Epic Planar Conduit nerf

[Arienette]

1. In another forum thread, a developer said something along the lines of “with the coming planar conduit nerf…”

2. Shortly after that, we had a “summer balance changes” announcement that included a change to magic Vestament in regards to summons.

So my question is, should we expect to shortly see a more specific nerf to Planar Conduit?

Really not interested in opening a debate about wether it’s needed or not or what it might be. That has been hashed out in another forum thread and elsewhere.

Just curious if we should be anticipating some change to the spell.

[Kenji]

Yes, there'll be some more nerfs to Planar Conduit Soon™

[Gazfrost]

I am against nerfing it, maybe make it a level 28 summons instead .. to much nerfing going on

[xf1313]

In the meanwhile, I hope to see something about wizards and sourcer

When people complain about super strong PC they never recognise those weaklings with no spell resistance summons that get dismissed by low lv mob mage

And the combact ai of Slaadi and ants is a problem (the bumpy landscape of latter maps make matter worst)

[Whosdis]

Yes, there'll be some more nerfs to Planar Conduit Soon™

Can we expect accompanying balance and flavor changes, such as evil streams and buffing Conduit against WoF?

It feels odd because it's so plainly outstanding in PVE, but plainly useless against anyone remotely competent in PVP

[garrbear758]

I am against nerfing it, maybe make it a level 28 summons instead .. to much nerfing going on

First of all, when the option is to nerf one thing or buff literally everything else, there's no good reason not to nerf the one thing. It's very clearly overpowered and not in line with other summons.

Additionally, power creep eventually requires rebalancing all of pve. We've had a lot of power creep over the last few years, and the server has gotten much easier to solo than intended. A lot of the complaints about newer dungeons being harder are due to attempts to rebalance them to where they should be based on the power creep the server has had.

Planar conduit was also never intended to be a level 28 summon and the team shouldn't change the intended design of an ability for the sake of avoiding a nerf.

Nerfing sucks, and I guarantee no one on the team enjoys it, as much as they may joke otherwise, especially given the typical backlash, but it's a necessary thing for long term server health.

[Rei_Jin]

I am against nerfing it, maybe make it a level 28 summons instead .. to much nerfing going on

First of all, when the option is to nerf one thing or buff literally everything else, there's no good reason not to nerf the one thing. It's very clearly overpowered and not in line with other summons.

Additionally, power creep eventually requires rebalancing all of pve. We've had a lot of power creep over the last few years, and the server has gotten much easier to solo than intended. A lot of the complaints about newer dungeons being harder are due to attempts to rebalance them to where they should be based on the power creep the server has had.

Planar conduit was also never intended to be a level 28 summon and the team shouldn't change the intended design of an ability for the sake of avoiding a nerf.

Nerfing sucks, and I guarantee no one on the team enjoys it, as much as they may joke otherwise, especially given the typical backlash, but it's a necessary thing for long term server health.

There are unhelpful ways to engage with issues like this, and helpful ways to engage.

Thank you for wording what the issue is in such a non-inflammatory way, explaining things clearly, and showing that this is not a biased or personal decision by some of the staff.

Would go a long way to addressing unrest in the community if all posts from staff were done in the same tone

[Ork]

I don't think veiled jabs at dev replies is doing you any favors in changing how they're going to respond.

[Kenji]

Would go a long way to addressing unrest in the community if all posts from staff were done in the same tone

[Exordius]

From what im told its not that huge of a nerf... conduit will do less damage but not so much less that its not effective against high end mobs, and its defenses and ability to tank are supposed to remain unchanged at least if what im hearing is accurate?

[Rei_Jin]

You know, I made a post that said thank you for positive engagement, and commented on how such engagement is helpful in communication with the community, and the response from some folks was basically to respond antagonistically, as if to either prove the point, or show that they do not care.

I thought one of the Golden Rules of Arelith was "Be Nice", and that said rules applied across the community, from top to bottom.

[Ork]

Yeah that's really not what happened. You don't get to make snide, passive-aggressive comments carte blanche and then hide behind the "be nice" rule when called on it.

[Whosdis]

Guys, guys, guys, guys, guys, guys, guys.

I'm curious as to whether we might get more flavor out of this!

Let us brace in possible excitement!

[Subtext]

I swear to god, I feel like every second thread revolves into unnecessary potshots against someone else and some folks just...piling on to that.

I for once am curious what changes are going to happen. I will admit, it's always been a little disheartening to see how easy casters/summoners have it compared to us filthy mundanes in terms of gear requirements, resource investment and viability for PvE content. (Plus all the cool cookies like the ESF extras...)
The only mundane that comes close really are certain Shadowdancer builds and those are utterly falling behind for PvP (when's the Shadowdancer overhaul due btw? )

What I do hope however is that a certain variance remains in terms of easy and hard content. I like that there are more difficult dungeons and have zero qualms with the fact that the new ones fall on the difficult side but I hope that a few remain relatively easy to do even solo (like Red Viper Monastery). When it comes to remaining on par in terms of top level gear, it is a hell of a lot more convenient for players with less/spotty playtime or a decided focus on RP outside of adventuring to be able to do stuff like going for a rune solo when time allows.
That said, I welcome tougher places overall. I'm not always down for adventuring RP but when I do, I'd rather have it happen in a really challenging place. There is little more boring than trotting behind the ancient water elemental slaughtering its way through the dungeon while chitchatting a little. A little because you're busy keeping up and there's no time for much talk.

[Paint]

Kenji, I hope your salt-posting never gets you in trouble because despite it usually being pretty brutal, it remains really funny, and I say that as the unfortunate victim of it.

My thoughts on the PC nerf have shifted over time. On the one hand, I really like summons and sitting back and doing nothing and PC is real strong, even with no investment in the conjuration foci. I've gotten a lot of mileage out of it on several characters. On the other hand, I do also like builds where I get to do -more- than that. One of the reasons Shaman is so appealing to me right now is that you can really build something that can do a lot in combat. Nothing extremely well, but a lot of things.

Powerful summons encourages balancing around powerful summons. So casters are more boring, more predictable, and overall less fun. I've honestly wished a couple of times that summons were just deleted from the game entirely to force casters to be balanced without summons in mind.

I could go on a rant, but my time problem solving with my transmutation wizard and my evo wizard really showed me what could be, even if both of those specialists fall very short of the bar. They were incredibly fun to play, and relying on mord's sword as my only line of defense meant that there was a constant clock ticking. Because let me tell you, mord's sword ain't gonna get you there alone. I couldn't just sit there and wait for it to chew through things. I had to -constantly- be doing something or I was going to die. It was a lot more engaging. Just resulted in two characters that are entirely useless in PVP, and therefore, couldn't project any meaningful power outside of a settlement, rendering them social RP characters. A fate worse than death.

Anyways, PC was something added pretty recently in the scheme of Arelith. I seriously doubt it's going to be nerfed so heavily that it's entirely ineffectual. I don't think it's worth fretting so much over a very powerful mechanic being brought down so that you're forced to rely on other tools, especially now that there are a wide array of other tools available to the casting classes that typically take PC.

Edit:
It's my hope that feedback in the future about casting classes aren't complaining about PC and Mummy Dust being underpowered, but about what other tools casters are lacking to make up for the fact that PC and Mummy Dust alone aren't getting you across the finishline.

[xf1313]

The mob aggro mechanisms are making life really hard for non-warlock

About class balance, I find the imbalance about dnd is charming. Low lv wizards are a joke and they can do all that cool things when they lv up. They a fragile and no effort to take down if played right, but invincible when prepared. Other classes has strengths and weaknesses. It would be very boring if all classes are made essentially similar.

If a fighter loose an archery match with an AA, a rogue face wm in front battle and got nailed to the ground, I mean man..you asked for that. The correct way to cut down a wizard is to surprise it! Do not wait for all the ward is up, then complain their spells are too strong.

I am also curious about what is going to happen to PC, and pray very hard for humanoid summon skins. Monster model just do not work as good.

As much I wished to contribute the old wizard of mine died to many times trying to help. And perhaps, a character’s influence in the world should not be determined by the pvp power? It sounds very unhealthy, I was not really involved in any grand things so I cannot say it is true or not. Even in dnd politics should not be determined by pvp power, surely.

[AstralUniverse]

It's my hope that feedback in the future about casting classes aren't complaining about PC and Mummy Dust being underpowered, but about what other tools casters are lacking to make up for the fact that PC and Mummy Dust alone aren't getting you across the finishline.

I dont recall a lot of people complaining that PCs or Mummy dust being underpowered. When everything is more or less fine and in line with one another except this one that that's out-shining the rest (planar conduit in this case) there's no logical reason to tweak anything except the one problematic thing. There's a bit of a mixup going sometimes when people compare Planar conduit to PCs or to mummy dust. I think that's simply because planar conduit is similar to mummy dust in feat investment and is arguably similar to a melee PC in it's stats, or not far off it, and doesnt require the economical investment into gear. So these are just good arbitrary points of comparison in their regards respectively.

but the tl;dr is that 'mundane' PCs are fine when geared, and mummy dust is fine for late game content. I dont think casters need any extra tools and mummy dust can get them to the 'finish line' just fine but why not pick conduit instead and make it entirely effortless, and also have it be much more threatening than mummies/vamps in pvp for reasons long discussed and explained in other threads by now. I'm not really expecting a drastic and dramatic nerf. It'll probably still have higher net value than mummy dust after it's nerfed.

[Paint]

but the tl;dr is that 'mundane' PCs are fine when geared, and mummy dust is fine for late game content. I dont think casters need any extra tools and mummy dust can get them to the 'finish line' just fine but why not pick conduit instead and make it entirely effortless, and also have it be much more threatening than mummies/vamps in pvp for reasons long discussed and explained in other threads by now. I'm not really expecting a drastic and dramatic nerf. It'll probably still have higher net value than mummy dust after it's nerfed.

I uh, don't necessarily disagree with you, but that was sort of the point I was already getting to in my post. What I meant was, after these nerfs, I really don't want to see people complaining that either mummy dust or pc are underpowered because you can't just coast off of them, because I feel like encouraging casters that are more boring is... boring.

[AstralUniverse]

What I meant was, after these nerfs, I really don't want to see people complaining that either mummy dust or pc are underpowered

For now I keep the opinion that mummy dust is *perfect* balance-wise. I think it's a pillar of good design and good balance when it comes to epic summons. I also think summon creature 9 ancient elemental is underrated for how good it tanks late-game content even better than mummy dust because it has much lower clear speed. 'PCs' are not weak either. They simply have harder times gearing and leveling solo compared to summoners, and they very often just dont have a realistic answer to spell resist buffed 52 ab conduit. Hence, just toning down planar conduit at this point really goes to the distance in leveling the field. I would also argue the same about the epic unseelie summon (and possibly other warlock or bg summons if they also have mad stats like that, but I played with the fey summon) but that's for another thread and at least they arent accessible to shamans and clerics.

[-XXX-]

I feel like encouraging casters that are more boring is... boring.

Well, that's like comparing a cookie cutter WM to a dex rogue. One's basic and boring, the other's toolboxy and challenging.
I'd say that each appeals to a different kind of player. Ideally the power level ceiling for both would be comparable, regardless of how much skill and effort either build requires to pilot.

Furthermore, when it comes to endgame PvE the potential for things getting more interesting with casters is fairly limited. Their wide toolbox gets drastically narrowed down in the face of various immunities, excessively high saves and beefy hp values - there aren't really that many things that work and I'm unsure how much less boring spamming those few that actually do is.

[Paint]

Furthermore, when it comes to endgame PvE the potential for things getting more interesting with casters is fairly limited. Their wide toolbox gets drastically narrowed down in the face of various immunities, excessively high saves and beefy hp values - there aren't really that many things that work and I'm unsure how much less boring spamming those few that actually do is.

Maybe that's a conversation that needs to be had in the future, then. Discussing ways to make those tools have more use without making them too powerful seems like something worth doing. It's certainly better than pigeonholing every caster into shades of the same archetype.

[In Sorrow We Trust]

i wish i had more salty feedback . . . i mean gosh . . . it's not like this is a voluntary position or anything . . .

[Ork]

i wish i had more salty feedback . . . i mean gosh . . . it's not like this is a voluntary position or anything . . .

I got u fam. Dirgesinger is meh and bard is broekn.

[In Sorrow We Trust]

i wish i had more salty feedback . . . i mean gosh . . . it's not like this is a voluntary position or anything . . .

I got u fam. Dirgesinger is meh and bard is broekn.

thank you...........i feel better now

[Whosdis]

Furthermore, when it comes to endgame PvE the potential for things getting more interesting with casters is fairly limited. Their wide toolbox gets drastically narrowed down in the face of various immunities, excessively high saves and beefy hp values - there aren't really that many things that work and I'm unsure how much less boring spamming those few that actually do is.

Maybe that's a conversation that needs to be had in the future, then. Discussing ways to make those tools have more use without making them too powerful seems like something worth doing. It's certainly better than pigeonholing every caster into shades of the same archetype.

Ultimately, I find the issue to be that Planar Conduit(or another type of casting spell) is effectively mandatory to do any sort of high-level PVE content solo, but it's just so useless in PVP thanks to the likes of Word of Faith. So one is going to be gimping themselves, one way or the other.