necessarily involves spirits).

Another argument to allow utilizing spirit summoning without the stigma tied to animating corpses would be the ability to summon spirits as temporary aids. By temporary aids I mean less controllable minion and more neutral party who is willing to aid. Could work similar to summoning a Balor without protection in that it doesn't become a follower and instead just lingers in the area but instead of being auto hostile they could just be netural with an inclination to attack hostiles in the immediate area, could also give them a very short duration to avoid having tons of ghosts lingering in the area. I believe this would make it feel more like "calling spirits for aid" and less like "summoning undead to do your bidding".

On the Divination and information gathering side of things, perhaps give them the ability to observe the balance of an area like a druid. Even if they cannot forcibly correct the balance it would make sense for them to at least be able to see it. Perhaps they could also gather more information from a body since they could arguably communicate with the spirit of the deceased to find out what happened. Maybe even give them the ability to chat with people in the Fugue directly rather than having to wait for them to return to the land of the living.

I do like the Shaman's concept and the RP for it but it does feel like it could use a few more tools to support it's unique form of spell casting and general focus.


If anyone has any thoughts or ideas on how a Shaman works, how one might go about the RP with their current tools or what might be a useful addition to their arsenal feel free to chime in.

[Salasker]

As pertains to the Balance side of your thoughts, I believe that while druids can alter it, they can't actually sense what the balance is, rangers and harper scouts can. Likely this is to bring more RP between these classes. Allowing Shamans to do one or the other would be just as beneficial, in my opinion.

[Duchess Says]

I think shamans are interesting because there are many ways to interpret them. For the most part they are in a good spot but it’s a bit on you to define exactly what your shaman is… and that is a good thing. There's enormous potential for creativity there.

However I don’t think they ought to have -balance. They are not druids. They are in many ways the opposite of a druid. Druids are inherently about maintaining the “balance of nature” and are strictly neutral. Even if they are good or evil or lawful or chaotic druids are neutral first and put nature first. Even if evil they must be opposed to undead (by server decree, not just my opinion).

Shamans on the other hand can and perhaps should be very much about extremes. They may use nature magic but it’s in a different way, My own interpretation is tied to serving or exploiting their (usually primitive) civilization or culture or tribe or race rather than protecting “the balance” itself. They certainly can and will use undead freely if they’re so inclined. Of course you can play a true neutral nature-protecting shaman if you wish but if you’re playing a shaman I’d say try to go to some extreme with it, don’t just make a slightly different version of a detached druid. Even a TN shaman could value something besides “the balance” itself.

If shamans are open to improvement I’d want to see a few things. One would be a few more spells to make them more capable in melee if you want to build a battle-shaman. A thematic version of certain cleric or bard buffs, maybe. Second is one additional language of their choice (a planar language or sylvan/animal). Third is the ability to take a totem like rangers that re-skins summons (but without the druid ability modification). Last, I’d love to see them get dominate person as hypnosis or the voodoo style of zombification would be thematically cool and seems appropriate. Those are just my suggestions and I’m sure others would disagree or add their own.

[MageTankTech]

I think shamans are interesting because there are many ways to interpret them. For the most part they are in a good spot but it’s a bit on you to define exactly what your shaman is… and that is a good thing. There's enormous potential for creativity there.

However I don’t think they ought to have -balance. They are not druids. They are in many ways the opposite of a druid. Druids are inherently about maintaining the “balance of nature” and are strictly neutral. Even if they are good or evil or lawful or chaotic druids are neutral first and put nature first. Even if evil they must be opposed to undead (by server decree, not just my opinion).

Shamans on the other hand can and perhaps should be very much about extremes. They may use nature magic but it’s in a different way, My own interpretation is tied to serving or exploiting their (usually primitive) civilization or culture or tribe or race rather than protecting “the balance” itself. They certainly can and will use undead freely if they’re so inclined. Of course you can play a true neutral nature-protecting shaman if you wish but if you’re playing a shaman I’d say try to go to some extreme with it, don’t just make a slightly different version of a detached druid. Even a TN shaman could value something besides “the balance” itself.

If shamans are open to improvement I’d want to see a few things. One would be a few more spells to make them more capable in melee if you want to build a battle-shaman. A thematic version of certain cleric or bard buffs, maybe. Second is one additional language of their choice (a planar language or sylvan/animal). Third is the ability to take a totem like rangers that re-skins summons (but without the druid ability modification). Last, I’d love to see them get dominate person as hypnosis or the voodoo style of zombification would be thematically cool and seems appropriate. Those are just my suggestions and I’m sure others would disagree or add their own.

Regarding the balance bit I agree that Shamans do not have the same sort of connection to nature and should not gain the ability to forcefully alter it. My thoughts were mainly in regards to a Shaman's ability to "see" things and how they might be able to "see" the balance. I wasn't aware that the ability to see it was already a system for Harper scouts but I believe that would be a good tool for Shamans to have.

I'm not certain what you mean by extremes to be honest though I would say that since Shamans can be powered by different sources aside from just nature I think it would make sense that what they can do "be it to summon undead or other things" should be dependent on what their source is. Nothing in nature should specifically give them the ability to animate undead so if they claim to be nature powered I would imagine they would give up that aspect of their skill set. Assuming that they do not simple draw from different fonts.

I can't really say much about the balance side of things regarding a melee capable shaman.

The extra language I would absolutely be willing to get behind as insight is supposed to be a strong point for Shamans after all.

I am honestly not certain about the Animal totem thing as while getting in touch with a spirit to take on traits of it seems right up a Shaman's alley I would see it more in an enhancing role like tribal tattoos empowering them or something, not so much influencing what summons they have.

As for the dominate person thing, while it is true that Shamans mess with minds in ways like inducing dreams or visions I don't recall there actually being lore of them outright controlling minds.

Otherwise I'm actually not sure what this "voodoo style" of zombification you are referring to is about.

[Duchess Says]

I'm not sure why you need to quote my entire post if you have no opinion or are indifferent to most of it? Just negating everything I say makes me wonder why anyone would bother responding.

And, If you don't know what I am referencing with "voodoo" zombies either use Google or move along. It's not that obscure.

[garrbear758]

Thanks for the feedback and keep it coming. Shaman is on my list of things to give some tweaks/buffs to, especially in regards to their RP toys and making them more fun to play. I can't promise anything soon but hopefully it's helpful to know that it is on my list. I will say that they will definitely not be getting Balance, but I'd be open to other things like -track (which really should be renamed to avoid confusion with the other track).

EDIT: Please don't attack each other and stay on topic.

[Xerah]

I don't see turn undead or balance being missing from Shamans at all. I think they do fill a nice niche of what they are.

I do agree they could do with one or two things to make them more interesting. We've tossed around a few thoughts, like totems and such but nothing in the works at the moment.

[Griefmaker]

The shaman class is one I have about 3 months experience now and believe it can be a ton of fun RP-wise and mechanically. My character Sarog is one I have focused on being a caster shaman who sees, communes, and basically is all about the spirits.

I do like the spell list and think it is diverse and most spell levels have choices a player has to make which can shape the mechanics of the character a bit. PvP -wise...my character has had only a little experience actually mechanically fighting other PCs, since most of the time it was simply hostile RP that did not lead to PvP but instead continued the story (which is how it should be, in my opinion).

I do not believe they need anything regarding Nature, except "maybe" having them be able to see if an area is out of balance (I could see the spirits of a land giving a shaman more knowledge regarding something). I can see a shaman working well with Nature-y sorts since druids often are about the spirits and so on too, but I personally do not believe shamans should fall into that category.

The idea of allowing them "totems" or something like that would be cool.

But I personally think something as simple as anything a shaman summons has the ghostly visage vfx, it would make them seem more "spiritual". I know for my dude, he calls everything that he summons the spirits of the elementals or the spirits of his ancestors (when he summons the tribals). WYSIWYG belies that since people see "tribal barbarians" or the like. But it is fine. There are enough players willing to roll with it.

I think it would give shamans a signature flavor though without adding any mechanics and I think it would be really easy to do.

EDIT:
I did think of one other thing, though it may be redundant since most people take a lot of lore in order to use scrolls, but perhaps an RP-cookie for shaman which fits in them "seeing" more than most people is to be able to see the cool lore-stuff IG in places even if they do not have enough lore to see it normally.

I am not sure if there are a ton of these sorts of things out there, but more RP cookies which fit the "preternatural knowledge or seeing" which can be added to shaman the better!

Mechanically...if spot were boosted since they can see more, that would be cool too >.> (that would be cool, admittedly, but one can just dump 3 levels in a class that gets spot instead).

[Dr. B]

I agree that turn undead suits them. I also think the same is true of Gate.

[Dubhwulfe]

From someone who has played a shaman and intends to play another one very soon!

Things I'd love to see:

1.) A bonus language. Sylvan could work! Maybe Animal? Just something to tie them a bit more to the natural world.

2.) Spectral animal companion. Doesn't need to be as strong as a druid's, maybe scale it like a rangers? Maybe make it completely flavorful instead? Not able to damage or tank, but while it's out you can RP with it via (-a) and it gives you a bonus to skills based on which animal?

3.) I don't know if this is possible, but maybe something interesting like a "-track" command, but for only animals, undead and spirits?

[Diegovog]

It was mentioned that shaman was designed to work with barbarian but especially with the recent gear update for shamans, all of the items are 100% aimed for caster shaman (tribal path). I'd love to see items for the rage barb/shaman

[Glowing Mushroom]

I'd really love to see the Shaman get a customizable Spirit Companion.

Like the Druid's Animal Companion, you would be able to select its appearance. Instead of animals, you get a choice of different spirit forms. Ghost Ball, Wraith, Ghost, Shadow, etc., but their appearances are altered to glow blue or white, and they each have their own distinct skill/stats.

The Spirit Comp would scale up to lvl 30, like a Druid's Animal Comp.

Instead of Magic Fang and Awaken, the Spirit Comp would gain skills/stats/APRs/damage types as the Shaman levels up, as to encourage going pure Shaman.

The most powerful Spirit Comp buffs of course being at 30.

I'm fairly certain I've seen this suggested elsewhere. As it stands, Shaman is a neat class with the extensive Druid spellbook capabilities - But it was released with far too few bells and whistles. It took months just to get some staves for it. I really hope to see Shaman get some more love that it deserves.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Turn undead is explicitly a stepping stone for divine shield/might. And its destroys/fears/controls undead through shear force, not 'communing'. It would not be suitable rp and mechanics balance for shaman.

I think shaman is in a decent spot right now. Maybe some tweaks to make battle strength shaman more a thing, but even that I am not sure how much is needed if at all.

[MageTankTech]

From someone who has played a shaman and intends to play another one very soon!

Things I'd love to see:

1.) A bonus language. Sylvan could work! Maybe Animal? Just something to tie them a bit more to the natural world.

2.) Spectral animal companion. Doesn't need to be as strong as a druid's, maybe scale it like a rangers? Maybe make it completely flavorful instead? Not able to damage or tank, but while it's out you can RP with it via (-a) and it gives you a bonus to skills based on which animal?

3.) I don't know if this is possible, but maybe something interesting like a "-track" command, but for only animals, undead and spirits?

1. They also pull from the Planes so languages tied to those could also be nice.

3. When you say -track do you mean the investigating footprints one, or the seeing the balance of creatures in an area one? I assume you mean seeing the balance of creatures in the area one since there are no PC animals aside from shape shifters and there are no spirit anything which can transition between areas.

Turn undead is explicitly a stepping stone for divine shield/might. And its destroys/fears/controls undead through shear force, not 'communing'. It would not be suitable rp and mechanics balance for shaman.

I think shaman is in a decent spot right now. Maybe some tweaks to make battle strength shaman more a thing, but even that I am not sure how much is needed if at all.

First of all the Shaman doesn't just communicate and see, they control as well, it is in their job description. I could easily see them destroying/driving off/controlling undead through sheer force, especially since they can draw from the positive and negative energy planes. With that said they do have a spell for Controlling Undead and another spell for paralyzing them so I could see those as being sufficient replacements for Turn undead.

As for Divine shield/might I agree that they should not get those from having turn undead.

Now if the DMs cannot separate Divine Shield/Might from Turn undead mechanically then that is unfortunate.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

[
That's just a lot of rework for a lot of basic NWN mechanics (that line up with table top mechanics) to include it in a class that not everyone unanimously even agrees belongs to shaman (I still don't but I understand your perspective). All the classes that access divine shield/might do so by accessing turn undead. In fact the only thing we really use turn undead for becuase turn undead for with divine builds (you even convert turn undead time per day into. Divine shield/might per day) Nobody is using the feat that enables turning outsiders for a reason, because turning in itself on nwn is kind of lackluster.

[magistrasa]

I have a lot of thoughts about the Shaman class, and I think a lot of the ideas in here so far are really interesting. Historically speaking, the identity of the Shaman has always been tied to religious practice, connecting people to their ancestors and offering protection to others in the form of totems and charms and ritual prayer. Knowing the identity of the Shaman is important in deciding what direction future updates should go. If wikipedia, popular culture, and historical legend are anything to go off of, the Shaman is an emissary for otherworldly forces, and they commune with, manipulate, and protect against those forces for the sake of their communities. That relationship with "the otherworld" can be represented in many different ways, but right now I feel like it's not shown in the Shaman's mechanics and boons.

I agree that Turn Undead would be extremely fitting for the class from a thematic perspective, as the Shaman's role in the world isn't just to commune with the dead, but to protect the living from otherworldly forces. It's just a shame that Turn Undead is mechanically tied to Divine Might & Shield.

I also think Sylvan, the language of the Fey, would be appropriate for the Shaman class, since it would be difficult to commune with the spirits of nature if you don't even understand their language.

The Shaman's spell list also comes to mind as lacking representation of the class's themes. Protection from Good/Evil would be a welcome addition, since their relationship with "the otherworld" is the hallmark of the Shaman's identity. Moreover, for getting free Divination focii and encouraging people to become diviners with this class, they're lacking in some pretty obvious divination spells too. Legend Lore seems fitting, as a Shaman might commune with the spirits to understand the history of an item in their possession. Clairaudience/Clairvoyance also feels extremely appropriate. And then on the illusion side, I think they should get Ethereal & Ghostly Visage, mostly because I think that'd be a useful roleplay tool to really represent the concept of a "spirit walk" that Shamans are so strongly associated with.

Historical accounts of Shamanistic practices say that Shamans were able to send people visions and omens through their connection with "the otherworld." Personally, I feel like the Shaman class should get more of an incentive to pick up Illusion focii, which as a consequence would open them up to the -project_image ability. The easiest way to offer that incentive would be to give them the spells Weird and Phantasmal Killer - which make perfect sense for the class concept, as the spells "send people visions," just like Shamans were said to do in real life. Just that one addition would really open up a lot of possibilities for caster Shamans!

I also have some kooky, off-the-wall ideas, related to vision quest style stuff for the Shaman: What if the Shaman could enter the Fugue without dying? Like -scry, it would leave behind a body double, and the Shaman's soul could wander the fugue, interacting with other spirits lingering there. For extra immersive intrigue, maybe to use this ability at all, the Shaman needs to have a Leaf of the Dreaming Tree in their inventory (or something else entirely). And maybe they could even revive people in this state, by using some special ability on the player ghosts found there! If something like this were to be implemented, I would think the Shaman should lose access to Raise Dead & Resurrection, to draw some distinction between their class identity and the likes of the Druid & Cleric.

Additional kooky off-the-wall idea: New spell. "Animal Messenger." 4th or 5th level, accessible to Shaman, Druid, and... maybe Ranger, too? When you use the spell on a nonhostile beast near you, it acts like a Speedy Messenger, taking your message and despawning from the area as it goes off to deliver the message. The catch is, the message delivered by the beast comes in Sylvan, so it's got a limited audience. I feel like this would be an awesome addition to the server, and to the Shaman as well, since they've been known in legends to use animals to send messages to people.

Anyways, that's the extent of my thoughts for the Shaman. It's the beginnings of a class with loads of interesting and fun roleplay potential, but it falls just short of hitting the mark. I don't think they need anything combat-oriented, but they could really use some utility and flavor, especially if it distinguishes them from the other divine-oriented casters they're so often compared to. If the Druid's focus is "Nature," and the Cleric's focus is "Divinity," I feel like the Shaman's focus should be "Humanity" - Community, Culture, Anthropology, and the like. All-in-all, I'm really looking forward to seeing this class bloom into its full potential.

[Hazard]

I have a lot of thoughts about the Shaman class, and I think a lot of the ideas in here so far are really interesting. Historically speaking, the identity of the Shaman has always been tied to religious practice, connecting people to their ancestors and offering protection to others in the form of totems and charms and ritual prayer. Knowing the identity of the Shaman is important in deciding what direction future updates should go. If wikipedia, popular culture, and historical legend are anything to go off of, the Shaman is an emissary for otherworldly forces, and they commune with, manipulate, and protect against those forces for the sake of their communities. That relationship with "the otherworld" can be represented in many different ways, but right now I feel like it's not shown in the Shaman's mechanics and boons.

I agree that Turn Undead would be extremely fitting for the class from a thematic perspective, as the Shaman's role in the world isn't just to commune with the dead, but to protect the living from otherworldly forces. It's just a shame that Turn Undead is mechanically tied to Divine Might & Shield.

I also think Sylvan, the language of the Fey, would be appropriate for the Shaman class, since it would be difficult to commune with the spirits of nature if you don't even understand their language.

The Shaman's spell list also comes to mind as lacking representation of the class's themes. Protection from Good/Evil would be a welcome addition, since their relationship with "the otherworld" is the hallmark of the Shaman's identity. Moreover, for getting free Divination focii and encouraging people to become diviners with this class, they're lacking in some pretty obvious divination spells too. Legend Lore seems fitting, as a Shaman might commune with the spirits to understand the history of an item in their possession. Clairaudience/Clairvoyance also feels extremely appropriate. And then on the illusion side, I think they should get Ethereal & Ghostly Visage, mostly because I think that'd be a useful roleplay tool to really represent the concept of a "spirit walk" that Shamans are so strongly associated with.

Historical accounts of Shamanistic practices say that Shamans were able to send people visions and omens through their connection with "the otherworld." Personally, I feel like the Shaman class should get more of an incentive to pick up Illusion focii, which as a consequence would open them up to the -project_image ability. The easiest way to offer that incentive would be to give them the spells Weird and Phantasmal Killer - which make perfect sense for the class concept, as the spells "send people visions," just like Shamans were said to do in real life. Just that one addition would really open up a lot of possibilities for caster Shamans!

I also have some kooky, off-the-wall ideas, related to vision quest style stuff for the Shaman: What if the Shaman could enter the Fugue without dying? Like -scry, it would leave behind a body double, and the Shaman's soul could wander the fugue, interacting with other spirits lingering there. For extra immersive intrigue, maybe to use this ability at all, the Shaman needs to have a Leaf of the Dreaming Tree in their inventory (or something else entirely). And maybe they could even revive people in this state, by using some special ability on the player ghosts found there! If something like this were to be implemented, I would think the Shaman should lose access to Raise Dead & Resurrection, to draw some distinction between their class identity and the likes of the Druid & Cleric.

Additional kooky off-the-wall idea: New spell. "Animal Messenger." 4th or 5th level, accessible to Shaman, Druid, and... maybe Ranger, too? When you use the spell on a nonhostile beast near you, it acts like a Speedy Messenger, taking your message and despawning from the area as it goes off to deliver the message. The catch is, the message delivered by the beast comes in Sylvan, so it's got a limited audience. I feel like this would be an awesome addition to the server, and to the Shaman as well, since they've been known in legends to use animals to send messages to people.

Anyways, that's the extent of my thoughts for the Shaman. It's the beginnings of a class with loads of interesting and fun roleplay potential, but it falls just short of hitting the mark. I don't think they need anything combat-oriented, but they could really use some utility and flavor, especially if it distinguishes them from the other divine-oriented casters they're so often compared to. If the Druid's focus is "Nature," and the Cleric's focus is "Divinity," I feel like the Shaman's focus should be "Humanity" - Community, Culture, Anthropology, and the like. All-in-all, I'm really looking forward to seeing this class bloom into its full potential.

I really like a lot of this. Instead of complimenting everything good though, I'm just going to nitpick one little problem I see.

Granting them sylvan language because they understand nature, to me, would mean druids also get sylvan language because they are far more about nature and I'm not entirely against that either but think it's unnecessary and would make for too much free sylvan.

[Jack Oat]

Shaman is the strongest casting class currently on Arelith, thanks.

[DM Rex]

Things I'd love to see:

1.) A bonus language. Sylvan could work! Maybe Animal? Just something to tie them a bit more to the natural world.

2.) Spectral animal companion. Doesn't need to be as strong as a druid's, maybe scale it like a rangers? Maybe make it completely flavorful instead? Not able to damage or tank, but while it's out you can RP with it via (-a) and it gives you a bonus to skills based on which animal?

3.) I don't know if this is possible, but maybe something interesting like a "-track" command, but for only animals, undead and spirits?

I do have to be honest, considering that shamans are not always good, passive, nature minded spirit people like the Druids are more or less forced to be, and can actively work with the undead, and it is intentionally part of their spell choices from 6th level on.

http://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Shaman

So, first suggestion wouldn't really do well due to the fact that not every shaman is only nature minded.

who draw upon primal forces to power their spells. These forces can range from spirits, tribal deities, or even the planes themselves.

Which means they're a cross between a druid, a cleric, and a sorcerer to an extent. The relationship as described does not have to be willing, and there can be those decidedly evil shamans who manipulate and force the elements in their control. While there are evil druids, there are no blight druids, which is why they all regardless of alignment would have access to this ancient language. It could be added I'm sure but I don't necessarily see the justification myself for this.

On the second. Shamans maybe could get some sort of animate spirit? But the alignment factor is kind of wild given you're binding it to the mortal plane once more and having it do battle or otherwise. It's a lot of work for what is kind of roleplay tools only.

On the third. It would be odd to only track a certain type of footprint. Not sure if it is/isn't feasible so much as why wouldn't they be able to track standard footprints too? They see tracks the same but they're not exceptionally more aware that X animal passed through. Not even druids have this ability.

A lot of the examples I keep reading suggest all these really peaceful, nature balancing folks when shamans can be outright spirit slavers and elemental warders. There's a big stretch of interpretation from a goblin under the bridge shaman, to an elegant yet feral wild elf shaman.

Other notes:

One is the ability to turn undead.

They get halt undead at 3rd level spells.

Another argument to allow utilizing spirit summoning without the stigma tied to animating corpses

They aren't druids, as I have outlined above. If you want to remove the stigma, either play without using animate dead, or play another class. You have to embrace the choices of the individual character. Hexblades can't, which is why they get persecuted when discovered often. Every single cleric regardless of alignment also has these abilities, but it's their choice whether to employ them or not.

the ability to observe the balance of an area like a druid

I hope by now why this mechanic shouldn't be added in my mind is fairly obvious by this point.

[Dubhwulfe]

*A lot of well-thought out explanations*

Good points! I am currently playing a "Spirit Warrior" archetype of Shaman, and enjoying it immensely... but I get the argument that I was a bit too focused on the "Nature Side" of things, and there's not really a language that will work for Shaman on both ends of the spectrum.

I do think that a spiritual companion would be a really cool idea. You could leave it's source up to RP (Good-aligned could have a spirit guide or guardian that follows them around... whereas an evil-aligned shaman could have bound the spirit to them against it's will.)

The confusion with -track was more along the lines of being able to "Sense" animals, undead, or spirits... but I'm not entirely sure where I was going with that, if I'm being honest.

[Aren]

Shaman is the strongest casting class currently on Arelith, thanks.

And it is not even hyperbole. Shaman is incredibly strong.

[Aren]

Thanks for the feedback and keep it coming. Shaman is on my list of things to give some tweaks/buffs to, especially in regards to their RP toys and making them more fun to play. I can't promise anything soon but hopefully it's helpful to know that it is on my list. I will say that they will definitely not be getting Balance, but I'd be open to other things like -track (which really should be renamed to avoid confusion with the other track).

EDIT: Please don't attack each other and stay on topic.

Just be careful not to add something that adds mechanical strength, Garrbear. This class is already a powerhouse : )

[MageTankTech]

Things I'd love to see:

1.) A bonus language. Sylvan could work! Maybe Animal? Just something to tie them a bit more to the natural world.

2.) Spectral animal companion. Doesn't need to be as strong as a druid's, maybe scale it like a rangers? Maybe make it completely flavorful instead? Not able to damage or tank, but while it's out you can RP with it via (-a) and it gives you a bonus to skills based on which animal?

3.) I don't know if this is possible, but maybe something interesting like a "-track" command, but for only animals, undead and spirits?

I do have to be honest, considering that shamans are not always good, passive, nature minded spirit people like the Druids are more or less forced to be, and can actively work with the undead, and it is intentionally part of their spell choices from 6th level on.

http://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Shaman

So, first suggestion wouldn't really do well due to the fact that not every shaman is only nature minded.

who draw upon primal forces to power their spells. These forces can range from spirits, tribal deities, or even the planes themselves.

Which means they're a cross between a druid, a cleric, and a sorcerer to an extent. The relationship as described does not have to be willing, and there can be those decidedly evil shamans who manipulate and force the elements in their control. While there are evil druids, there are no blight druids, which is why they all regardless of alignment would have access to this ancient language. It could be added I'm sure but I don't necessarily see the justification myself for this.

On the second. Shamans maybe could get some sort of animate spirit? But the alignment factor is kind of wild given you're binding it to the mortal plane once more and having it do battle or otherwise. It's a lot of work for what is kind of roleplay tools only.

On the third. It would be odd to only track a certain type of footprint. Not sure if it is/isn't feasible so much as why wouldn't they be able to track standard footprints too? They see tracks the same but they're not exceptionally more aware that X animal passed through. Not even druids have this ability.

A lot of the examples I keep reading suggest all these really peaceful, nature balancing folks when shamans can be outright spirit slavers and elemental warders. There's a big stretch of interpretation from a goblin under the bridge shaman, to an elegant yet feral wild elf shaman.

Regarding the language, isn't communication fairly important in a "willing bond" as was stated in the wiki? Being unable to communicate with one of their potential sources seems somewhat counter-intuitive. Doubly so when you consider that Shamans are known for communing with the spirits.

Second, "it is a lot of work for roleplay tools only"...I don't really understand the meaning behind this statement. This is a Roleplay server isn't it? Does giving more tools for interactive Roleplay mechanics really have to include combat mechanics to be worthwhile?

Third, I am guessing when they said "track" it was more of the ability to recognize the wildlife in the local area as opposed to footprints. As has been mentioned before the word track is misleading since it seems to refer to two different mechanics. Also I believe the ability in question is in reference to what Rangers do as opposed to Druids.

As for your follow up notes.

One is the ability to turn undead.

They get halt undead at 3rd level spells.

Another argument to allow utilizing spirit summoning without the stigma tied to animating corpses

They aren't druids, as I have outlined above. If you want to remove the stigma, either play without using animate dead, or play another class. You have to embrace the choices of the individual character. Hexblades can't, which is why they get persecuted when discovered often. Every single cleric regardless of alignment also has these abilities, but it's their choice whether to employ them or not.

the ability to observe the balance of an area like a druid

I hope by now why this mechanic shouldn't be added in my mind is fairly obvious by this point.

Turn undead is kind of a loss anyways since it is tied to Divine Shield which has no place in a Shaman's skill set. So I can't really say anything about this.

As for the second, I don't see how this relates to "summoning spirits". The whole issue with animating the dead isn't the fact that you are forcing the soul of someone to do your bidding, hell the mass majority of undead don't even have a soul. The issue and the stigma behind it lies in the fact that they are desecrating the dead, forcing the bodies of friends and family to do their bidding. As for your Hexblade example...their whole thing is about harming the soul, there is not even the slightest bit of a grey area with them so it makes sense why they would be persecuted regardless of the individual.

[DM Rex]

My words as above, shrinking for sanity purposes

Regarding the language, isn't communication fairly important in a "willing bond" as was stated in the wiki? Being unable to communicate with one of their potential sources seems somewhat counter-intuitive. Doubly so when you consider that Shamans are known for communing with the spirits.

Second, "it is a lot of work for roleplay tools only"...I don't really understand the meaning behind this statement. This is a Roleplay server isn't it?

Third, I am guessing when they said "track" it was more of the ability to recognize the wildlife in the local area as opposed to footprints. As has been mentioned before the word track is misleading since it seems to refer to two different mechanics. Also I believe the ability in question is in reference to what Rangers do as opposed to Druids.

A willing bond is not required per the shaman, it's in the wiki. Please re-read it. While some interpretations suggest they can talk to spirits, we don't presently have the possible mechanics in place to employ that. Same as we don't have druids who can speak through their elementals or totem animals for that matter. The -a function is strictly limited to a precious few entities to ensure there isn't abuse by players who may mean well but then may also take things entirely in the wrong direction roleplay wise and try to speak for elements (elementals) where a DM NPC should be speaking.

While it is a roleplay server, there is a weight and continual demand on the development team to keep churning out new areas, content, henchmen, spells, and so on and so forth. I merely say it is another task, an additional note on an already high pile, meaning it might be feasible but it also might not really be a priority. I can't dictate that, nor do I wish to.

And I'm just repeating myself for the third, tracks are tracks, yes some have paw pads and claw marks as opposed to feet. Everyone can see enemies in an area, I don't see a way to execute what is suggested here. Good or perhaps neutral aligned shamans potentially could have a less likely hostile reaction to animals? (When players stand near them without empathying the target, they're just wild still) but apart from this there's no way I can see it being executed.

As for your Hexblade example

I in no way used that class as an example, I've only talked about clerics and druids.

All in all the class is mechanically extremely strong, while my perspective is not that of the developers themselves, it doesn't make sense to address something that's not a problem. Perhaps it might be revisited later for additional themes and abilities? I can't say yes or no.

[MageTankTech]

A willing bond is not required per the shaman, it's in the wiki. Please re-read it. While some interpretations suggest they can talk to spirits, we don't presently have the possible mechanics in place to employ that. Same as we don't have druids who can speak through their elementals or totem animals for that matter. The -a function is strictly limited to a precious few entities to ensure there isn't abuse by players who may mean well but then may also take things entirely in the wrong direction roleplay wise and try to speak for elements (elementals) where a DM NPC should be speaking.

While it is a roleplay server, there is a weight and continual demand on the development team to keep churning out new areas, content, henchmen, spells, and so on and so forth. I merely say it is another task, an additional note on an already high pile, meaning it might be feasible but it also might not really be a priority. I can't dictate that, nor do I wish to.

And I'm just repeating myself for the third, tracks are tracks, yes some have paw pads and claw marks as opposed to feet. Everyone can see enemies in an area, I don't see a way to execute what is suggested here. Good or perhaps neutral aligned shamans potentially could have a less likely hostile reaction to animals? (When players stand near them without empathying the target, they're just wild still) but apart from this there's no way I can see it being executed.

As for your Hexblade example

I in no way used that class as an example, I've only talked about clerics and druids.

All in all the class is mechanically extremely strong, while my perspective is not that of the developers themselves, it doesn't make sense to address something that's not a problem. Perhaps it might be revisited later for additional themes and abilities? I can't say yes or no.

1: A willing bond is not required. I read this, I understand this. It is optional. It is also an option as in it CAN be willing. How this is reflected mechanically I do not know. What I do know is Clerics have prayers to dieties, Wizards have studies of books, Druids have...a lot of things. Bards have this thing where they travel to different locations on Areilith to learn new songs. I'm just wondering if there is a good option for reflecting how a Shaman might draw power from a "willing" source.


2. I understand fully and acknowledge this is just a thread for discussion not implementation. The Suggestion Thread is closed after all which is where serious suggestions go.


3. You guys really need to rename one of these.

Tracks (footprints)
Use tracks (footprints) near area transitions in natural areas to determine certain details about PCs who have recently traveled through. Search and Spot do not improve this.

Track
By using the "-track" command, a ranger can detect enemies in the area, and assess the balance of a NPC population.

To clarify, the second one is what I believe the discussion was about. Not the first.

4. I was going to ignore this point as I didn't think it was really that important to clarify but I didn't want it to seem like I might be cherry picking conversation bits and ignoring others.

They aren't druids, as I have outlined above. If you want to remove the stigma, either play without using animate dead, or play another class. You have to embrace the choices of the individual character. Hexblades can't, which is why they get persecuted when discovered often. Every single cleric regardless of alignment also has these abilities, but it's their choice whether to employ them or not.

To be clear I am not quoting the above to attack you or to win a silly internet argument. I simply have had experiences in the past where I ignored a point someone brought up which I didn't think was important and they jumped on me about it after.

5. While I do not know what other people think regarding whether or not this class is strong in combat. I do know that I am hoping to see their list of RP tools expanded upon. So I can't really say much regarding whether or not others view any changes as necessary.

Again, this is not in the suggestion thread so the only thing I hope to see come out of this thread is ideas for the future.