Wakizashi Nerf

[Skibbles]

This really seemed to come out of nowhere. What was the reason for this?

(Recap: Shield AC changed to Deflection AC - the most used & unstackable AC in the game)

The Shield spell (+4 deflection) costs 50 gold per use, comes built into a ton of items, and immediately overpowers a deflection modifier between 1-3 (iron to Mdamask), so these weapons are now just bricked exotic short swords. Protection from alignment, mage armor, and shield of faith also further batter this previously neat item into dust.

I've never seen anyone, other than myself on two characters, use this weapon before.

Was there some exploit going on? This weapon seemed to have a lot of great flavor.

It took me two months to sell a Master Damask Wakizashi with a +4 Divine Essence on top (the cost of the weapon being easily 60k to make on average).... and I couldn't sell it until I marked it down to 10k. That was before the nerf. What happened here?

[Kenji]

It’s been made into a weapon instead of a sword-looking shield. It is not a nerf, but a change. Your argument of deflection/shield AC doesn’t hold when all of the wakizashis have been returned to any other weapon stats.

Wakizashi is now also a Cav weapon, mainly for small sized dex cavaliers like what katanas are to medium-sized dex cavs.

As for before the Cav change, its main use was for Healer/Monks to get better Shield AC than it’s intended use of dual-wielding. Monks also lose UBAB if they wielded wakizashi in the off-hand so they weren’t a popular choice to begin with.

They are now given a purpose and you’ll likely have a better chance at selling your wakizashis now than before.

You’re welcome.

[Watchful Glare]

I think Skibbles understands the change; what they are asking is why and what was the idea behind it. I don't have any stakes on it, but I am curious about it myself, that said.

[Skibbles]

I don't understand how my argument doesn't hold when 50 gold and 5 lore, an adamantium shield bracer, or brooch of shielding, makes the weapon's defining attribute completely irrelevant, or that a simple protection from evil will most likely cover all but the master damask version - netting you a whole 1 deflection for the investment of the exotic feat unless you're playing the completely specific halfling cavalier.

Is it possible that there could just be a divine casting penalty on it, just like arcane, if that was the unintended use? It seems really heavy handed to punish everyone that dual wielded it - just to get at healer/monks.

Maybe this is an Underdark thing - since there are no cavaliers that I know of in the Underdark - so for at least a decent section of the population I have a hard time swallowing this as something I should be thankful for.

[garrbear758]

It was only being used by casters. That was not the intent of the weapon, so we changed it.

[Skibbles]

Well... that's a shame then. I take it there's probably no divine casting penalty attribute in NWN that could easily fix this.

Thanks for the swift responses.

[Itikar]

I know of at least a kobold rogue who legit used it as an off-hand weapons for shield ac, while he got deflection from other sources, namely shield potions.

What can I say, it's sad to see a nice weapon go. I am skeptic as to whether they will become more popular, but we shall see in the coming weeks, I suppose.

[Ork]

A big note about shield spell, it is on the breach list (as is mage armor, shield of faith, etc.)

[Skibbles]

A big note about shield spell, it is on the breach list (as is mage armor, shield of faith, etc.)

It only takes half a round to restore with a potion so I wouldn't be going out of my way to use a weapon, and certainly not waste a whole feat on it, that only had value during this short period.

Not to mention it won't stack with any helmet.

I don't like the change, especially if its really just for halfling cavaliers who should be using a dale short sword in its place anyway. It really seems to me there could have been so many other ways to get around monk/healer.

It seems like something could have solved this easier without gimping anyone who used it appropriately, and I certainly sympathize with anyone who spent an exotic feat for it. I'm really glad I've already rolled my ranger that made great use of the weapon by taking the feat. It's really weird to me that this wasn't considered a nerf.

Edit to add minor bug report: The weapon still says it has a -3 attack bonus in its description. I did some brief testing before putting it in storage and it looks like it is still applying the penalty (or the one-handed edge focus feats aren't working with it - I'm not sure which). It's giving me the same attack bonus as a bronze weapon I just bought to test it with.

[Kenji]

Wakizashi had their innate AC bonus removed. If it had shield AC before, then deflection AC can be found from another source (albeit helmets or Shield spell). Your argument about how Wakizashi's deflection AC isn't comparable to Shield spell's deflection AC is simply not relevant due to Wakizashi's main purpose (before and now) was never to provide deflection AC in the first place.

Wakizashi's change from Shield AC to Deflection AC is simply following every other weapon's design. So this whole debate about how Shield spell AC makes Wakizashi's Deflection AC redundant is moot. If one tries to argue that Shield spell's def AC makes Bastard Sword, Katana, Scimitar, Rapier, Scythe, or any other weapon's Deflection AC pointless, you can see how baffling that can be.

As for your feelings about whether you like the change or not, I provide no sympathy nor guilt seeing as changes come and go. This overreaction and wall of texts about how "others" other than yourself are affected don't really add anything to the feedback.

Players can still dual-wield Wakizashis now whereas before they were "supposed" to only have it on the off-hand. If anything, the aesthetics are more consistent as players can choose to dual-wield Wakizashis if they'd like rather than only 1 wakizashi alone. The main change here is mechanics, and I'd rather see you point out how it can be a net loss of 2 AC compared to Shield Skleen while dual-wielding than some arbitrary changes to a player's playstyle.

Also, new Wakizashis should have their invisible ASF and AB Malus removed. If for some reason they remain on the old ones, please post it in the bug report forums and provide as much detail as you can.

[Normolomue]

I loved the wakasahi on my duel wield ranger. The AC was a big help I though it a good trade off for no AB on the offhand weapon but a shield AC bonus instead. Also the good ones cant be runed either.

I think a better fix for the caster problem would have been more spell failure IMO.

[Kenji]

From what I've gathered, Arcane Spell Failure is the only property that can be put on an equippable item via .2da edits.

As for Spell Failure that'd apply to all types of casters, it'd then apply to rangers and paladins where those casting with wakizashi in hand shouldn't suffer from Spell Failure.

Another approach would have been scripting Spell Failure (much like riding on horses without Mounted Combat) onto dedicated casters such as Healer or Shaman, but then some odd RP builds that might do 3 level dip in those while being other types of casters (ranger or paladin) will suffer the same Spell Failure.

It's possible to do further conditionals to check if Healer or Shaman levels are in the majority but at this point, it's very counter-intuitive and not worth the tinkering imo.

[Skibbles]

Is there some reason you're being consistently snide in this thread Kenji?

You’re welcome.

As for your feelings about whether you like the change or not, I provide no sympathy nor guilt seeing as changes come and go. This overreaction and wall of texts about how "others" other than yourself are affected don't really add anything to the feedback.

Nobody is asking for your sympathy, and I find your direct personal attack on 'walls of text' to not only be outwardly rude but the 'pot calling the kettle' given that a quick word counter says that I have used (besides this post) 566 words and you've used 547.

I was happy to overlook the initial sarcasm, but almost a full week later you're still making rude remarks. Dial it back please.

Now I'd like to get to the mechanics, and what the update thread said, because I'm starting to think there is a miscommunication somewhere.

Wakizashi:
- Changed Shield AC back to Deflection AC
- Can now be equipped on mainhand
- Has AB penalties removed

Wakizashi had their innate AC bonus removed.

The update thread never mentioned having the AC bonus removed, and this can be further verified by equipping one of these weapons in game right now (unless the one I have in storage and am using to test is somehow bugged).

It provides +3 deflection AC as it was advertised in the update thread.

Therefore:

Your argument about how Wakizashi's deflection AC isn't comparable to Shield spell's deflection AC is simply not relevant due to Wakizashi's main purpose (before and now) was never to provide deflection AC in the first place.

Wakizashi's change from Shield AC to Deflection AC is simply following every other weapon's design. So this whole debate about how Shield spell AC makes Wakizashi's Deflection AC redundant is moot. If one tries to argue that Shield spell's def AC makes Bastard Sword, Katana, Scimitar, Rapier, Scythe, or any other weapon's Deflection AC pointless, you can see how baffling that can be.

All of this is objectively false which compounds how rude you've been thus far. It is highly relevent because all I have to go on is the update thread, and what I can see in game.

Now if the intention was to make the wakizashi a very feat-heavy, or class specific shortsword - that's fine - and a discussion could be had about the intention versus the current reality later.

A lot of changes were made to a lot of weapons, and a class overhaul on top, so I find it entirely understandable that somewhere along the way the intention, or communication, of a change was accidentally overlooked.

That's why I'm talking about the mechanics of stacking with potions/helmets and its viability as it can be used in game at this exact moment.

Please, though, dial it back. Or at least let's be on the same page first.

Edit: Also thank you for investigating whether or not a 'divine spell failure' could be a thing.

[Kenji]

Apologies for the dismissive tone earlier, there were a lot of projects, feedbacks, and debugging to go through and the class overhaul is taking more time and energy than I had anticipated. It can be especially taxing when I had to go through feedbacks that are oftentimes filled with subjective opinions of likes or dislikes, emotional rants, and tangential topics before getting to the actual point. Keep in mind that this statement does not directly apply to your other two posts, please don't take it personally.

Moving on to what's relevant.

Here are the intended changes that weren't announced because the changes to the base item were relatively extensive. The announcement wasn't complete the first go-around as it took more investigation and reports to get the full scope of what needed to be done.

Any future crafted Wakizashis:
Invisible ASF chance removed
AB Penalty removed
AC Bonus removed
AC type swapped from Shield to Deflection
Removed off-hand only limitations
Should behave like any other weapons
Certain weapon spells should no longer provide AC bonus to the weapon, but AB, instead.

Existing Wakizashis:
The scripts that attempt to change existing wakizashis en masse didn't work out as intended. As a result, the old wakizashi stats and malus remained. This is what most thought the wakizashi changes mainly were and the observation here is that only AC type changed from Shield to Deflection.

Remaining changes to be investigated:
The high-end wakizashis still need to be changed to allow runes to be applied.
Scripts aren't dealing with existing wakizashis properly - at this point, I'd like to focus on other projects as the fix I have in mind only bloats the script load. Players can always just make new wakizashis instead of clinging to the old ones.

[Skibbles]

[The Reponse]

Thanks for taking the time to unpack it all so I can understand what happened.

Given the Waki is probably tabled in favor of much more important things I'll mention for posterity my hope that something will return to it to give it the exotic vibe it once had. Unless I'm mistaken it appears identical to the Short Sword which already is bottom tier aside from The Dale Sword, but requires the exotic feat for no discernible advantage.

Anyway thanks again for hashing it out. I never would have figured out there was an issue with existing weapons versus new ones.

[AstralUniverse]

I *think* Kenji meant it still gives +3 deflection AC.

[Skibbles]

Hmm now I'm confused again, but I also think (he's said twice now that AC was removed) that the AC was removed AND switched to deflection just so you can't basin shield AC onto it.

[Kenji]

I *think* Kenji meant it still gives +3 deflection AC.

There shouldn't be +3 Deflection AC nor should there be any -3 AB for any newly crafted Damask and MDamask ones anymore.

If any +Deflection AC or -AB is still observed from any newly crafted wakizashis, please post the weapon tier to the bug report forum.

[AstralUniverse]

Thanks for the clarification Kenji.

I cant help but joining the comment above. It seems about identical to Shot Sword but it requires exotic prof so what's the weapon's identity other than a random feat tax?

[Kenji]

The change for wakizashi is the first step to make the item an actual weapon before anything else can be done for the weapon.

Wakizashi (along with katana and light flail) are now finessable Cavalry weapons with Wakizashi capable of being wielded with a shield for small-sized cavaliers. Short sword (specifically a dale sword) isn't a cavalry weapon and, while they can charge with it, the bonus isn't as significant. Other small races (wild dwarves and gnomes) that become cavaliers also don't have access to Dale Swords and will have to invest in UMD in order to get Scourge Flail.

But what about those that don't take cav? How does that apply to them? Is it justified to tie that one weapon to one class alone?

If we look at all of the monk weapons that scale with UBAB: quarterstaff, kama, shuriken, naginata, sai, and club, they are all 20 x2. Naginata got nerfed from 20 x3 to 20 x2, katanas (19-20 x2) had their UBAB scaling disabled. The aforementioned UBAB weapons are suboptimal to any non-monks to wield and the same rationale applies to wakizashi here.

However, now that the transformation for wakizashi is almost complete, we can now look into making a special racial or class wakizashi. As for the exact details, I will not be disclosing any yet, pending a full discussion with the rest of the team.