Listen Seems To Get Inordinately High With Bards

[La Villa Strangiato]

Ever since a recent update to bard, I've noticed and heard a lot of talk about how many bards can get absurdly high Listen, due to Amplify and Bard Song. These uptimes for the skill increase also last a pretty long time.

To use an example, a certain character I'm aware of in Cordor gets around 100 Listen. My 24/6 rogue/fighter gets about 88 Move Silently, with Dust of Silence on. This basically means I am guaranteed to be heard if I sneak into Cordor around this character.

Moreover, a friend's 10/4/16 rogue/fighter/shadowdancer can get up to 99 move silently, using Dust of Silence. They have remarked that they can be heard by more than one bard character, since it seems that Amplify and Bard Song put it into high 80s to high 90s.

I haven't done any build testing of a bard on PGCC, so I don't know the precise numbers. But I think that those numbers seem a little much for a non-dedicated spot/listen build to reach, especially due to their ability to totally dunk on even dedicated stealthers. I have no issue if I'm spotted as a rogue occasionally, particularly due to stuff like True Sight (since it's so brief). Being spotted is kind of part of the territory sometimes. But the fact that a couple presses of a button, especially with stuff like Lasting Inspiration and extended Amplify uptime, can totally invalidate me and get everyone in an area on my back, feels somewhat unbalanced.

If you're playing a bard right now, feel free to post your Listen score fully buffed. If you're playing a stealther, feel free to post your Move Silently. Otherwise, chip in in a friendly manner and share your opinion on the numbers.

[xanrael]

Bards being able to get insane listen scores isn't anything new, though they have to invest in it. There is a +50 soft cap (gear, song, amplify, etc) so they're going to be far under your move silently score if they didn't invest ranks etc regardless what it shows on the sheet.

Also in a combat situation if they can ONLY hear you you're still going to get sneak attack on them and be untargetable by spells and similar though they can melee/shoot you.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

Magical bonuses to any skill from any source are capped at +50.

100-50 = 50.

This means that in order to achieve listen that high, the bard in question has -

1: Max skill ranks in listen by level 30 (33 ranks)
2: Skill Focus: Listen (36 ranks)
3: Epic Skill Focus: Listen (46 Ranks)
4: Alertness (48 ranks)
5: A wis modifier of +2 (either 14 wisdom on a bard or a minimum of 9 wisdom with a maximized zoo buff).
6: At this point, after casting amplify, the bard still needs to accomodate 30 points of listen on their gear, or 20 points or so after they pop out a bard song bonus, which would require a +2 listen bonus on 10 of their 11 item slots.

You've equated this investment to a couple of presses of a button because mechanically the bard in question pushes a few hotkeys to flesh out these numbers, but if you actually break down the investments to generate the numbers before these button pushes, I would argue that this build is, in fact, a dedicated detector, who can only spot listen at its fullest potential part time by casting a spell and singing bardsong. If we don't agree there then I'd have to ask you - what does it take to be a dedicated detector in your opinion?

Also, to flip the script on its head, doesn't the rogue technically disappear with the push of a single button, rather than a few?

[La Villa Strangiato]

Magical bonuses to any skill from any source are capped at +50.

100-50 = 50.

This means that in order to achieve listen that high, the bard in question has -

1: Max skill ranks in listen by level 30 (33 ranks)
2: Skill Focus: Listen (36 ranks)
3: Epic Skill Focus: Listen (46 Ranks)
4: Alertness (48 ranks)
5: A wis modifier of +2 (either 14 wisdom on a bard or a minimum of 9 wisdom with a maximized zoo buff).
6: At this point, after casting amplify, the bard still needs to accomodate 30 points of listen on their gear, or 20 points or so after they pop out a bard song bonus, which would require a +2 listen bonus on 10 of their 11 item slots.

You've equated this investment to a couple of presses of a button because mechanically the bard in question pushes a few hotkeys to flesh out these numbers, but if you actually break down the investments to generate the numbers before these button pushes, I would argue that this build is, in fact, a dedicated detector, who can only spot listen at its fullest potential part time by casting a spell and singing bardsong. If we don't agree there then I'd have to ask you - what does it take to be a dedicated detector in your opinion?

Also, to flip the script on its head, doesn't the rogue technically disappear with the push of a single button, rather than a few?

After thinking it through for a bit I've decided my problem mainly lies with the fact that Amplify lasts so long now, what with it being turn/level. Considering most bards are the full enchilada of 30 now, that means that's 30 minutes with 2894829294732 Listen from a spell (obviously I'm exaggerating for humourous effect).

You are correct about all the other stuff, I think, and if it was rounds per level I'd be fine with it.

Bards being able to get insane listen scores isn't anything new, though they have to invest in it. There is a +50 soft cap (gear, song, amplify, etc) so they're going to be far under your move silently score if they didn't invest ranks etc regardless what it shows on the sheet.

Also in a combat situation if they can ONLY hear you you're still going to get sneak attack on them and be untargetable by spells and similar though they can melee/shoot you.

If I was sneaking around and a bard heard me, my concern would be less that they'd do any actual damage to me and more that it's probably appropriate for them to ALERT ALL THE GUARDS THERE'S A MONSTER IN THE CITY AAAA. Which I guess is more of a player culture issue but whatever, I play a monstrous race, I signed up for this.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

Cordor and the Arcane Tower also have a large invisible hide/ms debuff as well. It's in between -10 and -20 points. It would be very nice if these debuffs were visible so people knew it was happening. I saw no mention of this ever being fixed, so I imagine the debuff is still there. I have no idea how many other zones have it, I only know for sure it's in Cordor and the Arcane Tower.

[Ork]

I like the idea of reverting amplify back to rounds/level. It was changed when bat totems lost their true sight as some sort of concession, but it should be an ability that bards activate to support their listen when they're in need of it, not an ability that is always online.

[Azensor]

Cordor and the Arcane Tower also have a large invisible hide/ms debuff as well. It's in between -10 and -20 points. It would be very nice if these debuffs were visible so people knew it was happening. I saw no mention of this ever being fixed, so I imagine the debuff is still there. I have no idea how many other zones have it, I only know for sure it's in Cordor and the Arcane Tower.

if i recall right that debuff is in most 'city' centers, so cordor/arcane tower/bendir/the hub, beyond that ik a 50 hide/ms can bypass it

[In Sorrow We Trust]

I like the idea of reverting amplify back to rounds/level. It was changed when bat totems lost their true sight as some sort of concession, but it should be an ability that bards activate to support their listen when they're in need of it, not an ability that is always online.

I had suggested this at one point. I'll see what the rest of the balance team says.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

I like the idea of reverting amplify back to rounds/level. It was changed when bat totems lost their true sight as some sort of concession, but it should be an ability that bards activate to support their listen when they're in need of it, not an ability that is always online.

I can get behind this, but for the primary use (presumably) of using it to detect spies outside of combat, I'd suggest that rounds/level remains a bit too short, a problem in the opposite direction. Perhaps two or three rounds per caster level instead, which during RP would cover three or four large posts at the average typing speed if everyone hammered away on their keyboards for the duration (at level 30 it would work out to 6/9 minutes.)

[Hazard]

As a rogue in the current meta, where bards are very popular due to their crazy amazing utility .. It can feel pretty daunting knowing pretty much every group has a couple people in it that can just 100% detect you at all times without even needing any consumables, even after investing every feat, gear slot and consumable possible into hide + ms.

Kinda sucks, bruh. It's basically perma truesight.

[La Villa Strangiato]

As a rogue in the current meta, where bards are very popular due to their crazy amazing utility .. It can feel pretty daunting knowing pretty much every group has a couple people in it that can just 100% detect you at all times without even needing any consumables, even after investing every feat, gear slot and consumable possible into hide + ms.

Kinda sucks, bruh. It's basically perma truesight.

this, basically

Like how archers got made irrelevant and unusable basically overnight, I would not want the ability to stealth to go the same route due to the usability of bards. I'd be satisfied, however, with Amplify getting turned back to rounds/level, as it really cuts down the window you can be heard at.

[Hazard]

As a rogue in the current meta, where bards are very popular due to their crazy amazing utility .. It can feel pretty daunting knowing pretty much every group has a couple people in it that can just 100% detect you at all times without even needing any consumables, even after investing every feat, gear slot and consumable possible into hide + ms.

Kinda sucks, bruh. It's basically perma truesight.

this, basically

Like how archers got made irrelevant and unusable basically overnight, I would not want the ability to stealth to go the same route due to the usability of bards. I'd be satisfied, however, with Amplify getting turned back to rounds/level, as it really cuts down the window you can be heard at.

That seems fair to me. They'd still be able to detect with 100% chance, but just not keep it up 24/7.. At least giving you the chance to slip by or escape or something.

[AstralUniverse]

Rogue needs some love, seriously.

[Quidix]

Let's also remember that bards can Curse Song for +16 to hide and MS, and that this is not subject to the +50 soft cap.

[Griefmaker]

Magical bonuses to any skill from any source are capped at +50.

100-50 = 50.

This means that in order to achieve listen that high, the bard in question has -

1: Max skill ranks in listen by level 30 (33 ranks)
2: Skill Focus: Listen (36 ranks)
3: Epic Skill Focus: Listen (46 Ranks)
4: Alertness (48 ranks)
5: A wis modifier of +2 (either 14 wisdom on a bard or a minimum of 9 wisdom with a maximized zoo buff).
6: At this point, after casting amplify, the bard still needs to accomodate 30 points of listen on their gear, or 20 points or so after they pop out a bard song bonus, which would require a +2 listen bonus on 10 of their 11 item slots.

You've equated this investment to a couple of presses of a button because mechanically the bard in question pushes a few hotkeys to flesh out these numbers, but if you actually break down the investments to generate the numbers before these button pushes, I would argue that this build is, in fact, a dedicated detector, who can only spot listen at its fullest potential part time by casting a spell and singing bardsong. If we don't agree there then I'd have to ask you - what does it take to be a dedicated detector in your opinion?

Also, to flip the script on its head, doesn't the rogue technically disappear with the push of a single button, rather than a few?

This.

Stealth is still basically the "I win" button, and that comes from experience playing several stealthers when 98% of people and creatures cannot detect you. Remember too that a /dedicated/ detector, meaning in the example above they burned feats on alertness (why would anyone do that, unless maybe harper requires it?) and skill focus: listen (mostly useless...though ESF spot/Listen can be a worthwhile investment, at least if you do decide to go the dedicated spotter route).

What I am hearing is that a dedicated detector is able to find a likely not as dedicated stealther...in a city. Which debuffs by a significant amount. In the examples I am seeing in this thread, the stealther is still hosed even if there is no amplify present simply due to not being fully dedicated to stealth and because they are trying to do so in the city with its debuff.

Now if stealth worked as it did on an older NWN server I played on years ago, where a stealther could do so for 1d20 + hard ranks/turn, then be forced out of stealth and have a cool down of a turn, then I would totally be on the "nerf detection to the ground!" bandwagon too. But when a character is basically a ghost and can remain so forever...meh. Arelith is all about counters and this seems like the counter to stealth.

[IncorrigibleNev]

Arelith is all about counters and this seems like the counter to stealth.

This. I agree that it is a problem bard can walk around at soft cap for Listen, the problem being bard is the only one that can do it for a significant duration. If you want to build for being a detector, you should be able to and itemization/long duration detection buffs should support that in the same way stealth builds can have two rings of hiding (etc.) and long buffs like Camo/One with the Land. Counterplay and building is perfectly fair and valid.

[AstralUniverse]

Just play stealther dex bards. Problem solved.

[Hazard]

Just play stealther dex bards. Problem solved.

Yep. Guess so.

[Morgy]

Bards were balanced before, but with the fun/perhaps overtuned buffs and fun abilities, they are now all over the place. I imagine in time they will go back to their previous popularity, as most classes do after having big changes made. Really, there is little point having multiple bards in a group and people may come to realise this when they hit 30 and see the over-saturation.

My bard has about 100 listen fully buffed. But he’s a dedicated detector with feats and items for it. I’d rather not nerf amplify down to rounds/level or it makes the build significantly less effective. I’d be up for making listen range be more limited.

Spot currently has far more uses than listen, so it’d be also a bit unfair to further nerf this particular skill, indirectly or otherwise.

[AstralUniverse]

Spot has more uses, sure, but Listen is only as effective as the enemy's Move, which is harder to crank up compared to Hide and Bluff/Perform. So it's relative.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

Spot has more uses, sure, but Listen is only as effective as the enemy's Move, which is harder to crank up compared to Hide and Bluff/Perform. So it's relative.

Objection! (Sorry, I've always wanted to do that )

Yes, there are more spells that give a bonus to hide than there are move silently.

However, while you can hypothetically go all in and achieve 127 hide (sorry if the number is wrong, replace it with whatever the practical cap is), you can also just cast silence or sanctuary on yourself, and nothing can hear you no matter how high their listen score is - even if you have zero move silently. So I wouldn't say hide actually wins on the 'which one can be boosted better' scale. (You can beat this with true seeing...if you're a diviner.)

[AstralUniverse]

However, while you can hypothetically go all in and achieve 127 hide (sorry if the number is wrong, replace it with whatever the practical cap is), you can also just cast silence or sanctuary on yourself, and nothing can hear you no matter how high their listen score is - even if you have zero move silently. So I wouldn't say hide actually wins on the 'which one can be boosted better' scale. (You can beat this with true seeing...if you're a diviner.)

Dont you need to exit stealth to cast a spell or use an item for that? it's not exactly a hard counter or anything. but whatever. we can discuss that on another thread.

[Morgy]

My point is Spot has more uses, so perhaps Listen should be -slightly- better for detection? Otherwise why ever choose it?

[AstralUniverse]

My point is Spot has more uses, so perhaps Listen should be -slightly- better for detection? Otherwise why ever choose it?

Read the title of this thread. Listen is getting way too high when it comes to bards and the only way to match it with high Move is to... *drums* ... be a stealther bard. But if we take bard out of the equation, Listen/Move are quite alright and Listen is in fact slightly better than Move already.

[Morgy]

My point is Spot has more uses, so perhaps Listen should be -slightly- better for detection? Otherwise why ever choose it?

Read the title of this thread.

No need to be passive aggressive, can read just fine buddy! Discussions evolve, yeah?

I'm a bard with 100 listen buffed, Epic skill foci, items, yada yada. Disagree it's too high, but it bards are simply mega common right now because they had a lot of changes.. This is a cycle where new/update classes get picked up in large amount and those that are naturally countered by those builds/classes get a hard life for a bit.. until the focus moves on.