Discord & source of truth

[Marsi]

Note: this is not a thread about Discord discourse or behaviour, etc etc, anything like that


Discord has come to enjoy primacy over the forums for many, and become a necessary Arelith platform in its own right, and I'm curious how people feel about that.

Arelith used to have a stringent policy of "information access equality", that the game was all one needed to participate. Now, I don't think this has been made untrue yet, but things have certainly changed.

More and more the forums feel to me downstream of Discord when it comes to announcements, rulings, changelogs. More and more the way group RP is organised presupposes access to Discord. I'm sure there are a number of players now who seldom visit the forums, but who spend much of their time on Arelith Discord. I'm sure there is a certain kind of player who wonders what the point is of posting event notices to messageboards when a Discord event reminder does just fine (this ritual will surely slacken as time goes on). I'm seeing now that DM events are advertised on Discord. There's the little things, like all the great screenshots never posted to the forums (I cherish years old forum screenshot threads!!!), instead lost to the Discord stream of consciousness.

To be honest, I find it a little worrying how reliant Arelith has become on a third party platform. Over the ten~ years I've been here, I've seen a lot of proprietary platforms come and go, along with all the content housed on them (rip xfire). The nature of a SaaS (software as a service) product is very unpredictable. It is not hyperbole to suggest that Discord could just disappear tomorrow, or lock a communities out of their own space with no chance to appeal. Just important to remember that it *is* a product, unlike the forums, which, able to be self-hosted by the community itself, exists as meaningful community property.

I think this is worth considering because as it stands, Arelith has existed a lot longer than many of the tech products we use today. Hacked or compromised, acquired by BigCorpWhoDoesntGetItLLC (remember tumblr?), ruined by tin-eared updates, new payment plans, or just inevitable network effect collapse and cannibalization by New Thing -- I think its quite likely Arelith will outlive most of the apps we use and we should be prepared for that.

[Hazard]

Don't even have it installed. Have never used it in regards to Arelith and will likely never use it.

I've always been able to do absolutely everything IC, even with no-tells turned on and for the rare few OOC matters that I've needed to handle I could do that through the forums effortlessly.

[Amateur Hour]

Arelith used to have a stringent policy of "information access equality", that the game was all one needed to participate. Now, I don't think this has been made untrue yet, but things have certainly changed.

...

I'm seeing now that DM events are advertised on Discord.

Just to comment on this specifically, I am glad that some of these events are getting posted publicly, because all of the DM events I have ever been to have been, effectively, "invite only", privy to a small group of people who only share knowledge of it selectively, usually only to their friends, and thus you have people who can go literally years being active members of their community but easily never run into a DM events. Putting some events on Discord--specifically, large ones--evens the playing field.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

If Discord shut down tomorrow, absolutely nothing would change.

There have always been 3rd party methods of communication. Chatting on forums like we are now is 3rd party communication. Prior to Discord was Skype, which people would use to make server chat rooms. People used to make forums for every new faction/guild they started, in the same way that people make new discord channels for factions now. It was sort of a meme that people would make a forum and uniforms and giant guild structure, and not spend any effort actually trying to get the guild going in the game world. When I used to RP in Ultima Online, people used IRC the same way that Discord is used now. If people want to communicate out-of-game, they will do so using whatever the most popular means to do so is at that point in time. Who knows, maybe someday we'll all communicate through twitter. But right now the medium is Discord.

As for dev updates appearing on Discord and not the forums, there were a few issues with that (mostly due to posting permissions I think). But trying to make some sort of doom and gloom narrative out of it is bizarre and is blowing Discord usage out of proportion.

[noj]

I find it a little worrying how reliant Arelith has become on a third party platform.

The irony of this being posted on a forum that's likely hosted by a third party provider is not lost on me.

[Eyeliner]

The general discussion area of Discord can be a bit annoying but otherwise I find you can get answers and tech help immediately on Discord with questions that fall silent on the forum, even when DMs or admins are needed. Players tend to be a little friendlier too when you ask a question or discuss a mechanic. Obviously there are private Discords where shenanigans might happen but in the ones I've been in are pretty easy going and with decent people.

These forums can be weirdly combative and ugly with a lot of one-upsmanship and heaven help you if you express an unpopular opinion. I don't think the forums are inherently better because they were around first and I think Discord is unfairly demonized sometimes. It's a great tool if used properly.

[Sincra]

I am distinctly of the belief that Discord has enabled two things:
Instant connectivity.
A sense of over reliance, note the word sense, I will explain this a bit more further down.

The instant connectivity is a common factor of instant messaging and notification systems, we so often get called back to read a directed message or are directly asked unprompted that it becomes second nature.
I recently went from a phone that could not support Discord to one that could, it was rather eye opening then when the net went out how much more reliant on that I had become when compared to prior. Not for any one particular thing but just, talking with text.

This brings me to over reliance, or the sense there of, when we are more connected and more responsive it's easy to see this as an attitude shift to over reliance, to me the reality is this is likely an illusion.
If I left the official Arelith Discord my gameplay, albeit limited, would likely be unimpeded as I didn't rely on it for anything in the first place.

Which brings me to the last point, not for existing observations but instead a prediction. The shift of moving MORE information onto it risks making that sense of reliance a reality, and in the past it was this unspoken and sometimes spoken rule that everything should be done IG. Good evidence of this is that the faction messages, something in the game, are for OOC coordination, not IC communication.

I'd respectfully ask that events be prioritised in game and not to have others "schedule" rp as a normal practice, this lessens the living world if moved to another platform.

[xanrael]

I prefer a staff run Discord to how it was in years prior in that a line can be drawn by admin on when a toxic discussion has taken a few steps too far. I don't always agree when and where that line is drawn, but the same is true for the forums.

I'm less a fan of any faction that makes their private Discord a near requirement for participation and tend to steer clear if the first words of recruitment are some mention of joining a private Discord. Probably the main reason for that is the assumption that joining a faction as a character means you align with it as a player.

As far as my actual Discord usage, I'll join and leave the official Discord as time passes, joining when I have questions and leaving when I feel my time is better spent elsewhere.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

Obviously there are private Discords where shenanigans might happen but in the ones I've been in are pretty easy going and with decent people.

This also isn't unique to Discord. When I started out on Arelith, someone linked me to a website that had a bunch of screenshots making fun of other players. I've seen private forums and skype become this sort of thing too. The weirdest one I've seen was a google spreadsheet. If people can collaboratively share text, it can be used for drama.

With that said, I want to thank the team for making official discord servers for different settlements, and encouraging people to try and be centralized. It encourages people to communicate rather than isolate.

I also think Arelith players don't realize how unique Arelith is in that there's IG message boards. People communicating events and whatnot OOC is normal everywhere else I have played. Personally I prefer it, I'm trying to spend less time in-game and focus on IRL productivity, it's very easy to miss things going on. All of this has nothing to do with discord either. Usually there are event announcement subforums.

[Marsi]

But trying to make some sort of doom and gloom narrative out of it is bizarre and is blowing Discord usage out of proportion.

I don't think I'm doom & glooming anything, or blowing it out of proportion at all. I am just curious what people think about the way communication & source of truth is changing (or not) and offered my own thoughts to kick it off. Discord is a significant part of the community now -- most online communities now -- and it seems weird to pretend its not, or that it hasn't changed anything at all, or that any discussion of Discord must be characterised as luddite screeching.

The irony of this being posted on a forum that's likely hosted by a third party provider is not lost on me.

The providers used in running one's own website are hardly on par with existing inside a VC-funded consumer tech platform. I'm not sure if you don't understand the difference, or are sincerely gesturing toward the argument that it's all one and the same.

The general discussion area of Discord can be a bit annoying but otherwise I find you can get answers and tech help immediately on Discord with questions that fall silent on the forum, even when DMs or admins are needed. Players tend to be a little friendlier too when you ask a question or discuss a mechanic. Obviously there are private Discords where shenanigans might happen but in the ones I've been in are pretty easy going and with decent people.

These forums can be weirdly combative and ugly with a lot of one-upsmanship and heaven help you if you express an unpopular opinion. I don't think the forums are inherently better because they were around first and I think Discord is unfairly demonized sometimes. It's a great tool if used properly.

I completely agree. Important to note that I don't hate Discord, I use it all the time, I'm not some retvrn FOIGist. I think easy and quick access to information and community is what Discord is good for, and is likely critical to Arelith's EE popularity explosion.

[Spyre]

Recently I have opened a few permissions on Discord to DMs and developers to enable a bit more freedom in opening discussions, engaging the community and sharing new things. We did not have a discussion on what would be used in events necessarily, and recently a DM has posted an event they planned on hosting. This has opened up discussions though on what our stance will be with these - they were just quicker to it than I was at finding free time.

Discord is just an easier medium to engage and receive real time responses from fellow players, and staff. It helps get those questions answered quicker. And, it would easily be replaced by the next big thing. However, it is never a necessity to have when playing Arelith. But, my goal is to continue to maintain parity between Discord and the Forums as to updates and relevant announcements. Expanding on this, we have dedicated volunteers updating the wiki to get that on par with our current systems. It is a lot of work, but it is getting there.

I apologize if it isn't on par at all times and will continue to work on ensuring it is.

[AstralUniverse]

I say this next bit out of the assumption that people who are more prone to meta-gaming will find ways to meta-game with or without discord all the same.

I think the fact we have to stay in character and do everything in game as a sever rule, sort of gate-keeps us from ever being too reliant on an ooc program like discord. If discord died tomorrow, we'd all be using the forums again and probably move to coordinating events via the forums, which would be slightly more cumbersome but almost the same as now. What it would certainly change is how fast we adapt to updates and mechanical meta-shifts. So I think discord is good for us as things stand.

[Kenji]

Here's my take on Forum vs Discord:
It's flip phones vs smartphones. (Or horses vs cars, or dial-up vs cable)

This is speaking from a personal experience. I remember in my college days in a group project, I was the only person with a flip phone instead of a smartphone. That was my choice, but the consequences of not being a part of the group messaging system and having to rely on others to relay the words spoken in the group chat were also mine to bear alone. It was not my place to complain about why isn't the group all using flip phones or emails instead of group chats.

I will stick a leg out and say the very same attitude easily applies to this Discord vs Forum.

How does that analogy translate to the two different platforms for discussion?
First is the advancement of technology, in this case, software instead of hardware.
Second is the speed at which replies are made and discussions take place, I could easily maneuver through multiple topics instantly without having to press refresh and wait for a reply. Consequently, it's also harder to have an organized discussion, which is truly what forums are better suited for.

For those who refuse to partake on Discord: that's okay, but if one misses out on first-hand information, that's also on them (Assuming that they care, that is, some have expressed that they don't and that's actually good and healthy!). The speed at which discord operates is something that a forum can never keep up. One can continue to be angry at which technology advances, but humans are meant to adapt. Do we still remember those people who complained the invention of cars is taking away the job market for horses? Seems preposterous now but I am seeing this Discord vs Forum thing through the same lens.

I am speaking as a fellow player rather than a dev that the team has nothing to apologize for utilizing Discord as much as they can. Arelith is all the better for it: we are far more transparent than before for one.

Edit:
These complaints about metagaming is a very valid one but also one that is a minor one in my opinion. When cell phones first came out, it is utilized by drug dealers and organized crime. In the early days of the cell phone, it was associated with crime and therefore banned in schools. The pros for Discord far outweigh the cons that came with it, case in point: people speculated what would've taken years to balance from loremegeddon is now done in a matter of 2 years, and Discord had a larger play in this than most realize.

/rant

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

Here's my take on Forum vs Discord:
It's flip phones vs smartphones. (Or horses vs cars, or dial-up vs cable)

This is a beautiful summary that I wholeheartedly agree with.

In 2002 when HotU was still fresh hot and responsible for gamespy breaking left and right, I often heard people lament at how taxing NWN was for their machine. I occasionally lamented my internet speed. All of us except those of us with cutting edge enthusiast rigs had some sort of problem with NWN performance at some point or another (and even some of the top end rigs) because, let's face it, as much as we all love this game, it was a special kind of spaghetti sauce before the community got their hands on it and launched their own modules with their own code, and sometimes it dumped on us, but we loved it anyway.

It's 2022. If you're playing NWN online now, you're most likely playing on Enhanced Edition, which means your computer can run and handle discord- even if you can't field a headset for voicechat.

If you're playing NWN on your smartphone, it's smart enough to run discord.

If your console connects to the internet so you can play on Arelith, it's 2022, and it probably has a web browser. You can literally log into discord through a web browser, which I'm 100% certain the Xbox provides and 99.9% certain the switch provides.

Equality of access is no longer a valid reason not to use discord, and hasn't been since the release of Enhanced Edition.

Forums are fantastic for organizing things, for cliff notes and references, for character biographies, for static things like resolutions and summaries.

Real-time communication is invaluable for absolutely anything else OOC - and I think insisting on a forum-only approach needlessly hampers both the developers and the community, so long as we acknowledge that organization of event times and locations are okay but all RP should be happening on-screen on the server. (And of course, events should also be mentioned on-server, not just discord.)

[Tabby]

Forums is abit slower, but it also give everyone a chance to voice yourself.
On a discord channel, those that joins a topic later on a channel, has usually a giant wall of instant chat, to read through and makes it near impossible to join a discussion later on (timezones, you wake up 5 hours later, etc)

I use Forums more, than discord, i am only part of the Official Arelith.
Due to a discussion most likely is over when you read it on discord, for that same reason i never participate, i never found it a need to play IC in arelith, and mostlike never will

I voice my self OOC on forums, and play strictly IC in game..

I dont know, if i am playing on Arelith, i dont chat/post/have a conversation on discord at the same time, i simply cannot be 2 places at once

[Marsi]

Here's my take on Forum vs Discord:
It's flip phones vs smartphones. (Or horses vs cars, or dial-up vs cable)

This is a beautiful summary that I wholeheartedly agree with.

Interesting - you both seem to imply Discord *is* in fact the crucial community infrastructure of Arelith.

[Tabby]

Btw, for souce of truth, info i rely on the Wiki, as a static place for rules, mechanics and such.
Never forums or discord, as i will get lost in a wall of text, or hiding somewhere on the pages of a forum. I do hope as things change that the Wiki is updated

[Kenji]

Here's my take on Forum vs Discord:
It's flip phones vs smartphones. (Or horses vs cars, or dial-up vs cable)

This is a beautiful summary that I wholeheartedly agree with.

Interesting - you both seem to imply Discord *is* in fact the crucial community infrastructure of Arelith.

Yes, but it isn't just the Discord being an application, software, or executable that caters to the Arelith community, but as a change in our platform for communication, much like how Forums can be in the form of PHP, Reddit, or even Trello. What's important to recognize here is how our platforms have evolved based on our needs as a community. Perhaps one day, Discord will be phased out by a better-designed app much like what Facebook was to MySpace, who knows. Still, this transition to a different platform that caters to different speeds is undeniably an evolution of communication, and Arelith's infrastructure happens to be a part of it.

It also didn't come as a surprise as this isn't the first time the platform of communication has shifted. The first was gossip among the village, then written messages and carriers such as pigeons for as far as we know. Then printing technology came out along with newspapers, and then the internet forums and social media. And now, Discord and Zoom.

[AstralUniverse]

Here's my take on Forum vs Discord:
It's flip phones vs smartphones. (Or horses vs cars, or dial-up vs cable)

This is a beautiful summary that I wholeheartedly agree with.

Interesting - you both seem to imply Discord *is* in fact the crucial community infrastructure of Arelith.

Except that there's a difference between Kenji's college days and now, because if you just want to play the game and dont care about events or anything else that can be coordinated oocly, you're not missing anything. There was no "Stay IC" rule in Kenji's college, I assume.

[Kenji]

This is a beautiful summary that I wholeheartedly agree with.

Interesting - you both seem to imply Discord *is* in fact the crucial community infrastructure of Arelith.

Except that there's a difference between Kenji's college days and now, because if you just want to play the game and dont care about events or anything else that can be coordinated oocly, you're not missing anything. There was no "Stay IC" rule in Kenji's college, I assume.

It's a matter of convenience and, as Sincra has pointed out, over-reliance on certain technology. I still got As in all of my mathematics and physics courses and in group work without a smartphone at the time. Would it have been better if I had a smartphone? Yes, I can definitively say so, but I certainly can function in a group work setting without one.

Imagine having to scan your homework solutions one page at a time using a clunky machine instead of taking a photo from an app that automatically converts the picture to PDF. Goodness gracious.

[TurningLeaf]

Here's my take on Forum vs Discord:
It's flip phones vs smartphones. (Or horses vs cars, or dial-up vs cable)

Seems a bit over-stirred as compared to the more obvious analogy of Twitter vs. Reddit. Twitter doesn't replace Reddit, Reddit doesn't replace Twitter. You go to one or the other for different things.

[Kenji]

Here's my take on Forum vs Discord:
It's flip phones vs smartphones. (Or horses vs cars, or dial-up vs cable)

Seems a bit over-stirred as compared to the more obvious analogy of Twitter vs. Reddit. Twitter doesn't replace Reddit, Reddit doesn't replace Twitter. You go to one or the other for different things.

But I go to both Discord and the Forum for the same thing: development, feedback, and mechanical discussions - albeit in different forms and lengths. Quick feedback and discussion without going too in-depth and easy transition with Discord; long, thoughtful posts with good record-keeping and organization with the forums.

Twitter does neither and I don't connect with that platform. Reddit for some reason doesn't appeal to me, so I'm afraid the analogy is lost on me. I chose the phone one over anything else because of its relevance. Not everyone has ridden a horse nor do they all drive a car, not everyone has experienced dial-up to know how much better cable internet is, and certainly, not everyone uses Twitter or Reddit. A phone is readily available almost everywhere we go now and I believe the analogy will be a better medium than Twitter vs Reddit.

[TurningLeaf]

Quick feedback and discussion without going too in-depth and easy transition with Discord; long, thoughtful posts with good record-keeping and organization with the forums.

Sounds like you have in fact figured out the best use of each.

[Skibbles]

There are occasional threads that pop up that leave the distinct impression you're joining the conversation very late or with only half the information. 'Downstream' does seem very apt.

I'm surprised there isn't some kind of bot or html magic that can't just auto-crosspost the update thread with whatever is put on discord or vice versa. It seems like automation in some key areas should be a partial solution.

I'm not sure what else can be said if we don't want to touch on the topic of discord's 'other' impacts.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

Here's my take on Forum vs Discord:
It's flip phones vs smartphones. (Or horses vs cars, or dial-up vs cable)

This is a beautiful summary that I wholeheartedly agree with.

Interesting - you both seem to imply Discord *is* in fact the crucial community infrastructure of Arelith.

Sort of- I agree that it's a crucial infrastructure, alongside the forums- like I said, for organization and other things, forums are easier - but for high speed communication, discord is king.

Here's an example. Everyone you need for an event is on. IC, everything is set up. You've got your DMs, your players, things are rolling.

It's an event with lots of flashy lights and colors but not a ton of players. We'll say the event starts somewhere that isn't frequently super busy. On-screen, a few people crash. Maybe a DM crashes.

Now, all RP should happen IC on screen. But let's say a few people crash. Their characters were there, they were there, they were playing, but they miss five to ten minutes of plot relevant text. The returned crashing players have a few options.

1: They can sign into the forums, and desperately PM other players in hopes that these players are also logged into the forums and alt-tabbing every couple of minutes while they play.

2: They can spam the DM voice channel, which is already flooded with messages from players not involved in the event needing help, asking to be caught up on that oh-so-important piece of plot they missed.

3: They can notify the DMs and players involved in a discord; hey, I crashed, did I miss anything? They can even ping other players. They can get updated with a screenshot on what they missed right in the chat room. The DM doesn't have to parse five million tells, alt-tab, open up a forum window, and catch the player up. Neither do any of the other players involved in the event. All RP can still happen on screen.

4: If the DM crashed, they can notify the players they will in fact be back, ask everyone to hold up for a second (that way they don't roll forward and trigger whatever thing the DM was placing and force them to start all over), and everyone knows there wasn't some emergency that just postponed the event. Further, if people are in an event channel with the DM, the DM can ping the channel to immediately let the other players know something important is happening around their event. Other players will know an event is happening, but not where (can't metagame appear), and if they do stumble into it, can be added.

To me, options 3 and 4 are superior, and having it is better than not- but I've always leaned on eliminating rule-breakers, not the tools they knowingly use to break the rules.

This is just one example- the emphasis here is on the convenience of real-time communication for things that don't violate the rules. Maybe a dev has a mechanical idea running rampant in their head to discuss with another dev, but they're in the middle of something else, so they're on voice chat while they do the thing so they don't lose the steam behind their idea.

My insistence is not about discord being the only crux for necessary Arelith development and communications OOC, but rather that it's an indispensable one that we've dragged our feet about for too long. I present it in this light because I believe for too long we've allowed fear of rulebreakers to keep us from moving forward with it in a positive fashion for productive Arelith business, but it's a false reasoning - if people on discord want to DM each other and voice chat and break the rules (because you don't actually have to start a discord channel to voice chat with people on it) there is nothing you can do to stop that.

Insisting that players don't use discord doesn't help keep people from breaking rules, it simply creates a vacuum in which the rulebreakers can no longer be infiltrated (this happens, and not always in good faith, unfortunately) or even noticed outside of blatant non-communication in-game.

But letting players and developers use discord encourages everyone to play in the same pool, and if someone young who doesn't know better starts to drown (do something not meant for discord) the other players and DM's can gently help bring them back to the shallow end.

I also imagine that for phone players, having discord running in the background is much, much more preferable than minimizing their game, opening the forums, and trying to type a long message - discord offers speech to text options.