Can we have another look at Sorcerer/Palemaster?

[Shrouded Wanderer]

Since the addition of new classes and the abilities therein, I was wondering if it was yet possible to fix Sorcerer/palemaster spell progression to allow Gravetouched Archetype sorcerers to be competetive.

As it stands currently, for an example, a level 14 Palemaster/16 wizard would be treated as a 30 Caster level wizard (For Necromancy spells and dispells) and for spell progression have the same amount of slots as a 23rd level wizard (albiet needing to learn scrolls along the way)


For a sorcerer of equal level, a sorcerer 16/14 Palemaster is treated as a 30th level caster for Dispels and necromancy, While having the spell progression of a 16th level sorcerer and the slots of a 16th level caster, meaning 9th level spells are out of grasp.

Now many would point out that this may be a balance issue and that sorcerers would be too powerful if given spell progression upon every PM level, however I would point out that a 30th level sorcerer, and a 30th level wizard are somewhat on equal footing minus bonus feats.

Now with specialist wizards garnering more cookiees, I think it would be time to look and see if it was possible to allow sorcerers to be able to properly multiclass into palemastery.

Even if it were not possible to add spell progression to palemaster due to coding reasons, if there was some way to allow sorcerers to retroactively gain spell circles after taking the proper amount of PM levels (Thus lowering total spells known, but allowing a sorcerer access to the proper spell circles for their caster level) It would go a long way.

An example of this would be, Sorcerer takes 10 levels of PM after 3rd level, Total level 13 - Sorcerer Takes 4th level in sorc, and is given the option of choosing their 4th circle spells, instead of only being able to choose a 2nd circle spell.

Is this yet possible?

[Bunnysmack]

I might be wrong, but I believe that the issue is one that is very difficult to create a dev fix for.

As a side note, I would caution that any fix for sorcerer+Pale Master should come hand-in-hand with a nerf that prevents the use of divine shield if using this class. Pale masters are tanky enough as is without dumping all their casting stat on top of their already impressive AC. In anticipation of the counter-argument: Yes, the +20 dodge AC cap would partially limit this concern, but it would still allow for an estimated +5 AC to a endgame pale master, which equates to an additional 25% evade chance against attacks, on top of all their other AC. It would also mean that any abilities that debuff AC will have limited effectiveness as the divine shielded PM will be rocking close to an additional +9 AC that can replace whatever gets debuffed.

[Lexx]

This is a good subject to talk more on and I hope something positive comes of this, Shrouded.

[Shrouded Wanderer]

I might be wrong, but I believe that the issue is one that is very difficult to create a dev fix for.

As a side note, I would caution that any fix for sorcerer+Pale Master should come hand-in-hand with a nerf that prevents the use of divine shield if using this class. Pale masters are tanky enough as is without dumping all their casting stat on top of their already impressive AC. In anticipation of the counter-argument: Yes, the +20 dodge AC cap would partially limit this concern, but it would still allow for an estimated +5 AC to a endgame pale master, which equates to an additional 25% evade chance against attacks, on top of all their other AC.

I would say this would be a concern if it were possible to get the same amount of AC a wizard could get.

Ultimately this idea is limited by feats and stat investment, In order to get the even close to the same AC values the Sorc would need to invest into Power attack, 3 levels of Blackguard or Paladin, Divine shield, Then they would need still spell, Autostill 1,2,3, Which is a 7 feat investment on a class that would ultimately get 13 total feats (1 of which dedicated soully to PMs bonus feat of energy resist) In order to garner a similar AC value of a wizard or shadowdancer

This leaves 5 feats total, none of which would be epic feats, two of which need to be SF/GSF necro to get PM traits

So 3 normal feats, none of which could be epics left within that build. which basically gives you a SF/GSF bonus, say abjuration, and a metamagic , probably maximize or extend.

Is it possible? Yes. But the build would be rather gimped to get that sort of

[Bunnysmack]

Hmmmnn, a fair point.

I suppose I'm just wary of major changes that can create more builds with 65 to 70+ AC, but I'll admit that there would be some substantial hurdles to cram all of that into a build, especially because the divine dip would actively disallow taking a class that grants tumble as a class skill, and thereby sacrifice a fair amount of AC from another source.

[Shrouded Wanderer]

Hmmmnn, a fair point.

I suppose I'm just wary of major changes that can create more builds with 65 to 70+ AC, but I'll admit that there would be some substantial hurdles to cram all of that into a build, especially because the divine dip would actively disallow taking a class that grants tumble as a class skill, and thereby sacrifice a fair amount of AC from another source.

Yeah, its fair to worry about AC bloat, I can agree with that. But I dont think it warrants not having a look at potentially allowing a class who really only has about 2 builds available to them to have one more. If it is indeed even possible to do at this point.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

If it's an easy fix, I am all for it, but I am bot sure it is worth the headache.

There is also actaully a few ways to build a sorceror, there is different epic spell foci options for ranger dip. You can still be a full on necromancer or conjurer, etc. There are a few shadowsorc options too.

My main concern is shadowsorc/palemaster/blackgaurd synergy.

The high ac and immune to crits, higjh saves, super high dc spontaneously casted death spells and you wouldnt have to deal with actsully buying/finding scrolls for your new spells as a sorceror palemaster if the combo was "fixed".

And I think the way hips works is it can do this immediately succeed thing even if they beat your stealth as you disappear before the checks are even made.

[ReverentBlade]

The RP of being a spontaneous charisma-based spellcaster while methodically and painstakingly doing very uncharismatic things to your body is weird anyway. Just make PM wizard-only so people don't fall for the sorc/PM trap card.

[Bunnysmack]

The RP of being a spontaneous charisma-based spellcaster while methodically and painstakingly doing very uncharismatic things to your body is weird anyway. Just make PM wizard-only so people don't fall for the sorc/PM trap card.

Say that to Ogre Magi or Favored Souls to any deity of ugliness!

I'll wholeheartedly admit I'm mostly playing devil's advocate on this point, but some cha builds might manifest the social presence of charisma in ways that are not so "pretty looking," but instead carry a sort of personal gravitas that is carried by way of words or body language.

Also, a lot of PMs don't flaunt their PM creepy parts for all to see, and may even see artificial aesthetics improvements as part and partial of their whole transhumanist agenda for themselves (vampires manage to make themselves pretty, stands to reason a determined enough PM could as well). Even if that's not the case for a given pale master, it's actually probably a minority of PMs that have their default outfit for public interaction displaying the skele-arm.

[xanrael]

You can have a high charisma and not be comely or even be horrifying to look at. Comically becoming a mummy or mummified creature actually BOOSTS charisma by +4. Almost any creature upon becoming undead, as long as it isn't mindless (skeleton/zombie), actually gets a charisma boost such as wight, ghoul, lich, etc.

So while the change may reduce one's comeliness, it's not really uncharismatic.

This is separate from the mechanical worries of charisma casters and blackguards etc.

[Diegovog]

The RP of being a spontaneous charisma-based spellcaster while methodically and painstakingly doing very uncharismatic things to your body is weird anyway. Just make PM wizard-only so people don't fall for the sorc/PM trap card.

The decaying floating skull of a demilich has 20 charisma lol. These things don't have to make sense, they just need to be mechanically reasonable.

On the matter of the topic, yeah can't stack all the goodies and expect high CL. Don't think it should be changed.

[Shrouded Wanderer]

The RP of being a spontaneous charisma-based spellcaster while methodically and painstakingly doing very uncharismatic things to your body is weird anyway. Just make PM wizard-only so people don't fall for the sorc/PM trap card.

Theres lore precident for grave touched sorcerers whose bloodline is that of an ancestor who was a lich or a stillborn sorcerer who came back to life while a baby.


Often the palemastery isnt that they are experimenting on themselves, its more that as they gain power their bloodline begins to transform them much like an RDD into a more undead-like form.

The RP of being a spontaneous charisma-based spellcaster while methodically and painstakingly doing very uncharismatic things to your body is weird anyway. Just make PM wizard-only so people don't fall for the sorc/PM trap card.

The decaying floating skull of a demilich has 20 charisma lol. These things don't have to make sense, they just need to be mechanically reasonable.

On the matter of the topic, yeah can't stack all the goodies and expect high CL. Don't think it should be changed.

CL isnt the issue. The issue is that while wizards get spell progression, sorcerers do not and thus taking the class is entirely non viable.


They still gain the same CL "goodies" that wizards get, but they cannot actually take any spells provided the sorcerer doesnt hit the proper levels.

For example, a sorcerer/PM would need to take 18 levels of sorcerer minimum to gain 9th circle spells.


A wizard only requires 3.

[garrbear758]

I might be wrong, but I believe that the issue is one that is very difficult to create a dev fix for.

This is really the reason this hasn't been done.

[Shrouded Wanderer]

I might be wrong, but I believe that the issue is one that is very difficult to create a dev fix for.

This is really the reason this hasn't been done.

Is there any expanse on this? I thought the reason why it was so difficult was the same reason custom classes werent available, or spellbooks.

I have no real experience with the coding so im just curious.

[garrbear758]

I might be wrong, but I believe that the issue is one that is very difficult to create a dev fix for.

This is really the reason this hasn't been done.

Is there any expanse on this? I thought the reason why it was so difficult was the same reason custom classes werent available, or spellbooks.

I have no real experience with the coding so im just curious.

Two different issues.

Custom spellbooks means we could give pale master a spellbook. We could give them the wizard/sorc spellbook, but they would still be treated as a seperate class with a different spellbook, similarly to how a wizard 15 sorc 15 would have two level 15 spellbooks rather than one level 30 spellbook, even though mechanically wizard and sorc use the exact same spells.2da column (which is where we pick which spells and what spell level each spellbook has access to).

There is currently no way to have them continue to gain sorcerer spells known on palemaster levels, unless we did a super janky workaround involving nested dialogue menus and probably a lot of bugs. If anyone knows of a way to do it properly or has seen it done on another server I would love to know, but until then or unless beamdog adds the functionality it likely won't happen.

[Dreams]

One fix for this would be to allow a 20sorcerer/10pm spread access to the bonus feats that a 14wiz/16pm would net. Tie it in to only this combination to prevent div CHA stacking. Wizards get plenty more bonus feats as it is, this might help because it would allow a sorcerer access to choosing the spells for those levels.

If arcane class > Normal PM progression
If sorcerer 18 > Quicker PM progression

[Shrouded Wanderer]

This is really the reason this hasn't been done.

Is there any expanse on this? I thought the reason why it was so difficult was the same reason custom classes werent available, or spellbooks.

I have no real experience with the coding so im just curious.

Two different issues.

Custom spellbooks means we could give pale master a spellbook. We could give them the wizard/sorc spellbook, but they would still be treated as a seperate class with a different spellbook, similarly to how a wizard 15 sorc 15 would have two level 15 spellbooks rather than one level 30 spellbook, even though mechanically wizard and sorc use the exact same spells.2da column (which is where we pick which spells and what spell level each spellbook has access to).

There is currently no way to have them continue to gain sorcerer spells known on palemaster levels, unless we did a super janky workaround involving nested dialogue menus and probably a lot of bugs. If anyone knows of a way to do it properly or has seen it done on another server I would love to know, but until then or unless beamdog adds the functionality it likely won't happen.

Wouldnt a good workaround possibly be to have palemaster not actually give spells upon a level, but increase spell casting progression upon the next sorcerer level


For example if i take 3 sorcerer levels then 10 PM levels immediately, then take that 4th spell level, grant a choice from the 9th sorcerer progression chart and not the 4th level sorcerer progression chart?


This would obviously mean that they would gain less learned spells total, but still allow them to progress normally as a wizard would. Which is how it works with wizard in any case.


Now om not sure if thats possible to implement but that type of progression works with wizard which is why it always seems so odd sorcerer isnt treated the same way.


But most of the time people talk about this it seems to be in the context of giving PMs spells to pick on PM levels, when it should be about just giving sorcerers the progression that wizards get in relative form

One fix for this would be to allow a 20sorcerer/10pm spread access to the bonus feats that a 14wiz/16pm would net. Tie it in to only this combination to prevent div CHA stacking. Wizards get plenty more bonus feats as it is, this might help because it would allow a sorcerer access to choosing the spells for those levels.

If arcane class > Normal PM progression
If sorcerer 18 > Quicker PM progression

Probably a better idea would be to have a path for sorcerers that on the 10th pm level they get the perks. That way you cant stack trueflame with crit immunities

[Drowboy]

If anyone knows of a way to do it properly or has seen it done on another server I would love to know, but until then or unless beamdog adds the functionality it likely won't happen.

The only server I've seen with "functioning" prcs for sorcs does it with a similar kludge to the one you mentioned: they've got a table that's basically

Spell name x / spell id y

And you plug in a chat command to add x spells every time you level in the prc. It's... Fine? It's not good, for sure, and it's buggy, and it was crashing their server for a while there. Dunno.

[DM Rex]

The issue with with palemaster is the same reason why life would be difficult with any two casting types. It does and should behave like a wizard.

If you go trueflame 20 palemaster 10 (or along those lines), you can't summon anything anyway. Things apart from Evocation are blocked. You would only do this to gain the immunities.

I don't find palemasters should be getting their spells earlier on a specific class pairing, for sorcerers not doing trueflame they can't get the 16 blackguard levels needed for epic fiendish servant either. When it comes to a prestige class like PM or BG I think those limits are balanced. Though the 16 BG levels isn't inhibited by not having your 9th tier spells which could be an alternative.

An accelerated path for one, would have to be an accelerated path for all. I don't see that being balanced in my perspective.

[Shrouded Wanderer]

As far as i can tell it just seems like the caster progression for Palemaster and the caster progression for sorcerer are not added together as they are with bard or wizard, both bard and wizard seem to gain the 1/2 spell progression as normal.


Its very odd but im wondering if that is infact fixable

[garrbear758]

As far as i can tell it just seems like the caster progression for Palemaster and the caster progression for sorcerer are not added together as they are with bard or wizard, both bard and wizard seem to gain the 1/2 spell progression as normal.


Its very odd but im wondering if that is infact fixable

They aren't different. They still get spells per day from 1/2 pm levels like wizard. Neither gain spells known, but wizard can overcome this with scrolls while bards/sorcs cannot.

[Bunnysmack]

As far as i can tell it just seems like the caster progression for Palemaster and the caster progression for sorcerer are not added together as they are with bard or wizard, both bard and wizard seem to gain the 1/2 spell progression as normal.


Its very odd but im wondering if that is infact fixable

Upon reaching pale master levels 1, 3, 5, 7, and 9, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in his highest caster class (bard, sorcerer or wizard). He does not learn any new spells through this ability, but for wizards it can allow higher-level spells to be learned through other means (i.e. from scrolls or later leveling as a wizard).

-Taken from the NWNwiki page for pale masters.

Based on this it does seem like Sorcerer does gain spell progression. By that, I mean they get more spells per day, as if they obtained a new sorcerer level, when they hit the above noted odd-numbered levels of pale master. They do not, however, gain the opportunity to learn new spells at these levels, but neither do wizards for that matter (Bards don't either, as far as I know).

Having played a wizard PM, I remember being really paranoid about my spell pics on the wizard levels because I knew I wouldn't get any for my PM levels and had to make sure I got some of the spells that can't be added to scrolls.

TLDR: It isn't a difference in spell progression, it's the coding problem from the base game that, for some reason, the makers of NWN decided that those pale master levels would not let an arcane caster learn any new spells. For wizards, that is a somewhat minor concern because they can learn from scrolls. For sorcerers...Yeah. Big problem.

[Flower Power]

I might be wrong, but I believe that the issue is one that is very difficult to create a dev fix for.

As a side note, I would caution that any fix for sorcerer+Pale Master should come hand-in-hand with a nerf that prevents the use of divine shield if using this class. Pale masters are tanky enough as is without dumping all their casting stat on top of their already impressive AC. In anticipation of the counter-argument: Yes, the +20 dodge AC cap would partially limit this concern, but it would still allow for an estimated +5 AC to a endgame pale master, which equates to an additional 25% evade chance against attacks, on top of all their other AC. It would also mean that any abilities that debuff AC will have limited effectiveness as the divine shielded PM will be rocking close to an additional +9 AC that can replace whatever gets debuffed.

What if, and hear me out now, what if we finally capped the saves bonus from Divine/Dark Grace, and the AC bonus from Divine Shield, to the total number of Blackguard/Paladin levels you have and put the pin in the DIV-dip meta.

[Blossom]

TLDR: It isn't a difference in spell progression, it's the coding problem from the base game that, for some reason, the makers of NWN decided that those pale master levels would not let an arcane caster learn any new spells. For wizards, that is a somewhat minor concern because they can learn from scrolls. For sorcerers...Yeah. Big problem.

"For some reason" is it's a 40-level game and we're limiting to 30 levels. That and pale master casters in regular NWN don't have a lot of reason to go beyond 10 levels (they get a lot of custom perks here) so something like 26 sorc/10 PM/4 BG with a complete spellbook would be the norm. The NWN designers made some odd choices I grant you but I would not blame them for not foreseeing Arelith house rules.

[Shrouded Wanderer]

As far as i can tell it just seems like the caster progression for Palemaster and the caster progression for sorcerer are not added together as they are with bard or wizard, both bard and wizard seem to gain the 1/2 spell progression as normal.


Its very odd but im wondering if that is infact fixable

They aren't different. They still get spells per day from 1/2 pm levels like wizard. Neither gain spells known, but wizard can overcome this with scrolls while bards/sorcs cannot.

This isnt what im refering to.


Im talking specifically about the spellcasting progression.

Sorcerers spell circle gains do not gain while taking palemaster class levels

Wizards do.

As i said before a wizard only needs to have 3 levels in wizard to have access to 9th circle spells

A sorcerer requires a minimum of 18 levels because they do not gain any progression of spellcasting.

They still gain the spell slots, CL for each school

But they cannot learn any higher circle spells while taking anything other than sorcerer (or i presume RDD) levels.


For example here. If i take 3 levels of sorcerer and 10 levels of palemaster

I then have 8 Caster levels for all except necromancy

13 CL for necromancy

Spell slots of a 8th level sorcerer

But i can only cast 2nd circle spells whereas a wizard of the same level can cast up to 4th circle spells.


My suggestion is simply (figuratively speaking) to have palemaster levels continue to unlock spell circles so that the next time a sorcerer level is taken they can select the spell of the appropriate level rather than allowing PM to be able to select spells


If that makes sense


"TLDR: It isn't a difference in spell progression, it's the coding problem from the base game that, for some reason, the makers of NWN decided that those pale master levels would not let an arcane caster learn any new spells. For wizards, that is a somewhat minor concern because they can learn from scrolls. For sorcerers...Yeah. Big problem."


Well its less learning spells on a PM level and more that the PM levels do not count for spell circle progression for sorcerers