Grimoires and UMD requirement.

[Gracklstugh]

I will start by saying I really appreciate the fact that UMD got some love and I truly believe that some diversity from the given lore meta is an awesome thing.

This being said, I do think the 35 UMD requirement needed to cast some very powerful spells using these books is a bit too low. We are looking at a skill dump (locked under a few specific classes, that's true) and two rings and voilà, everyone is able to cast Time Stop.

This is basically a death sentence for any spellcaster that would face let's say a barbarian for example. Stop time/ dispel, position yourself behind the spellcaster/ rage, wait for the TS to expire, IKD and it's over.

I am aware there are other specific items IG that provide access to the Time Stop spell but those are single charge based (afaik) and by any means NOT easy to find.

Now I do think these grimoires are awesome and I do see their purpose but right now the skill investment vs the reward is a bargain. I do not wish to turn this into a suggestion but my closing thoughts would be, if we lock these under 45 UMD - requiring ESF UMD and thus sacrificing a feat just for this, it would justify the return of investment and reduce what it seems to be right now the raise of mundane builds that all of a sudden have access to one of the most powerful end game spells.

Thanks for reading!

[Watchful Glare]

I did mention when they were first released, that give it a month or two until their existance becomes widely known (as they were not described in updates, IIRC, I may be wrong) as well as where to get them and we would eventually see the impact they actually have. Back then it was too soon to tell. So far I've seen them in every confrontation I've been a part of, or that I've heard about. Picking a class with access to UMD (3 level dip) now grants you access to the following spells (instant cast):

Time Stop
Gate
Word of Faith
Acid Sheathe (high cast level)
Premonition
Greater Spell Mantle
Greater Stoneskin
Greater Spell Breach
Mind Blank
Banishment
Dismissal
Mass Haste
Protection from Spells

(Among others)

And if you can grind for them by raiding the places they drop at, at no cost either (unlike scrolls which required an economic investment). Not even taking into account the difference between getting an entire inventory full of Lore items, and taking EFS Lore to meet the requirements, or just picking a class with UMD and drinking an eagle's potion.

The characters I play are glad for this; it's really good on the finances because now I get all of these for free and I have the means to simply harvest them like you'd harvest Fireberries on your free time when you feel like it. However the side effect is that any character created that's aware of these things being commonplace from now on, can and will account for their existance. I've seen them used in every single fight I've heard about since by anyone that cares and/or pursues PvP in any way. They're commonplace now.

Furthermore- Some of those, such as the Timestop/Premonition book can be used by Outsiders at no UMD cost. Unless I am mistaken, 5% classes such as Tieflings and Aasimars count as Outsiders meaning they can use such books without the UMD score. Possibly I'm wrong, don't jump the shark on this one I haven't tested it.

I wasn't active in this sever when Loremageddon happened but to my (admittedly ignorant, I'll say right now, I'm basing this on things I heard in passing, mind you) that happened because every build had to fit UMD in it in order to be able to use those very same abilities I described as well as wands or be ran over by someone that did the same thing as them but could also use them. So in essence things eventually gravitated to everyone taking 3 Rogue or 3 Bard in their builds as a mandatory thing. Sure, you can say not really mandatory it's not like someone pulled up at your house, put a gun to your head and told you you either took a UMD class or he'd shoot you and eat your dog, but if you wanted your character to also be on the same level you had to do it.

This change has had me scratching me cheek a bit because I feel I missed something, somewhere. I like it because it's convenient for my characters, makes my life easier by nullyfying the cost of all of that. Now I can cast Timestop, Premonition, Word of Faith whenever I feel like it and not have to go, Ugh, I should be more conservative, these things are like 3k each...

However I'm uncertain it's... Good at large. I've seen someone go for the Terminator build, 23 Barb, 4 Fighter, 3 Specialist.

878 HP, 51 AB, over 1000 dmg a round, detection, able to corner stealth, casts Premonition, Gate, Acid Sheathe, Greater Spell Breach, Protection from Spells to nullify weakness to Reflex Saves, Mind Blank just in case, Greater Spell Mantle at the drop of a hat. Drop below half-HP with your pray spent, instant-cast Time-Stop from book and you're dead. It's beautiful. Also incredibly nasty.

My character can use all of those things and has more access to them, so they could just dance around them making them spend every bit of it, and eventually come out on top. However, I'm not sure anyone else (Or their regular non-UMD counterparts) can do anything other than shrug and go "Guess I'll die" when fighting someone that also knows what they're doing with those spells, and those abilities.

I'm missing something probably, and I don't have the data on it either so take my words with a grain of salt. Could we get some insight on it however?

[Morgy]

I think these books may be a tad strong, imo. Having access to five time stops from one book is hugely strong. They are not really that rare, either.

Mord gems, timestop clock items, etc, are balanced because they have a single charge. Do they need UMD investment? No. But UMD investment is already a strong investment for wand/item use, so it is a fairly flexible skill beyond just investing for book use.

[Gracklstugh]

Also, the Time Stop effect can be paired up with the Rods of Anti-Magic for the ultimate caster agony. Time Stop is such a powerful tool because it allows a player to reposition and target the casters very easy. The dmg immunity doesn't mean much because as soon as the timer goes, you will be most likely knocked down and dead within a round. Shotgun builds + Time Stop and other nasty spells = very, very sad builds that rely much on positioning and keeping the distance.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

Prior to loremageddon, how much UMD did it take to use timestop scrolls?

[Curve]

15

[Drowboy]

Like 15. And you know what? It was fine.

Having to burn a third class to get the utility and power of scrolls was balanced against running 3 full offense classes and still is.

Just say what you mean with your whole chest: "I don't like having time stop or WoF deployed against me."

There's not going to be a set of parameters or restrictions that change that.

[garrbear758]

Gotta agree with Drowboy. This whole post is ignoring the fact that you have to give up your third "power-class" for a umd dip.

[Gracklstugh]

Actually, I did mention the specific class requirement and I am totally in agreement with keeping the items as they are in terms of charges and such. What I'm saying it should be harder to use by locking under 45 UMD, at least requiring an ESF feat investment. We can't use as reference numbers from a few years ago since the UMD meta shifted towards lore. You got more skill points all over the board, new classes, spell changes etc... Just my two cents.

[AstralUniverse]

What I'm saying it should be harder to use by locking under 45 UMD, at least requiring an ESF feat investment.

I respectfully disagree. I think UMD dips have been falling behind for a while (hells, until these books I'd dip swash for martial weapons on cleric or fs, instead of UMD dip because of how useless it had been). I think also taxing an epic feat would be too much and defeat the entire purpose of adding these books. at 45 umd they would be fairly cheap in the market and hoarded by far fewer characters and pile dust in shops. That's not good.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

Like 15. And you know what? It was fine.

That's what I thought. I remember hearing a lot of people talking about timestop and how only bads would blow it at the beginning of the fight, how there was strategy in when you did it. I don't think anything major has changed in strategy that would make having timestop more available any different than it was before.

And 35 isn't a casual investment either. It means that UMD needs to end up on gear. How many pieces depends on how much of a dump stat charisma is. Having enchanted equipment for people, the soft 5 set people generally go for doesn't really afford many skills. So you're going to have to give up another skill for it. And giving up a feat for it? That's an entire feat not being spent on other useful things. As it stands there's sacrifice involved in being able to use these books. At 45 UMD you're moving this out of use for most people, which defeats the purpose of them existing.

Timestop used to be really common to see, my guess is everyone got complacent with it going away and forgot how to deal with it. Does this tie into the issue of constitution becoming a dump stat?

[Aren]

The issue arises when you can play a 860hp face tank barb with edr2 wielding falchions, dealing close to weapon master damage, at 50+ ab, getting a hard CC aura at DC 32-38+ vs something that cripples you hard, while getting +8 to willsaves under the effects of rage, Clearing CCs every 30 seconds, being almost immune to sneaks because how uncanny dodge works in EE, having quite decent saves, while also being able to use the new tomes for Greater Breach, Greater Stone Skin, Gate, WoF, Prot From Spells, acid sheath, Mindblank, Time stop etc.

(Inb4: yeah but you can CC the barb or kill them out of rage or bring more people or play this specific build to counter etc.)

[Drowboy]

most of those problems you listed are the barb chassis (and falchion existing, which, gross)

[garrbear758]

The issue arises when you can play a 860hp face tank barb with edr2 wielding falchions, dealing close to weapon master damage, at 50+ ab, getting a hard CC aura at DC 32-38+ vs something that cripples you hard, while getting +8 to willsaves under the effects of rage, being almost immune to sneaks because how uncanny dodge works in EE, having quite decent saves, while also being able to use the new tomes for Greater Breach, Greater Stone Skin, Gate, WoF, Prot From Spells, acid sheath, Mindblank, Time stop etc.

(Inb4: yeah but you can CC the barb or kill them out of rage or bring more people or play this specific build to counter etc.)

That's very clearly an issue with barbarian then not umd, and all of the spells you listed except gate and timestop are very easily accessible with lore and minimal gear investment.

[stoneheart-]

The issue with the time stop book is less that it has time stop on it (though tbh I have been enjoying an arelith with time stop only in the hands of arcane casters) and more that it's INSTANT ACTION time stop. That is extremely strong, and doesn't have the counterplay it did before. Before, you could counter a time stop scroll with one of your own, or do something like knock them down before they read it if you were quick enough on the draw, but now you can't. It's just an instant button press.

If this can't be addressed (giving it an activation/wind-up time), I do think this should be removed from the books.

[Zavandar]

20/7/3... rise...!

I played plenty pre-loremageddon. With books, we're almost back to what it was back then. And since then, many builds got an extra 66 skill points to play with, so it's an easy investment. There are two major differences:

1. Builds without umd can use lore instead
2. Books are instant and scrolls are not

Looking at 1, let's make some comparisons to some of the more popular builds

25/5 fighter wm reverts to ye olde 20/7/3. Loses some ab and 2 feats, gets crit range, full tumble (so same ac), but also gets umd and doesn't have to go through the huge investment of 80 lore.

26/4 barb fighter. Goes 23/4/3. That "terminator" build was already explained so I won't go into detail.

27/3 cleric or fs. Some people dipped swash for martial and tumble. P much all will now go umd for harm and time stop shenanigans.

Wiz and sorc can already cast these so won't go into detail.

21 4 5 swash fighter wm. SoL. Not a bad, but def misses time stop.

Heavy pal usually dipped umd anyway because they didn't need to consider swash for tumble.

Warlocks have umd (and with blasts could get spooky)

Caster healer clerics usually dipped monk for ac. Hard for them to get time stop.

Loremaster made relatively worse because 50 lore for extra cl wof scrolls + books is better than 80 lore for time stop and mords since those don't care about your scroll cl (mords is almost exclusively used for breaching by loremasters).

Ranger aa monk won't be dropping anything anything umd. It's not as big of a deal for them either, though.

Heavy cot was often fighter paladin cot. You might see rogue paladin instead, or bard.

Bards have umd. Rogues have umd. Assassins have umd.

Heavy monk probably doesn't include umd dips but you might see them try to pick it up again.

The point I am illustrating is that many good builds already had umd and they got made better (restored to what they were before). Trading out some classes does come with a sacrifice for some builds, but many of these sacrifices are gladly made because of how strong the books are. That leads to number 2.

Instant time stop is big spooky.

It's not really "instant" depending on where you are in your combat round, but it definitely fires off quicker than scrolls. Yeah, you're not counter time stopping with a book... but you wouldn't be able to counter time stop a book'd time stop anyway.

I'm of 2 minds about this because it can be really difficult to secure kills with stickiness problems (which I know sprint attempted to resolve but that's a different subject), but all of the above should be noted regardless.

I think if these books could be made to function like scrolls (like fire after a delay), it would be better. Idk if that is possible as I am ignorant where coding is concerned.

Edit:
Another thought? Yeet books but make umd also count towards reading scrolls. That way someone with 33 lore and 33 umd is already at 66 before gearing. Puts a loremaser at 79 (after 10 from lm and sf lore). Int pushes a lm to 80 very snuggly.

[Aren]

The issue arises when you can play a 860hp face tank barb with edr2 wielding falchions, dealing close to weapon master damage, at 50+ ab, getting a hard CC aura at DC 32-38+ vs something that cripples you hard, while getting +8 to willsaves under the effects of rage, being almost immune to sneaks because how uncanny dodge works in EE, having quite decent saves, while also being able to use the new tomes for Greater Breach, Greater Stone Skin, Gate, WoF, Prot From Spells, acid sheath, Mindblank, Time stop etc.

(Inb4: yeah but you can CC the barb or kill them out of rage or bring more people or play this specific build to counter etc.)

That's very clearly an issue with barbarian then not umd, and all of the spells you listed except gate and timestop are very easily accessible with lore and minimal gear investment.

Scrolls are a full round action that cannot be animation cancelled.

[AstralUniverse]

Another thought? Yeet books but make umd also count towards reading scrolls. That way someone with 33 lore and 33 umd is already at 66 before gearing. Puts a loremaser at 79 (after 10 from lm and sf lore). Int pushes a lm to 80 very snuggly.

Thats not gonna happen. You know it. I know it. But it's an interesting idea.

I do 100% agree with your summery, and we literally just said on discord that the instant action aspect of the books are really the only concerning part in whatever 'meta-shift' they are causing. Barbarian needs to be looked at, also.

[WaldoT]

I think the books are balanced enough. I could see the argument to have some of the UMD requirements raised requiring slightly more investment. Or have some of the charges on the items reduced. Although UMD is much harder to gear than lore because there are very few UMD items. There are less classes that can grab UMD every class can grab lore at little to no cost. Dips for UMD were often ignored in favor of another kind of dip.

One thing I would ask though is can tieflings and aasimars use the outsider restricted books without UMD investment?

[Naghast]

ok since for some reason i was asked to post my thoughts i have rn abt the books here, well, here it is.

i think they're pretty cool. i do like that they offer much, much more benefit from having use magic device than just wands (15 umd) and +4 weapons (30 umd)
but on the other hand, some of the effects (in my opinion) are much too powerful for how easily accessible it is

i'm fine with ppl having books of gate and timestop, but maybe the umd requirement for said books could be bumped to like, 45 or 50. but that's all the issues i have with the books. overall a cool addition.

edit for small addition:
i know it technically still requires you to dip a class, but frankly, skill dips (like bard/rogue/specialist/etc.) are already a fairly common thing that 75% of the population uses. and ppl also invest 30 umd quite often for them sweet +4 weapons on their builds. so it's not necessarily burning a class slot.

[Shadowy Reality]

I remember back before loremaggedon that a lot of people argued that Timestops were balanced because one could always counter it with their own, that this added skill to the game.

With books being instant, I guess this is no longer the case and is the aspect that worries me the most. Why not just give them the scroll animation? Like you tear a page from the book and read it.

[Wrips]

One thing I would ask though is can tieflings and aasimars use the outsider restricted books without UMD investment?

No. They can't.

[In Sorrow We Trust]

The issue arises when you can play a 860hp face tank barb with edr2 wielding falchions, dealing close to weapon master damage, at 50+ ab, getting a hard CC aura at DC 32-38+ vs something that cripples you hard, while getting +8 to willsaves under the effects of rage, being almost immune to sneaks because how uncanny dodge works in EE, having quite decent saves, while also being able to use the new tomes for Greater Breach, Greater Stone Skin, Gate, WoF, Prot From Spells, acid sheath, Mindblank, Time stop etc.

(Inb4: yeah but you can CC the barb or kill them out of rage or bring more people or play this specific build to counter etc.)

That's very clearly an issue with barbarian then not umd, and all of the spells you listed except gate and timestop are very easily accessible with lore and minimal gear investment.

Scrolls are a full round action that cannot be animation cancelled.

Well, you can still cancel the animation on scrolls. Just not the delay.

And that sometimes gets buggy.

[Tarkus the dog]

I think it's pointless to argue how meta-changing these books are this early as it usually takes a couple of months if not a year for a point to be driven home -- What annoys me really is that every large-scale PvP that I've seen consists of 75% of the time spent being frozen in time.

Not ideally my vision for healthy PvP environment.

[Eters]

If we are using "Timestop being cast with 15 UMD was fine." argument, can we just cancel the Loremaggedon and go back to have scrolls on 15 UMD? If we're doing a full circle, then why even bother?